Loose crankshaft fan belt pulley

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Loose crankshaft fan belt pulley
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Young in Mays Landing, NJ on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 06:36 pm:

My crankshaft pulley has been rattling around since l got the car and l finally broke down and bought one of the aluminum split-pulleys from Lang's. It arrived yesterday and l was rather disappointed to see that it uses a large roll pin in lieu of the standard solid pin/cotter setup.

l have never been a fan of huge roll pins. l work on a lot of heavy equipment and am very familiar with how difficult they can be. This afternoon, l got into to doing the swap, and stopped mid way through, because of how much force it is taking to beat that pin into place. The thought of beating on the crankshaft, and the babbit which supports it, makes me cringe. Further, knowing that someday l will have to remove this pin, has me here, asking for advice.

Do l take it out and forget the aluminum pulley all together, and try another steel pulley for fit on my crank, and stick with the original solid pin. Or are there other options to hold this bugger in place? Also, l hand crank this car most of the time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 07:46 pm:

Guess you can make a tool that presses the roll pin in place?
I'm thinking about a strap of steel going around the alu pulley, overlapping over the end of the pin - holes in each end of the strap. A nut and a bolt completes the pusher - the nut on the inside of the strap steel loop and the screw coming from the outside pushing at the roll pin as you screw it in. No more banging on the babbitt and you may use the same technique for disassembly, should it ever be needed.
(No idea if the roll pin will hold up for lots of hand crank starting)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 08:03 pm:

Think the roll pin is probably OK if you can insert it correctly.

I find that the pin is a bit skinny for the claw of a well used crank ratchet.

You can use a new solid pin sold for std pulley, that is what is in this one. Placed it with a punch, on one side it didn't want to go all the way thru the alum pulley hole, but went in far enough. Cotter pinned it, then tightened down on the set screw and the pulley is fast on the crank, and the solid pin can't go anywhere.



Another with the roll pin, seems to work OK, but the crank ratchet used was a real nice almost NOS and the claw fit on the roll pin OK.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Young in Mays Landing, NJ on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 08:21 pm:

Dan,
l'm guessing that you installed the cotter pin without the radiator in place, right? The working space of the alum pulley looks mighty tight for getting the cotter installed. l think that's the route that l'm gonna take. The thought of getting that roll pin out later, if l need to get to the cam gear, or do other work, really has me worried.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 08:40 pm:

Have done it both ways.

On a '26 Tudor with a really rattling pulley, the old one slipped off fine with the radiator still in place.

Just removed the hand crank and ratchet and fan belt.

Fitted on the split alum pulley with ease. Then spanked the solid pin in place, rather easy, but then I used a very long drift pin. Tightened down the alum pulley allen set screw with long allen key. Cotter pin went in with angled needle nose.

Made sure when I smacked in the pulley pin, the cotter hole was in alignment for easy placement of the cotter pin. Spread the pin with a bent tip screwdriver.

5 minute driveway fix . wearing overalls like Steve Jelf does:-)




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Young in Mays Landing, NJ on Sunday, November 25, 2012 - 08:26 am:

Overalls make anything easier.
1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Sunday, November 25, 2012 - 09:49 am:

FWIW I had exactly the same problem with my old (original) pulley. Couple pieces of brass shim stock and all is good.

Original look, easy pin insertion, and low $. Its a cheapie fix and if I have to reshim in a few years, no big deal.

schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bamford, Edmonton AB on Sunday, November 25, 2012 - 09:56 am:

Some previous owner of my '26 touring made sure that dang pulley would never again rattle on the crankshaft:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Young in Mays Landing, NJ on Sunday, November 25, 2012 - 10:25 am:

Wow. Weld it on? Thats a shame! Bud, the brass shim sounds great. I already spent the 50 bucks on this dumbass thing so it looks like i'm going to drill a new cotter hole in my old pin and use that with the aluminum pulley.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Sunday, November 25, 2012 - 10:43 am:

The roll pin is tapered slightly, i measure the narrow end and paint that side red,it goes in easier and when you need to take it out you know which way to push.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Young in Mays Landing, NJ on Sunday, November 25, 2012 - 10:48 am:

Rick,
I didn't realize it had a narrow end. Mine is half way in and l decided to stop because it was needing a "larger hammer" to make it keep going. Did yours take excessive force to install when you did narrow-end first?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Sunday, November 25, 2012 - 10:51 am:

Dave, no it did not you still have to drive it in but i use a small claw hammer.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Sunday, November 25, 2012 - 12:03 pm:

