I suppose everyone is entitled to an opinion

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: I suppose everyone is entitled to an opinion
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Russell Prideaux on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 01:29 am:

http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/0,28757,1658545,00.html

Times 50 worst cars
T Model made number 2.
Mind you there are a couple of others on the list I would be more than happy to have in the garage as well


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 01:39 am:

"the Model T was a piece of junk, the Yugo of its day"

Geeze - from all the stories I have heard, it was a very reliable car......glad I don't believe everything I read.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Clipner-Los Angeles on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 02:34 am:

Yeah, and I liked the Gremlin too. And the Airflo was ahead of it's time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 02:50 am:

Normally the most common car of the day becomes the rarest because they were not "collectable" when just a used car. Been to car shows where james bond cars are everywhere, sportscars MG's litter the place, all ignored as the crowds gather in awe around a humble ford pop' or austin7. Elitists, lol.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Russell Prideaux on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 05:14 am:

Sadly (to my way of thinking) here in Australia many a T Model lost it's life to the Hot Rod craze of 20-30 years ago.

I guess they were easier to rod due to the huge network of reproduction and performance parts available.

Probably fair to say a "barn find" T Model is far more likely to see the road again than a lesser known make for similar reasons.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 07:28 am:

Just think: after all the other cars on the list are gone, there will still be Model T's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eubanks, Powell, TN on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 07:50 am:

The 2002 up T Bird is also on a current list. I have one on those and love it. Going on 80K miles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Manuel, Lafayette, La. on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 08:25 am:

The tone of the writer is what you would expect from the LA Times and Time Life. I'm surprised he didn't throw in global warming somewhere in there. Pulitzer prize winner----of course.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 08:33 am:

1909 Ford Model T
"Uh-oh. Here comes trouble. Let's stipulate that the Model T did everything that the history books say: It put America on wheels, supercharged the nation's economy and transformed the landscape in ways unimagined when the first Tin Lizzy rolled out of the factory. Well, that's just the problem, isn't it? The Model T — whose mass production technique was the work of engineer William C. Klann, who had visited a slaughterhouse's "disassembly line" — conferred to Americans the notion of automobility as something akin to natural law, a right endowed by our Creator. A century later, the consequences of putting every living soul on gas-powered wheels are piling up, from the air over our cities to the sand under our soldiers' boots. And by the way, with its blacksmithed body panels and crude instruments, the Model T was a piece of junk, the Yugo of its day."

There are quite a few things to disagree with in that statement


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Schrope - Upland, IN on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 08:45 am:

The guy is an idiot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 09:17 am:

I bet he doesn't walk to work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 09:20 am:

He probably works over the internet. If you read something there, it has to be true right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 09:56 am:

"Dan Neil, Pulitzer Prize-winning automotive critic and syndicated columnist for the Los Angeles Times, look at the greatest lemons of the automotive industry", is an elitist moron who probably drives a Chevy Volt when he isn't in the back of a cab.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 10:09 am:

Sounds like he's more PO'd about the car's putting the country on wheels, ect. than with the car itself. Black smithed panels? What the hell did he expect to find in 1909? Instruments? We don' need no stinkin' instruments. Good thing too cause there aren't any. The amp meter doesn't count. Half the people that bought an '09 thought it was a clock that was only right twice a day. If the list was 10 worst the T wouldn't be there. With 50 cars he's got a stack of foolscap to fill up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 10:11 am:

Whoops. That body was wood wasn't it? Just makes him more wrong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 10:21 am:

Junk? I'd be interested to see to see figures on the survival rate of the Model T compared to ALL General Motors cars of the same year. I've seen pictures of the 490, but I've never seen one in person.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 10:56 am:

A guy who obviously hates cars has no credibility as a car critic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 11:46 am:

I believe he is an elitist bourgeois who thinks the masses should be kept from stepping above their class. The Ford Model T did more for equality in the United States than any other inanimate object ever!
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 12:25 pm:

Heck, I don't even agree with him about the Edsel!

