ok i put the kevlar bands in the car cause it came with them and at the time"and still am"very green to the T operation, anyway how bout a question? how is the best way to drive a T around here it is pretty flat some small 1/2 block long hills i try to avoid
I'll share how I do them and even only on one of the cars, have not had issue.
1- I deliberately make sure the hoops are round and go out of my way to not spring them on a 'through the tranny door' install. I do that whether Scandia, Wood, or Kevlar. Others say 'bah-humbug' but round is round in my view/ egg is egg.
2- I set them almost loose initially, and then only pull them in 1/2 turn at the time after a trial ride until I get the Goldilocks warm and fuzzies. Go for a ride, feel for a slip, pedal feedback, go back in for a 1/2 turn if necessary on the 'R' and 'B', outside screw on 'L'.
3- From there it IS driving habits! I am firmly convinced of that. 5 cars set the same way, 5 cars may not run the same way or experience due to 'driver interference'. For best band life no matter what the material, don't drag low,learn to ease it but firm and quick and do the sticks trick to get going...'R' is really a throttle/spark thing too. then think binary with the pedal. You don't want to try anything too fast in 'R' anyway, T's lose castor/camber in reverse anyway. Try reverse at 10 MPH and on most cars you'll wish you never tried. So that leaves us the Brake.
Slow the car with a sticks up gesture helps alot, and then actually pulse the brake for normal stopping. Not variable slip, pulse. Pulsing lets a quick 'open' for a gulp of oil. Figure backwards your stopping distances from there.
The coefficient of friction for the kevlar is only about 8% more so it then can only generate 8% more energy (heat)...but the kevlar can't wick away heat so it also has no where to go, when woven it becomes about as dense as a brick. So a pulse makes that variable go away as the oil 'exchanges'.
The vast majority of drums are either already microcracked, or they will in time just waiting for the chance to do so. Ford molding and casting methods left a bunch to be desired when it came to porosity, micro-porosity, and 'hot spots' on cooling. But, they made about 100 million that way counting what was probably spares build. It was just accepted in the era...if you didn't see it before or after machining, it didn't exist and if hot spot shrinkage stress decided to let go later there was nothing they could do about it anyway. They 'might' have diced and sliced one or two a day at a meager effort at QC and visual interpretation to see if they were getting a colder pour, or maybe were a little too long from crucible to ladel to mold. This WAS state of the art at the time.
Today we hold the crucible to within about a 20 degree deadband at all times, the ladel is timed to get from the crucible to the pour headbox, and we are fiddling with 'dope' metals almost to the gram added by the clock to get the process control we want, the sprues and trees are CAE designed to actually do a virtual pour showing flow/fill and for hot-spots on cooling and the design adjusted from there to minimize any of the chances. We even NC control the spigot on the headbox to always be true dead center on the waiting mold hole...and we still will find a slug of small porosity from time to time, so we RF ring test each piece to get most of them out of the population, we sonic test way too many times as it passes through deburr operations, run X-ray on a pieces/ 'x' quantity based on customer confidence level. This is a foundry operation of today and Ford had NONE of this available in the era.
If you do milk (pulse) the brakes, do not let up enough to allow the drum to pick up speed as that will just increase your amount of stopping distance. I myself, was taught by an old timer who did not believe in milking the brakes. He believed, as I, that the best way is to stop the car as fast as possible is to not milk the brakes but press hard on the brake pedal to bring the revolving drum to a quick stop. I had the same Scandanavian bands on my car from 1972 until 2010 when I replaced them with Guinn's wood bands, which I like even better than the Scandanavian bands that I had. While some people swear by the Kevlar bands, I would not use them since they are very durable. Possibly too durable and too hard and non-absorbent for the Model T drums and the oil needed to lubricate them. While I cannot substantiate this, many reports have come in indicating that Kevlar linings could cause overheating of the drums possibly causing them to crack. Again, this could be totally wrong, but as there are other more suitable lining products for us to use (wood, cotton), it is not a chance I want to take. Jim Patrick
PS. I have heard that the new Scandanavian linings are not as good as the originals. They get sticky and leave a tar like residue, from what I have read here, which leaves the only option for me. Wood.
George
1. What is the "sticks trick" ?
2. Do you have to remove your firewall to get the hogshead off? Any tricks to it?
Thanks
schuh
George, when you are answering Bud could you also explain " a trial ride until I get the Goldilocks warm and fuzzies"?
George
Agree with you methods of T driving, and the importance of 'round' bands and linings riveted correctly to follow the circle, without humps or ends of linings overhanging excessively.
And drums have to be in good shape, not worn down, with razor sharp edges, or lathe turned or nicked or cracks showing....these are drums that must be replaced. No tolerance for cracked or worn drums. Same with out-of-round bands. Period.