About 20 years ago I did a motor for a customer. He drove it for 4 or 5 year occasionally. He sold the car to another person. the New owner and I took off for Sterling, Colorado. When we got there the new owner said he had rod knocking. I listened and sure enough he had a bod knock. For some reason I reached down and twisted the crankshaft pulley. It was loose as could be. We drove back home with it knocking and when I got back I took it into my shop and installed JB Weld. The JB Weld has held to this day with no looseness

picture


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Sunday, November 25, 2012 - 12:05 pm:

About 20 years ago I did a motor for a customer. He drove it for 4 or 5 year occasionally. He sold the car to another person. the New owner and I took off for Sterling, Colorado. When we got there the new owner said he had rod knocking. I listened and sure enough he had a bod knock. For some reason I reached down and twisted the crankshaft pulley. It was loose as could be. We drove back home with it knocking and when I got back I took it into my shop and installed JB Weld. The JB Weld has held to this day with no looseness

picture


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Sunday, November 25, 2012 - 12:09 pm:

About 20 years ago I did a motor for a customer. He drove it for 4 or 5 year occasionally. He sold the car to another person. the New owner and I took off for Sterling, Colorado. When we got there the new owner said he had rod knocking. I listened and sure enough he had a bod knock. For some reason I reached down and twisted the crankshaft pulley. It was loose as could be. We drove back home with it knocking and when I got back I took it into my shop and installed JB Weld. The JB Weld has held to this day with no looseness

picture


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Sunday, November 25, 2012 - 12:35 pm:

The original stamped steel "stock Ford" pulley is made of two pieces welded together. The outside surface and back of the pulley is a stamping. The tubular piece that presses over the crank shaft is a piece of tubing. The tubing is friction welded to the stamping to make the assembly we recognize as the standard "stock" crank pulley.

Assuming nobody has hammered on the pulley or bent it up:

Simply set the pulley up in a four-jaw chuck on the lathe and cut out the center "tubing" section, leaving the diameter suitably sized for a piece of replacement tubing.

Obtain a suitable size of D.O.M. tubing, or whatever other suitable stock you have laying around. Turn it to the appropriate outside diameter, insert into the bored out pulley, line up and weld in place with your wire-feed welder. Then set the pulley up again in your four jaw chuck and finish by boring the tubular section to sufficient size to be a good press fit on your crank shaft. Set up in the drill press and Re-drill the pin hole.

It is a fairly simple procedure for someone who is moderately equipped with basic machines. It is very basic lathe work and very basic welding. I'm sure you could even braze the new center in with good results.

I have often wondered why no-one has yet taken up the task of "rebuilding" these pulleys on an exchange basis. If you set up to do 20 or more at a time, I'm sure they could be sold far less expensively than a repro.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Young in Mays Landing, NJ on Sunday, November 25, 2012 - 12:45 pm:

Job Accomplished. I smacked the livin' hell out of the roll pin to REMOVE it with a brass drift from below. It was less than half way in and was up to a 5 lb sledge at that point. I miked it and found it to be far too large, even in it's compressed state. Must be made in China crap.

My old pin was in decent shape and had enough "deformations" in it to drive nicely into the aluminum pulley with a 2 pound hammer and a brass drift. I felt no need to cotter pin it, given the tightness of the fit.

Also, to get the pulley onto the crank required grinding a bevel on the outer edge of the aluminum as to clear one of the pan rivets. Lang's catalog states that this pulley can only be installed with the block removed from the pan... It's odd that the manufacturer doesn't bevel it as part of his machining process.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Sunday, November 25, 2012 - 01:07 pm:

If the hole is standard, and not wore, we take the role pin and anneal it.

Then it is put in a vice, and the slot is closed up, and a Hacksaw is run down through the slot, and then, the vice tightened, and done again.

It still pushes in right, but there is now room for the pin to close up with out running out of room, and start smashing the pin.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Young in Mays Landing, NJ on Sunday, November 25, 2012 - 01:17 pm:

Excellent, Herm! Can you explain how to anneal/soften the hardened pin so that the hacksaw can recut the gap? Why can't the vendors push the parts suppliers to package components that fit out of the box?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Sunday, November 25, 2012 - 02:12 pm:

http://steamshed.com/annealing%20process.html


Go to this sight, and I won't have to do so much two fingered typing.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Monday, November 26, 2012 - 10:05 am:

Thanks for that reference Herm

schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Monday, November 26, 2012 - 10:42 am:

Herm,
If you anneal the roll pin without re-hardening it, you will make the roll pin useless. Roll pins rely on the springiness to hold them in position. It would make more sense to just use a solid pin with cotter pin as original.

