Kevlar bands

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Kevlar bands
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ronnie Wehba on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 07:59 pm:

after about 30-40 miles my low pedal and reverse pedal are touching the floorboards, went to back out and it would barly move, so i shut it down, till i adjust the bands, what is the best way to adjust these kevlar bands,thanks ron,and yes we are having a blast in it!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 08:29 pm:

Congrats on getting it on the road.

Check the drums for cracks and turning color from overheat.

I wood buy a set of wood bands, and live worry-free in this regard.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 08:35 pm:

I take it that they are new bands? adjust buy the book, same as cotton ones, mine have been in ten years and only have had the one adjustment after the first few trips from when fitted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 09:17 pm:

Just follow Ford's method.

If adjusted too loose, the pedals will stick down when you press on them, and you will have to kick under with your toe or reach down and pull 'em back or Lizzie will keep on traveling in the direction of which pedal is stuck :-)

A couple of inches above the boards is about right, but that is if your boards are in the right place, and the slots in the board are made right, and the pedal stems aren't bent down too far!

Set 'em by looking into the inspection hole, that is best, chock a front wheel, lift up a rear wheel, set the bands so they 'look' right to you. Then push on the starter button, and watch it the drums turn over. See if there is too much grab as the trans spins over. You can tell easily if they are too tight.

Most times folks leave them too loose. That is bad, as then the linings won't grab tight, and the drum will spin on you, and that is what makes the linings glaze over or overheat the drums. If the linings do their work, and hold the drum from turning, all is well.



Read over the bottom left paragraph.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim moore on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 09:24 pm:

Kevlar bands may destroy your transmission and that not a question of if it can happen.

I see two ways to adjust:

#1--remove bands and replace kevlar material with something that will not superheat the transmission drums.

#2---try to adjust the kevlar material and hope for the best but you will not know until later. Either it will be fine or you will explode the transmission.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Wolf on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 09:37 pm:

So many "T" drivers really abuse the transmission when kevlar band lining is installed. My '14 still has cotton lining which I have replaced twice in 20 yrs. Of course, I don't drive as much as a lot of drivers do, but I don't Hot Rod my T's either.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 09:49 pm:

Tim, I love your fire truck, and your choice of fireman's dog. But are you sure you are not getting too close to the fire and that is superheating the trans drums?

I have used nothing but kevlar bands, ever since the first type supplied by the Custom Friction Company in 1989. In all that time I have replaced two cracked drums. One had cracked where the clutch driven plate bolts are threaded into the brake drum, an obvious weak point in the design, but of no consequence as it was replaced before any harm was done. The second was on a reverse drum, and the crack had "grown" to the band surface from a casting flaw in the web.

I adjust them initially so they just engage enough to do their job, the idea being to keep them away from the drum to let the oil circulate. This means a few adjustments initially as they are bedded in. Once this has been achieved, they rarely need any further adjustment.

I guess I must be lucky. All mine have fallen into the "will be fine" category.

I offer this experience only to give some balance to the doom and gloom scenarios often contributed to the use of kevlar bands. Perhaps it has something to do with the way they are used.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 10:07 pm:

Allan I agree with you, I have driven thousands of miles with kevlar bands and know of many others that have done the same with no trouble at all. I rebuilt the engine and transmission on my 24 Touring about 10 years ago. I installed Kevlar at that time. I have driven the car on several week long tours and countless other tours and just around the section countless times totaling thousands of miles. This fall I went through the engine and transmission to freshen it up. I found the drums and bands to be in excellent condition and re-installed the same kevlar bands. Steve Hughes just drove his car from Nebraska to San Diego and back this past summer with Kevlar bands that offered him absolutely no transmission trouble. I believe that if kevlar bands are properly adjusted and driven they will give very excellent service with no damage to the drums.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve McClelland on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 10:17 pm:

Allen
I agree 100% I'd say cracked drums has nothing to do with pedal riders, (right) my dad was always bad about slipping the bands by not applying enough pressure to fully engage low or reverse...! So for the folks that slip or ride the pedals you'll want to stay away from Kevlar bands. I put mine in 5 years ago and have only fine tuned them one time sense... They seem to be doing fine.
Kevlar haters kinda reminds me of all the gun advocates.... Guns don't kill people ! people kill people...! My pistol has never hurt anyone.. It just lays quietly on the night stand and doesn't bother anyone,with out my help!
Same for Kevlar bands they don't kill transmissions (people kill there transmissions from bad driving habits) although it's always nice to have something to blame our short coming's on, that's just human nature.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 10:49 pm:

I love it. The Kevlar argument reminds me of someone playing Russian roulette and saying it's safe, I haven't died yet!