Regardless of the lining type, cotton, Kevlar, or wood, the bands must be round. The drums must be perfect/good to use, the pedal cams, pedal shafts, band springs...ie all the mechanical parts of operation for the planetary trans have to be in fine working order.
From then on it's driver's operation methods. Drive the T as the antique it is.
1. Slow, initial firm press on the low pedal, as you speed up, with full pressure until you hit 8mph or so, depending on how fast you need to start, or if on a hill and you need lots of low pedal to get momentum.
2. The retard throttle, and lift the foot off low pedal with fluid movement, as you in turn increase throttle for more road speed, adjusting spark as the engine rpms move up.
Never jam on low pedal to start, too much strain on the drive line. Never pop low pedal out, too much shock when the trans goes into high.
3. Stopping...close throttle...slow with engine braking as you realize your distance. Then press on brake pedal to bring you to the stop. Long downgrades are hard on the brake lining, so press and release to oil the lining, but try to use engine brake to slow you, ie, no throttle.
Never use reverse to slow or stop the T.
If you think first of the mechanics/engineering/operations of the systems of the planetary transmission in the T, you will respect the nature of operating the Ford correctly and will become instinctive as you practice good T driving skills
Been doing this 49 years now, using all the different band linings too, haven't busted a drum or broken a crank either, lucky? Maybe, but believe that practice of having your T in good condition, and operating correctly is the main reason.
The wood liners are stiffer than the metal bands, so the bands conform to them. I don't use springs.
Ricks is right. I never use springs on the wooden lined bands. Also I sometimes put them in through the access door.
Ronnie, you said you put the Kevlar bands in the car. If you put them through the access door instead of taking the hogs head off do not drive the car... in fact DO NOT START THE ENGINE111 Your bands may have been round when you lined them but if they went through the door in the transmission cover they are no longer round and you will break a drum with them.
What you need to do is:
I destroyed 2 low drums with Kevlar linings until I found the cause. It was not the Kevlar, but the adjustment of the low pedal! Both cases it happened after going quite fast downhill in high. Then the next stop sign The pedal went to the floor and I adjusted it and it ran a mile or so to the next stop sign and the pedal went to the floor. I found that the best place for the adjustment was below the floorboard! When I placed the floorboard, I had to tighten the adjustment and even though I had 1 inch above the floorboard, the band was dragging all the time. It would even creep forward in neutral and when I pushed the car in neutral the engine would turn over. The fix was to replace the cams, shaft, and bend the pedal. So far it has not happened again. I still use Kevlar. I am not sure this would have happened with other types of lining, but am sure the lining would not have lasted very long. One of my other cars has had Kevlar for over 10 years with no problems so far.
Norm
Here's my advise. It's free so take it for what it's worth.
Kevlar works just fine if they are installed correctly and adjusted correctly. The important thing is to make sure the band is round before installing the lining, and is still round after installation. The lining can not rub against the drum when the band is relaxed or it will generate too much heat. If you want to just change the bands and stuff them in through the inspection cover, don't use Kevlar. Use wood, cotton, chewing gum, whatever - just don't use Kevlar. If you want to use Kevlar, then you MUST remove the hogs head to install them.
Here is the procedure I always recommend for installing Kevlar.
1. Remove the hogs head and the bands.
2. Inspect the drums for any damage.
3. Find something round the diameter of the drum and make sure the band is round.
4. Install the Kevlar lining.
5. Make sure the band is still round.
6. Carefully slide the bands around the drums being careful not to stretch them out.
7. Rebuild the hogs head.
--- Check the pedal cams and make sure there is no wear. Replace or repair as needed.
--- Check the pedal shafts for wear and replace and re-bush as needed.
8. Install the hogs head.
9. Install new springs.
10. Check that the pedal is not bent forward. If so, bend it back into alignment.
11. Adjust the bands so that when you are pressing hard with your foot the pedal stops about 1" - 1-1/2" above the floor board.
12. Make sure that the cam on the pedals do not go beyond the ramp of the cam on the hogs head. If it does the pedal will not come back up.
13. Go for a short ride - like a couple of blocks. Stop when you feel the band is just starting to slip - don't let it slip.
14. Readjust the pedal - bring up 1/2 turn - just enough to return it to the original setting.
15. Go for a longer ride.
16. Repeat 13 - 15. Each time you will be able to go further before having to re-adjust. After 3 - 4 adjustments I find it only takes 1/2 turn once a year.
If you feel the pedal starting to slip - stop - adjust 1/2 turn and try that - go another 1/2 turn if necessary. Resist the urge to adjust the pedal higher to save an adjustment later. You are just increasing the chance the band will drag and cause problems.