I worked for a guy who had 2 of them, as driver and boat Captain, and he and I both loved the Edsels. The only things bad you could say about them were that they were ahead of their times in a lot of ways, and of course the vaginal front end.

What a jerk this Time writer is!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 12:40 pm:

Will Rogers said it well in the 1930s. "With the Model T, we don't know if Henry Ford helped us or hurt us, but he sure didn't leave us where he found us."

This author made his list after the Model T was acclaimed the "Car of the Century." He probably felt compelled to give the other side that Will Rogers referred to, and it was a good deal tongue in cheek, I surmise.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Wolf on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 12:43 pm:

My uncle had 2 Edsels. A '58 Pacer and a '60, I think it was a Pacer also. Had the '60 Edsel for yrs. It was never titled. He ran it on a Dealer plate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 12:45 pm:

Me Me Me Me I have one!!!

I have an opinion about everything, including the author,
but I am trying to be kind so I'll just say that the idiot is slightly misguided! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 12:46 pm:

As I scrolled through the list of the "50 Worst" it made me wonder just how many makes and models have been produced (not counting one-of-a-kind, prototypes, home made, etc.) over the past 120 years. Most car manufacturers produced several models, and there have been a whole boatload of manufacturers. Must be somewhere around a zillion....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 12:55 pm:

Maybe it's my dial-up connection, but I don't see anywhere to post them to tell them what a dope this guy is!
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 01:10 pm:

Gustaf I aggree with you on that.
There are people that think you can live,work,play and all within walking distance of where you fell out of your mother.
Trouble is,the few places where life is that way,the family tree is mistaken for a telephone pole.
So apparently the guy writing this was from 1 of those areas.
When I can go dig parts out of the woods and put them back on the road,I would think that would signafy the car was built of quality materials and lasted much longer than intended.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 01:13 pm:

In partial answer to my own question I found in my Encyclopaedia Britannica the following:

"In 1898 there were 50 automobile-manufacturing companies in the United States, a number that rose to 241 by 1908."

I don't know how they arrived at those numbers, but I don't have any reason to disbelieve them. In any event, it seems Henry Ford had more competition than I thought when the T was introduced.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 01:27 pm:

David, this was written five years ago. Why would Time care now?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob from Nova Scotia on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 02:23 pm:

Steve. I have to agree. I confess I have SEEN one 1917 490, but own two t's, and could own dozens more, if my wifen would let me


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 02:51 pm:

Henry, one of Floyd Clymers books lists over 2200 different makes of cars. Some of the Dyke's manuals have lists of "orphan cars" that were no longer being made even in the 1920's that are very long.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 03:30 pm:

As Uncle Fletcher might say, Dort, Velie, Krit, Brush... All them cars.

Even sparsely populated states like Kansas (Smith and Jones) and Oklahoma (Geronimo) had car companies. A figure like 241 by 1908 is easy to believe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By scott thayer-Ohio on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 03:49 pm:

i see pinto was on there,pinto's rule


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 06:32 pm:

The is nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come. In other words: If Henry Ford hadn't done it, somebody else would have. Names like Henry M. Leland, Ransom E. Olds, Horace & John Dodge, Walter P. Chrysler and Alanson P. Brush come to mind. (But why do all these guys look like they belong on a box of cough drops?)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 06:59 pm:

Motoring writers played down the 1996 toyota corolla for not having stabilty control etc, while praising the 2006 ford mondeo that did, while chasing maoris that took my stuff i turned the toyota in a tight space because i could slide the wheels at will, mondog can't do that, it needs to do 20 point turns. Six years later all those mondeos fell apart but i still have that toyota.
(No, eloquent writing is not my strong point)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Wolf on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 08:34 pm:

Tell us in the states what a 2006 Ford Mondoe is compared to here in the U.S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 08:41 pm:

Richard - I think it's probably the same as a "Mondog",...ha,ha....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Clipner-Los Angeles on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 09:39 pm:

To quote my late father and his strong,St.Louis accent "LARD !! He's a HARSES ASS !! Lard, is there no hope for this SOB !!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 10:00 pm:

Fusion, Contour or Mercury Mystique.
Also related to the Jaguar X Type.
The Danish Police use Mondoes.
I have no opinion on them, but I am sure there are a few guys on here that have them with slightly under three million miles on them without ever having done any transmission.