What breaks the drums is high heat combined with a susceptable drum. Most very flawed, weak drums have been culled out of service decades ago by typical cotton bands. The remaining drums do great with cotton, and wooden bands and are safe to use. What we now have are a large number of great drums and some not so great. The great ones will tolerate lots of abuse. The not so great ones will do ok unless overheated. They have survived wood and cotton and will continue to do so. But overheat them, and currently only Kevlar can do that, and they will break.

So the situation is that if your Kevlar bands are set up and driven conservatively (read that correctly) you will be fine with great drums and maybe fine (until you screw up) with not so great drums.

But if you slip your pedals or make your band out of round, wear out a band spring, or do something else wrong then you will make a lot of heat. Great drums will not care, not so great drums will fail.

Where this leaves us is that some folks who have never broken a drum will love their Kevlar linings. Those who have lost a drum will hate them. There is only one way to know if you have a great drum or a not so great drum and that is to run Kevlar linings and screw up a bit... sort of like hitting on the loaded chamber on your roulette game.

After hitting that chamber with four drums I am a lifelong convert to wooden bands. I got good and tired of looking for good replacement drums and rebuilding transmissions.

One of my biggest beefs against Kevlar linings is that they are drying up the supply of not so great drums... which would last a lifetime with wooden or cotton linings. As a direct result of the popularity of Kevlar linings it is getting difficult to locate useable drums, and when you do find them it is getting harder to afford them.

My personal preference is to set my cars up with wooden linings which will wear out eventually needing replacement rather than with super high temp linings which can eventually destroy your drums. I compare the price of Kevlar and a new transmission with the price of a stack of wooden bands and the labor to install them. For me the cost of wood and installation is a better value.

I just present this respectfully for anyone on the fence to consider. I have no financial stake in any lining material... with the exception of when I need to find drums for a new project.

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Borland. Bathurst. NSW. Australia. on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 11:14 pm:

How does heat get applied to the drums? Slipping of the bands, bad driving habits!!! Kevlar will only heat the drum if slipping is allowed by the driver. Moral of the story is don't slip the bands and you will not heat the drums.

Peter


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 11:23 pm:

This tranny was overhauled and set up by a pro here in Socalif, and didn't make the 30 miles home from the shop.



The second repair shop, Loco Larry's, installed wood with the replacement drum.

Drag, for whatever cause, wears out cotton or wood, which are reasonable to replace. Dragging kevlar overheats drums and breaks them. Your choice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 12:04 am:

Peter, I lost a reverse drum on a drive where I never touched the pedal. I can only assume I didn't have the band round enough, or maybe it was adjusted to just slightly rub the drum... I don't know which. If anything goes wrong... ie. a band set too tight so it drags, a band set too loose so it slides when used, band not round enough, spring not strong enough, a pedal rubs on a floorboard slot (that happened to Reid Welch), slipping a band too long to get started on a hill,... almost anything and there goes a drum.

Kevlar is clearly an excellent material for folks who have to characteristics:

  1. people who never make a mistake, this includes poor driving habits, accidents like a pedal rubbing on a floor mat... anything
  2. folks who feel they never want to do the work of changing a band liner again


I had a friend (now deceased) who had a gorgeous 1911 touring. He wore out his cotton linings learning to drive, but had become proficient in driving. He replaced the linings with Kevlar and part way through the next tour he destroyed a drum. It turns out that a bit of the kevlar on the end of the band folded under making about 1/4" where there was double thickness. The result had been predicted by several of us (fellow HCCA members with previous Kevlar experience) in the club. This cost him dearly as he didn't do his own transmission rebuilding.

"Kevlar will only heat the drum if slipping is allowed by the driver." Not only is this wrong, it is a dangerous attitude. Heat is caused by friction. Linings like cotton or wood will wear out or burn out if the heat gets too high. Kevlar will not fail as the heat rises. If there is too much friction from bad driving you can break a drum (I think you will agree, Peter), but other sources of friction can occur... when anything goes wrong... anything, for instance I had a spring get cocked into the band ears so it didn't fully open the band... that was on cotton so the only thing I lost was a bit of cotton... if it was in my Kevlar days I would have lost a drum. My wooden bands don't use springs so that isn't a problem for me anymore.

Peter, you will get heat from friction, it doesn't matter if that friction is due to poor driving or some mechanical glitch, you rub you get heat. If friction continues you get more heat... if it continues to have high friction heat will continue to rise until something fails. Usually the failure comes as a surprise.

