What was the original type of wood used by Ford for the floors? I've looked at the catalogs and all I see is plywood. Does anyone make these the correct way?
Early brass car floor boards were made from ASH only and it was specified on the prints. As the years rolled by and production increased the allowed wood species was added to on a continuous basis until even HEDGE was allowed. By end of production it would seem that just about anything that looked or felt like wood was used.
RV Andersons brother Jonathan makes floor boards original style in ash, just like Dave Sosnoski. Dave sells his hardwood floor boards through Lang's: http://www.modeltford.com/model-t-parts/floorboards/floorboard-sets/
Wouldn't it depend on what type of wood the suppliers sent their parts to Ford in? I was of the understanding that Ford used the crates his parts came in for a lot of the wood parts of his cars...
I took an old pallet apart and used linseed oil on each board. Looks like they're as old as the car.
Actually Danial that story is bull shit. It gets repeated a lot though.
Ah, no kidding. I've even seen it repeated here without challenge.
Well rats...I've been passing that tall tale along like it was gospel.
I really hate it when I do that.
It may be a tall tale, but we all know that Ford was very thrifty in saving a $, I would hate to think what quality of wood packing crates were and then disregarded, if he was paying good dollars for the crap wood that ended up under the seats of veteran T's from Canada.
Oh well, Danial. When I got into this hobby, that story was believed to be true by almost everyone. I have even been known to tell it a few times. About twenty years ago, serious doubt started to creep in, and no real supporting evidence has been found that I have heard of. No wonder that I am so cynical.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
So where did that wood come from?
I always heard that story too Danial And I heard his charcoal briquets were made from the shipping crate wood too. Actually as I recall I read it on the Ford Barn Forum and nobody challenged it there. I mentioned it on this forum once and was treated like I'd pissed on the MTFCA charter. A little intolerance is a beautiful thing. The other one that gets me is Henry Ford's quote or misquote whether true or not is this whole thing of Big Henry saying you can have a ford painted any color you want as long... I've heard experts from both sides claim he did say it and he didn't say it. Until someone can look at me and say they heard him say it and can provide undeniable proof he said it, he didn't say it. And I've been hearing that line of crap since I was very young. And a little intolerance goes a long way.
Ford owned a whole lot of the UP of Michigan, like nearly the whole county of Baraga. At about the end of the brass era, Ford Motor was using about 150 million board feet a year both in cars, and his other enterprise needs. Owning his own forest just made sense.
I think the charcoal story is a myth about using shipping crates. I do believe that when taking down so many trees every day they got tired of bonfires over the stumps and the hazards, so just took all the cuttings and first cut bark, and stumps, and ground them up for the charcoal mix. I'm not too sure what the yield was back then in forestry, but a number like 60-70% wouldn''t surprise me, that left 30-40% for 'other'.
Danial,
The wood comes from trees!
I am glad someone finally disputed the idea that floor boards were made from packing crates. All my Ts have original floor boads. None of the boards look like any crate material I have ever seen. The boards in the crates would have to have been very wide and thin with NO NAIL HOLES !!! I don't know what material was used back in those days but now days all the wood I see in crates are cheap pine or cotton wood
I have to agree that they were not crates, wood is to nice and no nail holes or banding marks. Now my parents house was a different story. It was an early 1800's farm house with an addition. Every board on the "new" section was plastered with Bethlehem steel logos and nail holes everywhere.Back then nothing was wasted.
I think the boards on my '26 sedan are original. They're tongue and groove and other than the fact they're painted black kind of look like flooring. I haven't really looked at them to decide what type of wood they're made from (mostly because I don't care).
Ford had a large gasifier at the plant so i would imagine that most of the scrap packing crates and pallets were used to maintain some of the steam required to make parts.
Rick
Original floorboards on my '24 touring
(I added the nails on the top side into the stringers.)
Stringers nailed to boards from underneath.