I would have liked your Dad George.
At least he knew a harse's ahs when he seen one!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 10:07 pm:

Anyway it's MONDEO, not MONDOE.
It means world. Ford made it as a 'world car.'
The Chevette and K car were "World Cars".
We all know how they turned out.
I'd trust a model T before one of those turkeys.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Clipner-Los Angeles on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 12:41 am:

LIKE


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 12:58 am:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Mondeo#Second_generation no ford dealer mechanics i knew liked working on them. My parents told me i would be disowned if i bought one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 01:18 am:

Kep,
You may not write eloquently. However, I always look forward to reading your postings.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Borland. Bathurst. NSW. Australia. on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 01:28 am:

Have you noticed that these clowns do not refer to themselves as reporters anymore, they call themselves journalists. A reporter reports, a journalist can write whatever they feel is accurate, mostly their own skewed version of reality and opinion.

Peter


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 02:34 am:

Rick,
Five years ago?? Why are we even writing about it now then?? I thought it was a current article.
Dial-up is sooo much fun--NOT!
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Russell Prideaux on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 07:59 am:

Sorry about that. I did not realise the article was that old.
Still, I would have the Aston and Ferrari in a heartbeat given the chance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 09:52 am:

Original thread on this Forum:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/35576.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 10:10 am:

Both threads have gotten more attention than they should. But I'll join in simply because I always do. I'm going to be reincarnated in a hundred years and then go look for a restored yugo.

I've got a question that's totally out of line for this thread. Was the planetary design that Henry used his design or had it been around for awhile?

I doubt the yugo had anything that utilized new technology. Henry was a genius. We wouldn't have the yugo if Henry hadn't done what he did. I'm tired and trying to make a point but I'm not sure I'm doing a very good job of it. Please read between the lines.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 10:25 am:

The descendants of the man who patented the planetary in 1900 (1903?) as used by Ford have been on this Forum complaining Henry promised to pay $1 for each car for patent royalty, but never paid.

Henry had a thing about royalties.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 10:28 am:

The general two speed and reverse planetary design had been around for a while - almost all the US car manufacturers used it 1901-1908 c:a. Ford's claim to fame was to fully enclose it in an oil bath. After about 1910 Ford was the only one still using the design (I think)

There has been some threads on the forum on how Ford was forced to agree patent royalty payments to the original inventor George M. Ball - but we all know what he thought about paying royalties - the inventor didn't die rich :-(

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/126102.html?1266731235


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 10:42 am:

Roger thank you. The link was nice but kind of boring to read the agreement so I didn't get very far with it.

C'mon Ralph, Ransom was your cousin? Have you ever substantiated your claim on the forum. If you have give me a link. I think it would be interesting to read.

I'd make claims about the famous people in my family however they're famous for less than favorable conditions. It's hard to make claims if you were born on the iron range as I was. You're really not sure if your family heritage would be put on a family tree or a family wreath. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 10:53 am:

Thanks, Roger. I didn't remember writing all that..

My maternal grandmother's mother was Sarah Ann Olds-Johnson, born in Canada and immigrated to Nebraska. She was Ransom's first cousin, and visited him in Mich. at some point after he had made a success. Wifey has the genealogy somewhere.