I like my surprises to be fitting new wood linings, not new drums.

You pay yer money, you takes yer chances!

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 12:09 am:

How do you anti Kevlar guys account for the 80% of broken drums in original transmissions that have never seen Kevlar. I have taken as many as 10 transmission apart at a time and 80% of them are already cracked by the old cotton bands. The low drum posted above was cracked before Kevlar was ever used, it just was not seen. If you alternate using your reverse drum with the brake drum going down long grades that is another reason for cracked drums, not KEVLAR. Another big reason drums are cracked is people machining rivet marks off the drums, leaving them paper thin.

Again: KEVLAR will not hurt drums ,what hurt drums are:

1. drums already cracked

2. alternating reverse and brakes

3. machining drums to remove rivet marks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warwick Landy on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 02:21 am:

Very intersting discussion! Prior to the advent of Kevlar bands, broken drums in our club had never seemed to have been an issue. Both experienced and inexperienced drivers and maintainers have suffered broken drums since fitting Kevlar bands. I was prepared to dismiss a few broken drums as bad luck or age failure but cars in our club fitted with anything other than Kevlar are not suffering the same fate. Those are just my personal observations so I will not be fitting Kevlar into any of my cars. in the future. As members move away from using Kevlar it will be intersting to see if the rate of broken drums reduces?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Borland. Bathurst. NSW. Australia. on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 02:39 am:

Terry,
Say what you like, I stand by my statement. It is not wrong, or can be considered dangerous. Use whatever you like. Don't assume comments made are not without experience, knowledge and technical ability. The first part of your comment says it all,you had a problem to start with, still have no idea what caused the problem so blamed a product and went to another product that is more easily destroyed to cover for the original fault. To which is probably still there. Fix the result, not the fault and blame the product. I make a good living out of this attitude.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 03:06 am:

I believe that nearly all of major Kevlar band troubles fall into one of three categories.

1.Defective equipment - e.g. pre-cracked drums, pedals bent so that they hit the floorboard prematurely.

2. Improper adjustment - either too tight or too loose, usually too tight to compensate for defective equipment, as listed above.

3. Improper usage - e.g. slipping the low band to climb a hill.

Ralph said:

"I wood buy a set of wood bands, and live worry-free in this regard."

I know two people that have had dangerous catastrophic failure of wood bands on a long steep hill. The wood turns into charcoal, which makes a very good anti-friction material. Kevlar can fail too (in the case of a cracked drum, for instance), but usually gives you a warning, such as the need for frequent adjustments.

That fact that people like me have driven with Kevlar lining for tens of thousands of miles proves that the problem is not the Kevlar. Any body that argues with this is basing their argument on emotion rather than logic and said argument should be discounted accordingly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 05:21 am:

I think Terry has a point in that not all transmission drums were cast without flaws from Ford. That's certainly the case with reverse drums - out of four transmissions I've taken apart I found cracks in the ribs in two of the reverse drums. These drums gave perfect service with cotton bands during their original use back in the 20's and 30's and may or may not eventually crack all the way out to the band surface if used as is. Using kevlar on an unknown reverse drums is taking a risk. Any old Ford drum may develop cracks anytime even after magnafluxing if it's getting heated by something gone wrong..

I still haven't heard about any brake drums getting cracked out to the band surface ever. This may have happened, but I think it's rare & the brake drum may stand for more heat than the others.

There's no rule that says you must use the same band material on all your drums - for me the natural solution for best service and security against breakdowns and brake failure is to use cotton band on the reverse, wood on the low drum and kevlar on the brake drum :-)
Reverse is least used so perhaps the miles until low and reverse bands needs change will be about the same?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 09:54 am:

Roger said: "I think Terry has a point in that not all transmission drums were cast without flaws from Ford."

I agree that this may be true. That is not a reason, however, to install or use a known a flawed drum. Malleable cast replacement drums are available.

Terry also makes the point that since there is a potential for greater damage through improper use of Kevlar, the risk is not worth it.

This is a specious argument. For instance, most folks wouldn't say: "Electricity can kill you if you use it improperly, therefore I will not have it in my home."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 10:14 am:

Does anybody sell kevlar dry clutch discs for other cars?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthonie Boer on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 11:31 am:

Here is how I do it, and had never a problem with Kevlar
# 1 picture ; The shape of the band is NOT good
# 2 picture ; The bands must be TOTALY round
# 3 picture ; As soon as you take off the wire
and open the ears 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch the
Kevlar must be FREE from the drum ALL around
457R
458R
456R
Toon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 04:16 pm:

See my post on the other Kevlar thread.
I have found that a problem exists if your bands are too tight. The only ways you can determine whether they are too tight is by two things. One the car should not creep either forward or backward in neutral (Note it might creep slightly when cold due to thick oil in the clutch disks) The other way to check is to push the car in neutral. The engine should not turn over. If it does, the bands are too tight.