Ford process of mfg floorboards, they used fresh stock, not packing crates from goodness sakes!
Ford Shops photo
Dan: Thanks for posting those photos of correct '24-5 floorboards. I especially like the fact they show the draft deflector that they used. When I put my '25 pickup together, I was able to use NOS floorboards that I found at Hershey, and they were black. It appears they used a black stain on them. I also have a bottom floorboard from an earlier year that has never been painted.
FYI...
A friend of mine has a very low mileage early '23 touring car. (wood fire wall, low radiator, non-demountable wheels, no starter, but regular '23-'25 body style). I know how "original" floorboards are constructed and I have no doubt that his floorboards are "original".
One of the front floorboards has a partial stencil on the back side... The stencil says: "Simplex Mfg Co Kansas City"
Anybody have any ideas why Ford would have put that stencil on the back side of the floorboards? Yes, I suppose some "T nut" decades ago thought it would be a neat idea to put that stencil there to support some fictitious story they want to perpetuate, but I don't know if I buy it... Why would someone go to the effort of creating a forgery of such a small detail on a car that was never restored and very likely never even was shown since the original owner had it?
All the people who had the car prior to him (2 owners since the original owner that we know of) didn't do any work to the car except strip some original paint off the body. Car had never been restored prior to him buying it...
Floorboards from a '27...not exactly even cut boards as you can see. Some are wider at one end but all were tongue and groove.
Adam:
"Simplex" on the floorboard of a 23 coupe is mentioned in this thread:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/79903.html?1233059301
"Mengle" on a floorboard is also mentioned in the thread. I also found another thread where someone else mentioned having Mengle stenciled on a floorboard.
In the case of Mengle, it appears that may have been the manufacturer of the floorboard rather than recycling wood from a crate. That may be the same case with Simplex.
It may have made more economic sense to have certain components such a floorboards manufactured locally and near the assembly branches, rather than manufacturing them in Detroit and shipping them to the branch.
Hedge?!? Osage orange?!? How could you get any nails or screws into that?
Royce, I have an original magnet set shipping container that has the address painted on the back side to Ford Motor Company, Selbyville, Delaware and also Notify W. C. Highman. There is number painted on the inside of that same wood, which kind of suggests that wood was reused, if not for floorboards. All the wood pieces are hardwood and have a few cracks from the nails.
There is some interesting information in the book " Today and Tomorrow " published in 1926 . Henry Ford in collaboration with Samuel Crowther. A follow on from his first book " My Life and Work " A very interesting chapter titled " Saving the Timber " is a real insight into his thinking on conserving and reusing timber.
Regards, John
Here's an old thread discussing how Ford could join random short bits of wood into whole boards with the Linderman Automatic Dovetail Glue Jointer:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/233010.html?1314939430
These are 5/8" Poplar. That was the depth measurement I got from the rear ledge to the top of the steel flooring. Right at the base of the front seat. They are an exact fit for this car and probably wouldn't fit into another Touring. The fit is that close. Clear coated them for protection. Didn't want to paint 'em. Rock solid.
Forgot to mention: if you look closely at the top most board on the right side you can see a faint pencil line. That is the length of the cheap replacement plywood boards that were in the car when I got it.
Regarding Floor Boards:
1. As John Regan mentioned, originally they were only made of Ash. Later, they allowed just about any type of wood. By late 1925 or so, they were even using plywood.
2. Ford did not use shipping boxes for floor boards. As mentioned in the article above, the wooden crates which came into the plant were recycled into other wooden crates for shipping product out of the plant. They had a whole department dedicated to salvaging the wood and building shipping crates.
3. The Record of Changes for the floor boards indicated that the floor boards were to be supplied by the body manufacturer. So for the majority of bodies, Ford did not even make the floor boards.