Other than a line to the Mayflower, the French and Indian Wars, the War of Independence, and two GGF in the War to preserve the Union, I don't have too much of note. I also have two brothers who served in WWII. Too bad so much history is defined by wars.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 11:00 am:

Oh, one more thing, Mike:

Wifey's ancestor was accused in the Salem Witch Trials. My ancestor was one of her accusers.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 11:03 am:

I've got an unbelievable history involving my Dad, brother, cousins, myself and uncles who were involved wars from WW2 through Viet Nam. Lots of purple hearts. And now I have several nephews in Afghanistan and in and out of Iraq. Prior to WW2 I'm not sure if anyone fought or were veterans of anything. My Grandpa Baker went and signed up to go into WW1 but was bounced because of his flat feet (his words) a month later the armistice was signed. I wish I could make a claim I was related to someone like Ransom Olds or Hank Ford but no such luck. Although I can honestly say my Grandpa Garrison fathered up to 20 children that we know of. We met one of them just last summer who's in her sixties. They keep coming out of the woodwork. Not much of a claim to fame. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 11:07 am:

TO: rumbleseat@wsj.com (Dan Neil)

Dan,

Is the text you're reading, right now, black or white? At 12PM on a clear sunny day, is the sky blue or orange?

For you to name the 1909 Ford Model T as on the of "The 50 Worst Cars of All Time", the educated world would presume you're modern disciple of belligerence and revisionism.

Unlike all the generally ineffective, expensive systems born from the crisis construction you undoubtedly support, the Model T was born from the self-determination of individuals mostly free from the abrogation of government, fully accountable to competitors in a free market. Overall that machine outperformed the steam car, the electric car, and the horse.

Even in your ignorant, revisionist attack on the Model T, you are forced to acknowledge its success by incorrectly blaming the Model T for modern wars in foreign countries. Dan, those wars were fomented by politicians and governments; you know, those crisis constructors on whose boot heels you undoubtedly lick.

The Pulitzer Prize ain't what it used to be, and you're not fit to be an automotive critic/writer because you can't remove yourself from your own surrounding without belittling people and times you cannot understand. You're not about success -- you're a hypocrite of the lowest form because you criticize the toil of dead men who helped others succeed.

The editorial board at the WSJ should have you removed from their list of writers -- you're not good enough to write for them. But you're an incestuous fit for Time.

Frankly,

David


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 11:19 am:

Folks, I realize the Dan Neil's opinion is old, and that there's a lot of water under the bridge since then. But for him to express such a horrible opinion deserves reminders. This guy, Dan Neil, is a memorable idiot to be an "automotive critic". He's definitely no Eric Peters.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 11:20 am:

Yeah, what David said!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 12:44 pm:

So here's my email:

Your piece on the fifty worst cars was posted on a Model T forum recently, prompting this email and, presumably, others. I won't make assumptions about your political leanings, or hurl invective at your IQ or your ancestry. I'll just point out a fact in regard to your allegation that "the Model T was a piece of junk, the Yugo of its day". Incorrect. Simply compare the Model T survival rate to that of its competition. In 1916, the year Chevrolet introduced the Model 490 to compete with Ford, GM produced 62,898 Chevrolets of all models. Ford car production was 469,020. That's only about 7.5 times the number of Chevrolets. Fast forward to recent years. I think by now I've seen dozens of 1916 Fords, but I've never seen a 490 in person. Yes, there are a few, and I've seen pictures of some, but I've never laid eyes on one of those scarce survivors. If the Model T was such junk, why is its survival rate so much better than that of its rivals? Is it relatively simple? Yes. Inexpensive? Sure. Primitive? By the time production ended in 1927, yes. But junk? Hardly. The T's toughness and durability were a big part of its success, and your allegation to the contrary is just silly.

Steve Jelf
Parkerfield, KS


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 08:03 pm:

Yeah, what Steve said. Tell him Steve. And tell him his dog is ugly just to pee him off. And maybe tell me what some of those words you used mean.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 01:23 am:

Here's my letter:

Dear Mr. Neil,

Your mother wears brogans.

Most sincerely,
Danial

ps...neener neener
---------------------------
No not really, but there are times when you just feel like venting, especially when you're talking to someone who probably won't get the points you're trying to make in the first place.


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