The bands could be too tight when you adjust by the 1 inch above the floorboard method! This is caused by the cams which move the pedals sideways to clamp the bands being worn out or the pedal could be bent forward. When these conditions occur, the best adjustment of the bands will be below the floorboard. If you place the floorboard in the car, you will need to adjust the bands tighter so the pedals will compress the bands, and that is too tight. The bands will drag when the engine is running.
So the fix here is to replace the cams, the shafts, and perhaps even bend the pedals.

Bands can slip from two causes. One is too loose and slips when you push down the pedal hard. The other is too tight causing a constant drag. Either or both of these conditions will occur if the cams are worn out. Both are to be avoided regardless of which bands you use.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 04:21 pm:

A good set of Kevlar bands will outlast several sets of transmission drums unless they tear up the bands when they eventually crack. Then you will have to buy new drums and bands. Kevlar is a very tough material and must be adjusted very carefully. If you don't know what you are doing you will regret them. I use wood because it is very forgiving and less costly than new drums and a transmission rebuild. The modern cotton bands are not as good as the original ones were so I use wood.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 04:22 pm:

"Whether the stone (kevlar) hits the pitcher (drum), or the pitcher (drum) hits the stone (kevlar), it is not good for the pitcher (drum).

Sancho
"Man of La Mancha"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 06:41 pm:

So, no one makes a good set of cotton bands?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 07:08 pm:

Mark Auto used to - maybe they still do but they went strictly wholesale - they were located in New Jersey, I believe. I still have a couple sets somewhere in the shop.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 07:39 pm:

I think this topic has been beat to death,but I do agree with Frank. If you don't know how to properly adjust kevlar,you'd best stay away from them. I think i have adjusted mine two times in the last ten years,with no broken drums. Most of the drums i find with cracks have never seen kevlar.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 08:21 pm:

What wood you people have against wood? Why ask about cotton when wood is available, and better?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 08:40 pm:

I agree with Ricks....I've had wood bands in my '15 for quite a few years and they work flawlessly.I drive my T a LOT. They work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 08:45 pm:

Ralph asked:"What wood you people have against wood? Why ask about cotton when wood is available, and better?"


I explained my main problem with wood above. Secondarily, when I tried wood bands, the chatter was unbearable.

But, as Jack said, we've been over this all before. It is now a matter of emotion bordering on religion. No amount of logic will change any devotee's mind one way or the other, I'd wager.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P. Steele, Montana on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 09:34 pm:

Jacks got it right. That being said I think I'm going to use Kevlar bands to run my water pump.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P. Steele, Montana on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 09:59 pm:

Sorry, I just couldn't resist. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 10:06 pm:

With Kevlar, you will need to adjust them several times initially, then very infrequently. Always just adjust them so they are a few shades off the floor. Round bands are ideal, but I believe that if you install them thru the hogshead door, they are not going to remain perfectly round. You have to do the best you can and not worry about it. I suspect they round out somewhat as they are used. In fifty plus years I have never had a band to wear unevenly to any significance.

If you look at the reverse drum, there isn't much metal there. Using it for a brake will get it hot. The reverse drum is the one most often cracked. Model T lore says you can use reverse as a brake. It works, but its a bad idea. To slow down I use low and the engine as a brake but I don't slip the band.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 08:36 am:

I have wood in my 27 and they are smooth. I made about 5 or 6 sets of wood bands and gave them away for people to try as I was once going to start making them. Wood is not always smooth. We put one set in that chatters like a dog crapping peach pits. They were all made of Cotton Wood and all treated with ATF and mineral oil.

The claims that wood is always smooth isn't accurate. It depends on the car.