A spring pin (also called tension pin or roll pin) is a mechanical fastener that secures the position of two or more parts of a machine relative to each other. Spring pins have a body diameter which is larger than the hole diameter, and a chamfer on either one or both ends to facilitate starting the pin into the hole. The spring action of the pin allows it to compress as it assumes the diameter of the hole. The radial force exerted by the pin against the hole wall retains it in the hole, therefore a spring pin is considered a self retaining fastener.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, November 26, 2012 - 12:10 pm:

Jim, I have been putting role pins in every kind of hole in farm machinery, and Model T front pulleys since I was a Kid, and when I read your post, and you say Annealing makes the roll pin useless, that tells me you have never tried it, so much for your on hands experience!

If you don't anneal the pin, it is very hard on a Hacksaw Blade the saw the gap wider, and is very hard to close up the pin, with out annealing.

So, you can take a 3/8's roll pin and beat it to death, trying to get a over size pin in a smaller hole, or fix it.

Now if your pin hole is wore some, then you have to take the best choice, but if the hole is good shape standard, a standard 3/8's role is way to tight. But if you think you will make a roll pin useless, you need to go back to Roll pin School. I have never had one come out, and they are still hard to get put into place.

Your second paragraph in your post there looks like it came out of a Dictionary!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, November 26, 2012 - 02:01 pm:

Never had a problem with the pulley roll pin. I usually grind a nice taper on one end to help lead it in. Also, you need to have a punch that is only slightly smaller in diameter than the hole you're putting the pin in or the punch will tend to swell out the end of the pin, as it tries to enter into its hollow center, making it even harder to install.

If I had to anneal a roll pin, clamp it down, recut the groove, try it out, etc. etc. I would sooner sell the car! I will admit however to grinding the groove wider with an abrasive cutoff wheel on a die grinder. I don't recall however that it was for a T fan pulley.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, November 26, 2012 - 02:12 pm:

Since you brought up too much work to fix correctly Jerry I'll say I can't get past that welded pulley. Had to be some guy selling the car & didn't want to be bothered.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, November 26, 2012 - 04:38 pm:

No, Jerry, the way you explained it is the way you might do it!

I anneal it takes about 10 minutes, to cool, I don't clamp it down, just put it in the vice, slot up, and make a saw cut, and pull the vice tighter, and make another saw cut, and sand blast it, and put it in, takes longer to type this, and it fits every time.

I don't have to try it out, Ect., Ect.

And I can take it out, and replace it again with out beating it all to H., and no eye ball precision grinding.

Besides, while we have a shade tree, we use the shop.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J and M Machine Co Inc on Monday, November 26, 2012 - 06:29 pm:

Quote"I have often wondered why no-one has yet taken up the task of "rebuilding" these pulleys on an exchange basis. If you set up to do 20 or more at a time, I'm sure they could be sold far less expensively than a repro"

Due to the fact that these pulleys'have been beat on and abused/distorted/rusted.

We make the new ones so that the hub portion is approximately .010" smaller so you can fit it to your worn crank.
http://www.jandm-machine.com/modelTPulleys.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 12:36 pm:

J & M,

You've hit on why nobody rebuilds them. The crank is most always worn to some random size and to rework the pulley to factory specs would be useless. Your .010 under pullies still require someone with possibly limited machining ability to resize them. The split aluminum version "fits-all" as it can be clamped down to whatever diameter the crank is at.

Not to bash your pullies however. They're very nicely made and look way better than the aluminum ones, which I'll admit, are a bit ugly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 03:43 pm:

We grind the pulley and seal area when we do the mains, and check the rear flange for run out.

Just about all of the cranks I have seen, are wore enough, that the Aluminum pulleys wobble when tightened down.

We brass the inside of the pulley, and cut a new crown on the out side, we fill the pin hole 2/3rd's full, and re bore for the pin, and the pulley runs straight, and the belt true center, and does not keep trying the climb a flange, and fray the belt.

I don't have any problem with Aluminum pulleys, but it still is fix me now, or fix me later.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Wolf on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 04:39 pm:

Like Dan said in his post, I replaced the pulley with that alum one in a campground without removing the radiator.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 05:38 pm:

I kinda like the looks of the flanged pulley, heck,...these have been around a long time fixing Fords with flinging fan belts. :-)

IMG_9393.JPG


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J and M Machine Co Inc on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 06:08 pm:

Jerry:
Thanks for the comments and no offense taken.
When someone is having us restore an engine for them they don't want the Aluminum one. "it's ugly" is the comment we hear as well.


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration