Old Photo. Ladies in a T Glen Innes NSW

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Old Photo. Ladies in a T Glen Innes NSW
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dane Hawley Near Melbourne Australia on Sunday, November 25, 2012 - 04:02 am:




Title "Model T Ford at Avondale - Glen Innes, NSW"

Library of NSW


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Monday, November 26, 2012 - 04:59 am:

Nice photo, a rare 1917 fully imported Canadian car prior to the embargo decision of August 1917.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, November 26, 2012 - 08:22 am:

David,

I'm still trying to understand this photo a little better. My initial thought was 1917 also because of the black radiator and the horn button on the steering column (although on Canadian production the horn button on the top of the steering column continued for a few more years). I was thinking someone removed the cowl lights for some reason. But as I zoom in on the photo, I cannot really say for sure if it does or does not have the brackets for the cowl lights. They may be there but at such an angle they are hard to see in the photo. Or that may just be the tree limbs/leaves in the photo. I’m not sure. Below is a zoomed in photo of that area.



Favor to ask – would someone with a 1917-1922 touring that has the straight windshield, has the cowl light bracket but without a cowl light mounted – please take a similar photo from that angle and post it for comparison. (Canadian models had the slant windshield earlier and the slant windshield cars do not have the cast in side lamp brackets permanently attached to the windshield bracket. Also the 1915-early 1917s used a riveted windshield bracket and that would be a little different – so I would prefer a 1917-1922 style windshield bracket). I may be able to do that [I have a 1918 with the brackets we are looking for and the cowl lights are off -- but it may take me a little while to get back to the shed where it is located. [Ever notice that whichever car you put in the shed far away is the one you have a question about?]

Or if someone with better photo editing skills could look at the photo and see if they can clearly see if the side lamp bracket is or is not there? One of the disadvantages of a single photo we cannot just walk around to the front and see what it looks like from there.

David Roberts’ book is recommended reading for folks with a Canadian 1904-1923 Ford – and also great for anyone wanting additional information on how Ford of Canada came into being and operated 1904-1923 or so. It is available on line at: http://books.google.com/books?id=THOyZ5JwkEQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=david+roberts+in+the+shadow+of+detroit&source=bl&ots=8aP3OYrq9i&sig=Dqf-ga3FnFvIs-59XwpdoeeWB6c&hl=en&ei=8PSiTdqjJ4abtwfxuPiJAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false and from various book sellers. On page 68 he has a chart of Ford Canada export sales listed by their fiscal year 1 Aug – 31 Jul up until 1920 when they switch to listing them by calendar year. That was provided by Kevin Mowle Top line is the number of Passenger Cars, second line is the number of Chassis and third line is the number of Trucks sold to Australia.




Assuming that the car is as it came from the factory – then I believe it would be one of those 551 complete cars that was imported sometime between 1 Aug 1919 and 31 Jul 1920 and that it was a starter equipped car but without demountable rims. I do not think it would have gone into the 1 Aug 1920 to 31 Dec 1920 area as it appears to me to also have a double wishbone on the car. [Note Bruce on page 279 when discussing USA cars comments, “Another interesting enigma on a 1919 sedan; the car has the earlier-style front radius rods with an accessory lover brace. This car (engine) was built in July 1919, at which time it is believed that all cars had the newer (below the axle) radius rods. Possibly the car was built at a branch and used up the last of the old stock, or the front axle assembly has been changed. The accessory brace has been seen on many Fords from 1917 to 1919 and could have been a Ford-supplied item. ] (Hap’s comment – we do not know if Ford Canada was on the same or different time line for the new below the axle wishbone.)

Of course we know that most Model Ts did not remain as they came off the assembly line. In which case I would still suspect it could be one of those 1 Aug 1919 to 31 Jul 1920 complete cars that were sold to Australia [assuming it does not have the sidelight brackets -- caution from memory most Canadian cars were produced with starters once they became available -- 80% sure that is mentioned in Kevin Mowles article on the Canadian Fords of 1920-21 or so.] Of course it could be as Dave proposed [and could easily be correct] one of the 432 complete cars imported between 1 Aug 1916 and 31 Jul 1917. It has the metal end caps and curved fenders in addition to the black radiator and hood so I do not think someone “modernized” a 1915-1916 car although it could be the 1917 that someone replaced the cowl lamp windshield bracket with one that did not have a cowl lamp bracket on it.

Great photo and I hope we can better clarify that it does or does not have the cowl lamp windshield bracket so I can sleep better at night.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, November 26, 2012 - 04:48 pm:

Hap,
Looking at your blow-up of the photo, I am 95% sure that it does have the bracket on the right hand side. I can make out a glint of the sun reflecting off the arc of the sidelight mount. I cannot see the left hand side enough to say.
It also appears to have the bolts holding the windshield into the windshield bracket, but the larger top section indicating 1917.
I would tell you to "sleep well", but I am sure someone will want to debate about it.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, November 26, 2012 - 04:50 pm:

By the way, Dane, Thanks to you for posting the photo!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Monday, November 26, 2012 - 06:35 pm:

Wayne

I agree that there are lamp sockets there but the lamps have been removed. I'll sleep well tonight.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, November 26, 2012 - 09:57 pm:

Oh to have slightly better eye sight.... or a higher resolution photo. Wayne, Bob, and of course David you could easily all be correct. I'm just trying to get it straight in my mind. I took some photos but I did not take a copy of the photo from the forum so I did not get it lined up as close as I would like to. I'll give it another try later and if it helps confirm anything one way or the other, I will post a note.