I have wood in one, Kevlar in one and Kevlar in the TT I just sold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 09:24 am:

I've got kevlar in one car and cotton in the other. When the cotton broke down in the one it plugged up every thing. When I took the transmission apart it had 2 cracked drums. I figure if the bands are adjusted right regardless of the material you won't have a problem. Make sure you've got the oil level where it belongs and drive the vehicle correctly and you're probably not going to have a problem. And make sure you're running the right kind of oil. I run Non-detergent 30 weight in one car with the kevlar and 10W30 detergent in the car with cotton. I always make sure I put a quart of Marvel Mystery oil in both cars when I change oil. I don't run a water pump because there's not a model t made that needs one. I run motorcraft plugs although the adapters and 14 mm plugs would probably work alright. I'd run a distributor if I had one although I don't care if it would make a difference.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 12:38 pm:

Mike,

I don't run Marvel Mystery oil because there's not a model t made that needs it.

(But, that's me.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 12:59 pm:

My theory on Kevlar is that if your driving habits are such that you are constantly having to replace cotton or wooden bands and you feel Kevlar is going to keep you from having to replace bands so often, then you are probably going to break something real soon. On the other hand, If your driving habits are such that you seldom ever have to adjust, much less replace, your cotton or wooden bands, then why do you need Kevlar? I'm in the second category. I'll go a little further and say that if you are burning up a brake band going down hills, then you are in too high of a gear. NO vehicle should EVER go down a hill in a gear that is higher than you would use to go up it. That is true for Model T's, as well as brand new Lincolns. When I drive in the mountains, I downshift going down hills, even with an automatic transmission. I don't ride the brake down a hill in ANY vehicle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 01:06 pm:

Tom Carnegie: On the first Model T I used wood bands on it had a 26-27 transmission on a 1914 Speedster. The cotton lined low band went bad when the rivets pulled through and the cotton folded over.

Mary and I have known Jim and Bea Guinn as personal friends since 1958. I contacted Jim and purchased an exchange low band already riveted from Jim and slipped it in position without removing the hogs head. Jim said to loosen the reverse band and move it forward over the reverse drum lip. Then start it on the left side and slide it around. He said to drill the hole in the end of the metal band all the way through the wood so it can be hooked with a wire and pulled through.

When I began to drive the car it chattered as you said yours did. I contacted Jim and he told me to add a quart of automatic transmission fluid to the crankcase by pouring it directly on the bands. He also stated that one must not use too much throttle on start up and should also stab it rather firmly to eliminate the slip and the chatter. After getting going with a good hard step on the pedal you can then throttle it up and get going.

So careful foot pressure application and the addition of automatic transmission fluid solved the chatter. That was in 1999 and that band is still in the car today.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 03:47 pm:

Hal said:" I don't ride the brake down a hill in ANY vehicle."

Good plan, but it would be nice to be able to if you needed to.

Frank said:"So careful foot pressure application and the addition of automatic transmission fluid solved the chatter."

I've tried every stabbing, jabbing, non-jabbing, slipping, feathering, whatever way I could think of and the thing still chatters ferociously. I've heard about the ATF trick, but can't bring myself to do it. I feel that when you are driving 50+ MPH all day long, you need the best lubrication that you can get. I don't think ATF is the best crankcase lubricant.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By scott thayer-Ohio on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 05:09 pm:

i am new here,wow band material topic is a slugfest,it seems more confusing after reading it.:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 07:13 pm:

Did I say I run Marvel Mystery Oil? No I didn't mean to say that. I only run oil but always put some 3 in 1 sewing machine oil with a mix of kerosene and a little white lightning. I've learned with this mix if I don't run the engine it lasts for year and years. Of course you have to understand the 3 in 1 oil has to be non-detergent. I've also found a new band material I've had a lot of success with. I've been weaving my own bands out of steel wool. After I get the bands weaved I coat them with lithium grease and as long as I keep using my special oil mix and don't run the engine my bands really last great too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 07:25 pm:

I use wood, no issues to report, happy so far.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 08:01 pm:

How do all you "If it ain't how Henry built it, it ain't going in my car" justify a modern composite band material? Wood is the original composite material, and still growing..

Some of the Original Righteous are strangely silent in this thread.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 08:16 pm:

That's a good question Ralph. I'm one of those guys but I'm running Kevlar bands. But then I run the new style outer rear axle seals and a new style split crankshaft pulley and a new style fan hub pulley too. I am so ashamed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 11:14 pm:

Where does anyone get the idea that if someone can't properly adjust kevlar bands they'll be able to adjust anything else?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 11:22 pm:

The penalty for a misadjusted wood band is a worn band.

The penalty for a maladjusted kevlar band is a broken drum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 11:37 pm:

Ah......so it's equivalent to the water pump and E-Timer argument controversies.......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 12:32 am:

The reward for properly adjusted Kevlar brakes:

Seldom needs adjusting
Doesn't turn to carbon when you need it most

I would risk a broken drum if needed, but it isn't, because I've adjusted my bands properly and use them properly.