4. Ford owned huge forests at Iron Mt. By 1924 or so he had moved all of the manufacturing of wood parts to Iron Mt so that he was receiving only finished usable product at Highland Park. The Cost Accounting Records for the 1925 Coupe indicates where every part for the car comes from. They specifically mention the floor boards are provided by Iron Mt. This would be for the bodies which Ford was assembling at the branch plants. For the bodies it was receiving from other manufacturers those manufacturers would provide the floor boards.
5. In the case of the Mengle Mfg. Co. floor boards, these came out of my original 1924 Coupe. Mengle Mfg. Co was a supplier of wood parts, and I've found references that they were a supplier of wood parts to the Briggs Mfg. Co. The Coupe I have was built by Briggs so this is consistent with the floor boards being supplied by the body manufacturer.
6. The usual story is that Ford had his suppliers ship their product in wooden crates built to specific sizes with odd seemingly unnecessary holes and such. When they arrived at the plant, the crates would be knocked apart and used as the floor boards. If you look at a set of original floor boards it is very apparent that this can not be the case. The floor boards have no extra holes where the nails or screws would have been to hold the crate together. With the angles and such of the floor boards, there is no way you can make any type of crate from them. The boards would have to go through an entire manufacturing process to produce the floor boards from the crate wood which would include cutting to shape, installing the splines in the edges, nailing on the cleats, etc. There is no documentation showing that this was being done. The documentation shows that the wood was used to create other shipping crates.
Dave S.
Nice floor, Charlie. Mine may still be original, but I have no way of knowing for sure.
Lots fo great information, as always, from you gurus. I love this place.
I have one of those magnet shipping boxes. They were used to ship the core set of magnets to a recharging shop. In the case of your box they were taking the cores back to Ford Motor Company, Selbyville, Delaware and also Notify W. C. Highman.
Ford still has regional rebuilding sites for engines and transmissions. No doubt they still re use shipping containers to get the core back too.
Again, Ford did not have time to make floorboards from scrap materials. That bull shit story has been debunked many times Danial. Let it go.
Yep. Got it, Royce. Thanks.
Agree with Royce about the boxes. I've seen a picture of the eng/trans crated up with the pedals sticking up out of the rear slanted portion of the crate. The obvious conclusion (Knowing HF) was that that piece of the box became part of the floor and the top of the crate was supposed to be the rear floor section. Apparently total bunk. Danial: that finger hole was the one thing I didn't do because it wasn't there on the plywood floor. The replacements fit so close it would have been handy for removal.
Maybe those Dr's Coupe's had floor boards made from shipping crates since all Model T's were painted black.
Just kidding!!!
Out of 4 Model T's, I've had to make floorboards for two of them. It's a lot of fun to do and rewarding too. By making them myself, I was able to control the fit a lot better. I used floor boards from known original cars as patterns.
Searching for Linderman and wood on the Internet came up with some interesting information.
The Linderman machine was developed in 1905, as described on the Butcher Block website.
Interesting enough, the name also appears to be a job description. My Career provides this list of duties for a Linderman:
More on Bert A. Linderman of Muskegon, Michigan:
From the Vintage Machinery website is this ad for the machine in 1909-12:
Google also has copies of his various patents for wood working machinery available on line.
Patent 944489
Patent 1052600
Patent 1651897
A bit about modern (?) pallets. Along about the '50's, '60's, a man showed up at my Grandmother's door and wanted to buy all the old cottonwood trees she had, he was going to build a pallet factory close by, and wanted only cottonwood. We had some monsters, that country (Texas Gulf Coast) had a high water table, rich soil and etc., so they grew into the biggest cottonwoods I ever saw. The two biggest ones were easily 100' tall, and 6' or better at the stump, if we had had any sense, we would have gotten someone from the State to come out and measure them, there was a movement for awhile to find the biggest of all kinds of trees in Texas. At the time, I was very familiar with the "standard" oilfield drilling rig derricks, they were everywhere, and were about 100' - 110'+ tall, so I had something to kind of go by. These two were growing in what we called a "slough", so they had water and plenty of it year 'round, the others were down in the creek bottoms, plenty of water available to them. My Grandmother said they were there and that big when they first came on the place in the mid 1800's, so they were old. We had often talked of trying to climb one, but the lowest limbs were way up, there just wasn't any way. Anyhow, he bought them, and I griped a lot about it, but they weren't mine. I remember one cracked pretty bad when it hit, but he cut it up anyway. So, pallets, at least some of them, were made out of cottonwood, and it was pretty wood, clear and no knots at all.