Also - driving habits are important. DON'T use the reverse pedal as a brake. The reverse drum is very week and not designed to handle the heat generated during braking. I highly recommend external brakes of some sort. They provide better stopping, reduce the chance of any single point failure between the transmission and wheels resulting in no brakes, and they take the heat and wear out of the transmission during braking. For the slow speed and reverse pedals, press the pedal firmly to lock the drum. Don't let the band slip on the drum any more than necessary.
And that is my advise on Kevlar.
Dave S.
Bud,
I'm sorry, I tend to kill the English language in the way I talk.
I set bands to almost just kiss on first setting to the point of going only 50 feet sometimes on a test ride and then opening up the tranny door to take another half turn and do it again. I'll do this as many times as necessary until all three bands feel 'just right' to me (hence Goldilocks feeling warm and fuzzy).
Many T drivers think the left 'stick' (spark advance)is up for start, down for run and leave it that way. Ditto in the throttle 'stick' where there are way too many revs and folks think they can feather the pedals like in a more modern clutch to get by. NOPE! We each have a style of driving...mine is the 4 fingered on the wheel with my pinky fingers doing the 'sticks' and as pointed out elsewhere, it does become second nature after a while. What I tried to say was there is a certain 'spark' and 'throttle' position that works easiest on the bands and how YOU set them, actually any band material, more important with Kevlar I think so learn to use 'the sticks' and not your foot as much as you can. Example is reverse...typically many just go to say 900RPM or so on the throttle and then feather with only their foot to make the car move. Sure, gets you from point A to point B but not the way to do it!
Bud, you have a '15 and while many say you can do it through the tranny door, I must belong to the life skills impaired class because I always need to take off the hogshead on the '15. You don't have to pull the firewall, but you do need to look at exhaust manifold as sometimes you have but 1/32" to spare for clearance to get the hogshead off and sometimes it hits.
Inetersting comment on the 'through the tranny door' band change on the later cars. In order to not spring band/hoop (and I don't) there is a lot of cussing, a lot of jiggle by feel, and a bunch of walking away for 10 minutes and coming back. On a timeline, it IS sometimes quicker to pull the hogshead on anything year wise!
I'll share a story on a recent. Was up doing Tom Edison's NJ T last spring changing out bands with another T member here along to do ignition stuff and a few other things. With a smile he called me a bit of a fuddy-duddy because I played QC inspector on hoop roundness before he set the rivets and he was somewhat bored waiting and then I refused to 'spring' the hoops to get them in. It's a 22 so went 'through the tranny cover door' and there was a boss inside just a tad oversized or something. I'm embarrassed to say how long it took and still don't know what the final contortion was but success was finally at hand and yes...on a timeline it would have been easier to just pull the hogshead and put it back! We went for a test ride, and only had to tweak 2 of the bands after the trial run. Best of my knowledge been fine since and the National Park Service drivers are real newbies all the time at driving.
I also believe too many decide 'close enough' on first setting and figure they will tweak at 200 miles if necessary and probably only have to do the low speed band at that. To me wrong approach. Going for a quick test ride, opening it up and taking 1/2 turn and then another ride, even 2-3 times is what? Another half hour or so? My way I doubt I even have to go back in at that 200 miles on other band materials. Kevlar I go through the test one more time just to make sure a while later and to look for fuzz.
All I can say is that when I'm done with Kevlar, if you are a feather the left pedal type of guy, it WON'T pull a set of high angle trailer ramps. Yet let me get in back it up 3 feet before starting and I can march it right up without needing to launch it at the top of the ramps. My style works for me, my boys drive the same way, and for what it is worth all three of us are pretty immune to any band material so far.
Not to jump on a 'side', but did the '15 with Jim Guinn bands here recently, had to pull the hogshead of course, boy are they smooth in even first use with no chatter and as luck would have it I had a leaker when done... So it sits for now, ran out of time, but next time I get to it, it WILL seal
George
Thanks for the good explanations.
Removing the manifold to get the hogshead off seems like a small price to pay for ease of installation and a lesser chance of bending the band out of round. Good to hear you don't need to remove the firewall though!
As far as belonging to the "life skills impaired" class, I must be in it too because I recently had someone tell me that pulling and replaceing #4 conrod cap with the engine in the car (3 dip pan) was "easy". My sore neck and bruised fingers say it isn't so!
Cheers
schuh
Schuh,
Kudos on your life skills impairment class
The cap jokingly has to be almost within minute seconds of placement and then moved for the second one to stand half a chance to save scraped knuckles and the 'what the heck did I get into' syndrome. There is a special wrench that snakes about and helps, but it still isn't fun.
I have a spare 3 dipper engine in the old pig-sty shed that has been waiting for a bitsey project car for near 20 years Somehow, I always manage to come across a usable 4-dipper somewhere when I get into a project car. I think it is a mental block. even though I know the 3 dippers are 'stiffer' and can be more friendly to cranks in use.