Craig said:"Ah......so it's equivalent to the water pump and E-Timer argument controversies......."

To a degree, but not totally - water pumps and E-timers fundamentally change the engineering of the Ford motor. Kevlar and wooden bands (along with fuel, oil, spark plugs etc.) are consumables that more or less function in the same manner as the original equipment.

Disclaimer: I am not necessarily against water pumps or E-timers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 01:01 am:

Tom, were the bands you burned up made by Jim Guinn?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 01:02 am:

LOL Tom.......some things are just too hard to pass up....... <snicker>
I put kevlar linings in my Tudor and will in the coupe more likely sooner than later......have water pumps on all four of my T's and have 2 sets of plastics coils (soon to be 3) so I don't particularly care what "everyone else" is doing anyway....... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 01:56 am:

Ralph, I have never burned up a wooden band. Two of my friends have. I don't know who made the bands. Does Jim Guinn make his from some kind of wood that doesn't burn?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 07:18 am:

I asked the source of the burning wood bands, Tom, as Guinn bands are made from Cotton Wood, so, yes, they can burn. However, other people have made wood bands, and maybe didn't cure and treat them correctly. That may be irrelevant, however.

"I know two people that have had dangerous catastrophic failure of wood bands on a long steep hill. The wood turns into charcoal..."

from wiki on Charcoal:

The question of the temperature of the carbonization is important; according to J. Percy, wood becomes brown at 220 C (428 F), a deep brown-black after some time at 280 C (536 F), and an easily powdered mass at 310 C (590 F).

That says a burning band has to be dry of oil. Oil evaporates quickly above 300F. To me, burning wood bands on a long, steep hill means poor technique: not going down the hill in the same gear as climbing it, and/or running low on oil to the brake band due to low oil level or poor splash. Another poor technique is not letting up on the brake often and long enough for the oil to get to the band surface for cooling. Poor conditions for wood is also poor conditions for a drum being rubbed by kevlar.

Regardless, two secondhand cases with unkown oil splash in 20 years is not a compelling argument against wood. Like Roger says, if you're worried about wood on the brake drum, you can use kevlar there. The brake drums don't have a history of breaking like the low and reverse.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 07:33 am:

"Where does anyone get the idea that if someone can't properly adjust kevlar bands they'll be able to adjust anything else?"

Craig, there are thousands of airliners in the air right now, and every one of them will land safely. It's not that nothing on them ever fails; it's that fault tolerance is built into their design so that failures have the least possible consequences. Fault tolerance has to take into account improper operation and maintenance.

There are no fault tolerances with kevlar bands. The result is a complete teardown. Some impending failures are signaled to the driver; others are not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 07:45 am:

My issue with wood (and I'm running them) is not all cars will be smooth with wood no matter what you say. My car is smooth as are about 5 others I made bands for. One car is as Tom describes (chatters terribly on all three).

I appreciate your discounting the "two secondhand cases with unknown oil splash in 20 years" just like you have discounted the thousands of Kevlar installations that were apparently done correctly and are still providing good service.

I look at a improperly adjusted set of Kevlar or poor job of installation just like my dad used to tell me when I was a kid making an excuse for something, "tis a poor craftsman that blames his tools".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nathan Bright on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 09:51 am:

While i have no experience firsthand with kevlar, i have a very good buddy whom runs kevlar on her brake and cotton on the other two. She has a very nice speedster and her thought mentality is if she needs the brakes in an emergency situation then she doesnt care if she brakes a drum. however she does rarely use the brake as she is a very cautious driver. my 1.5 cents (i dont have enough experience firsthand to have 2 cents) is just to run cotton and use one of those mesh screens in the inspection door :-) cheers!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 10:12 am:

Gary: Add a quart of automatic transmission fluid to that car that chatters on all three.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 10:55 am:

Ralph said:"two secondhand cases with unkown oil splash in 20 years is not a compelling argument against wood."

It ain't? This is not a court of law. Also, to me the reports are not hearsay, they were told directly to me. It is also not to say that there aren't more cases that I haven't heard of, which surely there are. In fact, I got a PM just yesterday from a forum poster who had a burnt band issue with wood bands.

Nathan said:"i have a very good buddy whom runs kevlar on her brake"

I've done (am doing) the same thing in one of my T's. I have Kevlar on the brake and wood on the low and reverse.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 11:00 am:

Frank, tried that. The fix for that car is probably more than bands. I suspect the transmission needs rebushed.