Hardwood is used in pallets for hauling really heavy stuff. My neighbor made them into roof shingles. They lasted 25-30 years.
Interesting thread.
Grady Puryear:
They are still making a lot of pallets out of cottonwood. I rewooded a couple of Ts out of pallet cotton wood. Every piece was pallet wood except the main cills. An elevator in the town I lived in gave me all the pallets I wanted for free. I really liked using cottonwood because it was softer than oak but still good and strong. When I used oak I would have to drill a hole for every screw, but with cotton wood a lot of the time I did not have to drill a hole. One of the Ts was a 24 touring and every single piece of wood had to be cut. I could not use even one piece of the original wood.
Years ago before railroad retirement , I obtained a couple of pallets that had come from one of the many intermodal containers that come into the Ports of Seattle & Tacoma. Apparently, at least back then, pallets that were built in Asian countries were made out of whatever wood was cheap & plentiful in whatever Asian country. I knocked the pallets apart and stored the rough cut lumber away for possible future use as I'm sure it is some variety of mahogany. Very rough cut as I said, however, beautiful grain of a sort of purple color. Have never done anything with this lumber as I've always been reluctant to run any of it thru' a planer as one remaining but unseen nail could spell disaster for planer blades. Anybody ever used or know anything about such rough cut mahogany pallet lumber from China or wherever?
Harold, Phillipine is not a variety of mahogany; it is a bamboo, of which there are hundreds of varieties. Entire forests are being clear cut over there, so you could have almost anything, including farm grown mahogany, but that's not so likely.
Monterey Pine is endangered in Calif, but is grown commercially in New Zealand. Good for them.
rdr
Many crates from Asia were made of Luan, it looks identical to mahogany as far as grain and color but it is prone to quick rot.
Thanks Ralph & Don - As I mentioned, the stuff is very "rough cut" as you'd expect for pallet construction, but it seemed very dense and heavy and interesting grain pattern and sort of lighter and darker shades of a sort of purple color. Haven't seen the stuff for years, 'cause it has become buried in a storage unit with all kinds of other stuff, so I'm going from memory here. I just put it away at the time for future use, thinking that it might have been still somewhat "green" (which might account for why it seemed heavy at the time). One thing's sure; if I dig down to wherever the stuff has been stored for years, it's certainly dry by now! As far as "rot" Don, what I had in mind was small items like cribbage board type things and such. I'll bet some folks into the "wood turning" hobby have used stuff like this,.......??? This interesting thread just sort of jarred my memory,.......harold
Jim - I realize we've drifted away from your original question, however as Ralph Ricks mentioned, it has resulted in some interesting discussion,....and not politics either! I do think that you got some good feedback though Jim,....prior to the thread drift,......harold
I wonder what Ol'bama would use.
hahahaha...and there you go...
Danial, this is serious. For all you know Ole Hank might of used balsa.
Harold,
Sounds like the wood I used from a piano crate to make some replacement parts for a Grand piano. It cut beautifully and finished as nicely too--however, I had to wear a mask, as the sawdust was very acidic. I think you'll be very happy with anything you create out of the wood, the grain is very pretty.
T'
David Dewey
Until you get to some modern composite, nothing is as strong for its weight as wood. And no wood is as strong for its weight as balsa.
Yes, wood is a composite.
Purple wood from Africa at Austin Hardwood in Santa Ana. VERY expensive.
Shagbark Hickory at Tim Moore's place. The standard for wheel spokes.
Hickory