David -- one other thought -- even if it does have the windshield bracket with the side lamp bracket -- could it be a car imported from say 1 Aug 1919 to early 1920 when the electrical option was limited primarily to closed cars? Just a thought. Would the style of the top rest help date the year of the car? I.e. it appears to have that "T" on the clamp.

Respectfully submitted, [I'll post more tonight if I have troubles sleeping.]

Hap l915 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Monday, November 26, 2012 - 11:09 pm:

Here is an ad from February 1918. It now shows the new style Ford. In David Robert's list you will note he claims no complete cars were delivered in 1917-18, 1918-19.

Ads featuring the new style Ford appeared in newspapers during these time periods. Seems strange that they would advertise them if only chassis were imported during that time. It appears there may be doubt that the Robert's list is accurate.

1918 new Ford

The drawing just happens to be about the same view as Dane's photo. It shows the side lamps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 12:16 am:

1920 TREVAN ADD [for what it's worth]


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 01:37 am:

Picture of 1917 T.s ?? in front of our dealership. [note varies bodies]


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 02:21 am:

Love the smiles all around too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 02:40 am:

Peter, I also think the statement that none arrived is also incorrect. Here are just a couple of photos from the State Library of South Australia...

B45085/51

and

PRG280/1/29/300

Note: South Australian registration number 10,000 (that went to Duncan & Fraser Limited on a Ford) was January 1918. As this car was registered prior I can't see it being anything other than a 1917. The photo was taken during the week long November 1918 Adelaide Tram Strike that was resolved on the 20th of that month.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 03:52 am:

As David noted, the car appears to be 1917. To further support this, the felloes appear to be rounded. Did not they become square in the 1918 year models? Reg No 9877 also appears to have rounded felloes.

FWIW. Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 04:04 am:

Wasn't there a picture posted of a T with the fan shield with a guy in Army uniform not long ago?
can't find it but someone may know where it is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dane Hawley Near Melbourne Australia on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 04:08 am:

For you Peter-


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 04:28 am:

Thanks Dane,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 08:24 am:

Allan -- yes, the round felloe wheels would also date it as a 1917 rather than 1920. Ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels where Bruce has, “The felloes were changed to “square” instead of being rounded, apparently in late 1917 or early 1918 according to a letter dated April 16, 1918 at the Ford Archives.”

I went by the shed and took a couple of more photos. They are not exactly what I wanted -- but I could not move further back from the car. They do show clearly to me that from the angle of the original photo the rounded curve from the side lamp bracket would NOT be in the silhouette of the photo. Original photo on the left and my 1918 on the right which has the side lamps removed.



I was hoping that the photo would show that the rounded portion of the side lamp bracket would be silhouetted and therefore easy to see. But the photo has to be taken either more from the front or the rear for the rounded side lamp bracket to break the curve of the windshield bracket. Below the rounded lamp bracket is clearly silhouetted but the photo is taken from more in front of the car.



Note also that the original photo (as well as our 1918) has the later unequal length windshield hinges while the two photos David posted B45085/51 and PRG280/1/29/300 with license plate 9877 both have the earlier style equal length windshield hinges. For the USA production that change over period (there would have been some overlap) is documented at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wshld 1917-1929
Similar to 1916 but about April 1917 the hinges had unequal arms so that when folded the upper half was above the lower. The mounting bracket was now separate and screwed to the windshield frame. (After about Feb. 1917.)” For the Canadian change over I do not have any documentation if anyone has some, please let us know. Or we may only have the “fossil record” of surviving cars to go on.

Great discussion – and I hope we can discover some additional information about if Ford of Canada did or did not send any complete cars to Australia between 1 Aug 1917 and 31 Jul 1919. And if they did, are we talking about one or two exceptions or 100s of cars?

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Norton on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 06:45 pm:

Possibly better resolution at http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/item/itemPopLarger.aspx?itemid=390645


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 07:08 pm:

Hap,
Although there doesn't appear to be any sign of how many T's were imported in 1917-18 there obviously was. Don't think there were many as shipping was in a terrible state at that time and all products especially produce were badly damaged by the problem.

There were 2 announcements about importing Fords at this time.
The first stated that cars ordered before August 1916 could be dispatched from the factory up until March 31st 1918.

The second says The date of prohibition of the import of bodies was August 10th 1917 and was extended to March 31st 1918.

The Government must have relented because of the war and distributors were caught short and needed extra time to be able to then assemble the chassis and supply local bodies.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 07:22 pm:

The better resolution is looking more like square felloe's also looks like top and bottom radius rods.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 09:01 pm:

Well spotted Kerry. The front wheel felloe does look square at the front edge. Interesting to note the use of canvas as the top material. When in New Zealand recently I saw a listing in a T parts book for canvas tops. This was of course a Canadian parts book.
Just for interest.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 09:26 pm:

The tires appear to be 30X3.5 all around and the head light rims seam to be Brass or nickel, is there any info. for these two things for exported cars around this time.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 05:54 pm:

Bob, to my knowledge, all, but perhaps some early cars, exported from Canada to Australia had 30 x 3.5 tyres all round. The nickel plated headlight rims were often a dealer option, usually with a plated radiator shell. Earlier cars have even turned up with all the brassware plated, including the radiator.
Later 20's cars built by various body builders in the different states had plated components as standard fitments. My 1924 Holden bodied tourer has plated headlight rims and radiator shell, as well as windscreen pillars and windscreen frames.

For your interest.

Allan from down under.


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