When I make bands, after I steam shape them I soak them in ATF and mineral spirits (about 50-50) for a couple of weeks. As I said, 5 were smooth and one not so much. The car that chattered was so bad I was afraid something may break.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul O'Neil on Monday, December 03, 2012 - 06:19 pm:

I know some of you are tired of this subject but it has a lot of value for some of us. While I have been in the local T club for something like 20 years, it is only recently that I bought a T and found it to be in need of major work. Among many other things, it needs bands and I read every word I can find on the subject as there is a lot of wisdom to take in. Thanks to all of you for your posts.

Vintage Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, December 03, 2012 - 07:34 pm:

Paul, "Go see Jim,,,Guinn." to the tune of "Go See Cal," at Worthington Ford...

Take good care of that '23 Roadster. My Dad bought one like it, new. Sure would like to find it...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony Bennett on Monday, December 03, 2012 - 07:59 pm:

Kevlar works brilliantly, and the few times I have had to adjust them, a tight band is soon given away by the smell of hot oil. Ignore that smell at your peril;)

just my 5c

cheers

Anthony


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul O'Neil on Monday, December 03, 2012 - 09:17 pm:

Thanks Ralph, I guess on this matter I have been a real fence sitter which is normally not my style at all. I have switched back and forth on this more times than I can count. About six months ago I had Dave at Chaffin send me a set of the Kevlar linings. Today I switched back again and ordered a set of the wood bands from Jim.

While I have owned this car for years (mostly working on it) and spent many years riding as a guest in other Ts, my total T driving time is probably only a hundred miles or so. It just seemed best to go with the wood in my case until I get a better feel for the pedals. If the wood give trouble I can always install the Kevlar linings if needed.

Vintage Paul, hopefully soon to have a drivable T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Monday, December 03, 2012 - 11:26 pm:

There should be a warning label supplied with each set of Kevlar bands warning the buyer that his wife will run away (or return,which ever is worse) his roof will fall in, teeth will fall out, dog will run away, tires will go flat and the IRS will come to the door. I run Kevlar in all my T's so i should just shoot myself and get it over with!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, December 03, 2012 - 11:46 pm:

Isn't that about the only thing not original on your cars, Kim?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nevin Gough on Monday, December 03, 2012 - 11:49 pm:

I've been running Kevlar for years now. Never had an issue, never adjust them, didn't know I should be worrying about them!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 09:46 pm:

Well my wife is already gone and will not be coming back. The roof on my sedan is so bad it would be good to have it fall in. I've already got dentures. I guess I'm gonna miss that dog. When the IRS showed up I flattened his tires. I'm still running kevlar.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 11:22 pm:

Kim, your warning should be extended! I just pulled down two T trans and they were shot. I have a set of new kevlar bands still in the box, in the shelves in my adjoining store room. Through a 14" thick stone wall they managed to put cracks in 3 of the webs in one of the reverse drums. Perhaps they are radio active or something?

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 12:54 pm:

Tom,

" I've heard about the ATF trick, but can't bring myself to do it. I feel that when you are driving 50+ MPH all day long, you need the best lubrication that you can get."

What do you think lubricates an automatic transmission? Pretty harsh environment in there. I use about a 1/2 quart of ATF. I have some mix of old Scandinavia bands & kevlar bands. Can't remember now which car has what.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 01:56 pm:

Asbestos is real good too for holding heat. Asbestos in lots of muffler, exhaust, insulating and heat shields back in the day and still is in use.

There were makes of asbestos linings for Fords, so you would think drums got busted by asbestos too. But never heard of that claim, only the lung problems with airborne tiny particles of asbestos.


Woven asbestos linings for Fords

Asbestos isn't banned in the USA, but a couple of sessions of congress tried to do so.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/110/s742


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 01:59 pm:

Jerry asked:"What do you think lubricates an automatic transmission?"

Typically ATF.

Jerry said:"Pretty harsh environment in there."

Perhaps, but a transmission isn't a motor. I know of no ATF brand that recommends putting it into a crankcase, nor any car company that recommends ATF in their motor.

Jerry said:"I use about a 1/2 quart of ATF. "

Do you ever drive your T 50+ mph for hours at a time? I don't feel comfortable with anything less than the best motor oil I can buy. As they say, your mileage may vary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 03:12 pm:

ATF is a very high detergent lubricating and hydraulic oil. I use it if bands chatter.

How many times do you use the clutch in the MT500? Certainly not enough to be concerned with band chatter?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 03:17 pm:

ATF is more of a fluid, then an oil. It feels dry to the touch between the fingers. It might be Ok for what it was designed for, such as Tranny valves and slight movement clutch plates, and I have also heard of it put in Semi's to seat rings in a new motor. So if it would help seat rings, it has to be lacking in moving parts wear protection.

If you have chatter, fix what is wrong, don't add another, and worst problem!

A chatter is always, a grab, and slip effect!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 03:27 pm:

There are bearings in automatic transmissions that last for a long, long,.....long time! Can't think of anything else but ATF that lubricates them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 03:44 pm:

If ATF cures the grab and slip, it must be lubricating. The next time your hands get greasy and grimy, wash them in ATF. You will be impressed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 10:03 pm:

There are bearings in automatic transmissions that last for a long, long,.....long time! Can't think of anything else but ATF that lubricates them."END QUOTE"

Harold, Are you talking about the Ball bearings in a Automatic Transmission, that are made out of babbitt! My Model T's don't have any, except the ball cap, and it has dust shields!

If ATF cures the grab and slip, it must be lubricating. The next time your hands get greasy and grimy, wash them in ATF. You will be impressed. "END QUOTE"

Rick, The grab, and slip "CHATTER" comes from worn, or Faulty rebuilt drums!

If you use up all the ATF for your hands, what would you use in your Automatic Transmission, Hand Cleaner!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 10:10 pm:

I save the old ATF after a flush. Takes 15 qt to do it right. Works good in the T, too. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Thursday, December 06, 2012 - 11:41 am:

So the ATF is too old and used up that you don't want it in your modern car anymore, so you remove it and put it in your Model T? I don't know what to say... I guess I'm glad that's working out for you...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Thursday, December 06, 2012 - 12:18 pm:

i think he means the atf he used to flush the transmission.

im not one to run atf in my engine for long periods but i know it can really clean one out!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, December 06, 2012 - 01:25 pm:

Tom,

No, not 50+, but 40+ for hours at a time.

Harold,

"There are bearings in automatic transmissions that last for a long, long,.....long time!"

Yes, and the ATF doesn't get changed every 1000 miles either, (more like 100,000).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Thursday, December 06, 2012 - 01:45 pm:

"There are bearings in automatic transmissions that last for a long, long,.....long time!"

Yes, and the ATF doesn't get changed every 1000 miles either, (more like 100,000)."END QUOTE"

And how many Babbitt bearings are in a automatic transmission, did you say?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, December 06, 2012 - 05:19 pm:

Herm,

If you'll read my post again, you'll notice that I didn't say. I suspect there are zero but that's not the point I was trying to make.

I wouldn't run my T on 100% ATF, as an automatic transmission does. (I would run yours on it though!) I'm just saying it must have some darn good lubrication properties, regardless of bearing material.

But none of that matters when you just want to stir the pot and be cantankerous. That's fine, have a good day Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Thursday, December 06, 2012 - 06:26 pm:

I'm just saying it must have some darn good lubrication properties, regardless of bearing material. "END QUOTE"

--------Common sense would tell every one, if it was that good, we wouldn't have motor oil!

But none of that matters when you just want to stir the pot and be cantankerous. That's fine, have a good day Herm."END QUOTE"

------OOP's, trying to draw attention away from your lack of pro points for debate!!

A ball bearing will run in most any thing, as long as it stays reasonable cool, like water soluble oil, and water, but a babbitt bearing does not like that.

So, if you think fixing a chattering band by Diluting motor oil, instead of fixing the cause, as it won't fix it's self, well, Jerry, you just keep right on cobbling your T stuff together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, December 06, 2012 - 07:45 pm:

Kohnke - ......guess you'd know about cantankerous, and you ARE consistant!

I was taught,...."if you can't say anything nice, say nothing at all" "END QUOTE"

(....nothing at all, nothing at all, nothing at all, nothing at all...." " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " ")


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Thursday, December 06, 2012 - 07:53 pm:

Why thanks Harold, for showing me what you say, when you don't say any thing at all!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, December 06, 2012 - 08:04 pm:

Herm,

"OOP's, trying to draw attention away from your lack of pro points for debate!! "

That's your trick. You insult when you have nothing else to offer. I'm done with you Herm, you've alienated yet another person for good. Must be fun for you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Thursday, December 06, 2012 - 08:58 pm:

I will put a pin on the map in your Honor!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 03:58 am:

I'll never understand why some people feel they must be so rude and condescending. Thankfully, the grammar, spelling and punctuation are usually so bad, the message isn't communicated clearly, or else the problem would be worse than it is.


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