Drive shaft with pinion bearing replaced with 3 ball bearings

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Drive shaft with pinion bearing replaced with 3 ball bearings
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 11:54 am:

I tore a drive shaft assembly apart last night that I forgot I had. It has the pinion roller bearing replaced with 3 ball bearings. The front one is sealed on the out side. Looks to be a good job done on it. The pinion bearing drive shaft sleeve has been replaced with a turned piece with built in spacer and the housing has been modified for the outer diameter of the bearings. The rear most bearings are paired. Everything is a tight fit. Using the front bushing for thrust will this be a good setup? Or with I be better off with a pair of tapered bearings at the back? With a yearly mileage of less then 1000 miles and top speed of 40, I am thinking the ball bearings should be fine. What say you?
Thanks
I get some photos tonight of the unit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 12:17 pm:

"Using the front bushing for thrust will this be a good setup?"

No.

If the all the bearings are truly ball bearings, and not tapered roller bearings, you have no ability to support the thrust load of the pinion. If by the "front bushing" you mean the bushing just behind the u-joint then, no, it will do nothing to bear the thrust of the pinion as it pushes forward, towards the engine. That bushing only handles the rearward thrust of the driveshaft/pinion assembly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 12:37 pm:

Jerry
My line of thinking also. I was just checking so I would have my thoughts going in the right direction. The two rear bearings do not appear to be the thrust type ball bearings, using the big bearing in the Ruckstell as an example. It's off to the bearing supper store on the internet to find a pair of tapered bearings to replace the ball bearings.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 12:44 pm:

Or replace the two rear bearings with a thrust type ball bearing. Measure the bearing in millimeters and you will be able to find one easily. The Ruckstell bearing, for example, is a 110 x 60 x 22 mm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John W. Oder - Houston, Texas on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 01:00 pm:

7XXX series are angular contact and made for one direction thrust


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 01:22 pm:

Deep grove ball bearings can take more thrust than your thinking. The modern Jet engine does not use tapered rollers and relies on ball bearings to absorb thrust loads (which are probably better than 10,000 times the thrust a T pinion will ever see).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 01:46 pm:

The housing was modified so I suspect the there is a shoulder to take the thrust from the bearings, and thus the pinion. Listen to what you said:"a good job was done on it". It was working when you took it apart and is in good condition. The thrust from the pinion is always outward, the standard front bushing should be fine. It looks like it was well engineered and made and proven in service. Use it as is and don't look back.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 05:03 pm:

Ted,

Just because it was made nice does not mean it will work.

MAYBE if Mark looks up the numbers on the bearings that were used, he may find that they are angular contact bearings or deep groove ball bearings. Either might be o.k. but, regular ball bearings will not be.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 05:10 pm:

I would throw that set up in the trash. The rear axle is not a place where you want to using questionable parts. Remember that if that bearing fails your transmison brake will not work and the ring and pinion will be ruined. I would install a fun projects bearing and not have to worry about it coming apart.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 07:09 pm:

Texas T's pinion brg. set up is simular to yours it sounds. It is a cartridge that is self contained using locktite 660 to hold it in place with out modification to the spool. I think there are others made something like it. I wouldn't trash it till I had more info. Lots of people come up with good ideas to solve the same problem, it does'nt make it a wrong idea because it's different. KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 07:32 pm:

The bearings in question are 206 which is as I have found so far are the same as 6206 which are 62od, 30id 16 wide in mm. No I am not going to trash it, I have some ideas. I don't know the history on this setup, it's just one of those things that got added to my collection.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 07:58 pm:

Mark:

Before you get too far along, put it together and see where the pinion gear sits in reference to the ring gear. If the setup is adjustable then make sure you have enough adjustment. If the pinion gear is too far forward or too far rearward and there is no adjustment, your rear end will likely be noisy at best and dangerous at worst. So long as the pinion tear teeth sit square and align with the ring gear teeth then you can shim the ring gear or possibly modify the thrust washers to get a good ring/pinion fit. Deep groove ball bearings that can handle a lot of sideways thrust are known in the trade as CONRAD bearings. Look for that term when you select bearings for your project. Then solve the formula for thrust and axial load on the bearing that is taking the pinion thrust and double check that the designer of the setup knew what he was doing and you should then be OK if the answer is yes he did know what he was doing. If you don't know how to do the math, most bearing manufacturers have application engineers that will help you figure it out. They also usually have software that does it all quickly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 08:07 pm:

Mark,

Has it been used at all? If so, then look at the wear pattern on the pinion gear. Perhaps you can learn something there.

From the way you describe it, it would probably work OK, but pictures would help. The stock roller bearing and ball thrust bearing is a strong setup and hard to beat.

Do you have Rocky Mountain brakes or other after market brakes on the rear?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 08:48 pm:

This was just the drive shaft and housing when I got it. Yes I have outside brakes. I took more photos but the battery was weak so only three made it to the card. Need a bit of shimming with it as it is! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 10:07 pm:

John, by the way, I am running one of the fun projects pinion set ups in the old 24 sedan. It is a hand me down from Ken Swan with 40k when he got done and since another 31k with me. Excellant product. KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 10:52 pm:

The "doubled" bearing next to the pinion offers no advantage over a single bearing. So the side load rating is only that of one bearing. It is all to do with the tolerances of manufacture. Potentially it could have less load rating but that is remote. As always the rotating race (the one on the drive shaft) needs to be fixed to the driveshaft using a "loktite" or similar material (or it would be preferred to have a light press fit which is not a option now it would appear). Personally I would probably NOT use these bearings for this application. A true double row ball bearing can likely be bought for by the pinion and a angular contact ball bearing can likely be bought for the thrust. Likely they will have the same inside and outside diameters. Yes they will cost substantially more than the ones presented here but they are also designed for the application. I am almost certain you will be able to use the machined parts you have (I don't have my bearing catalogs handy here).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 10:53 pm:

I dunno about you but I don't like the looks of the design. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see where any kind of a thrust type bearing is taking the load. I'd want to see what is inside that sealed bearing. I'd put the whole setup on a shelf, buy a good or new driveshaft, a proven design pinion bearing and feel a whole lot better about it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 11:26 pm:

The axial load rating of standard cylindrical ball bearings is 50% of the static radial load rating.....which is a lot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 11:20 am:

Mark,

I don't see any advantage in using this setup except perhaps that you don't need to face the bearing at the universal end to get 0.003 play.

I recently visited a factory that makes hundreds of NASCAR race cars each year. I was able to see all the technology they use. They make all the parts there, including the rearend. The pinion gear is supported on a short shaft which is supported by two opposed tapered roller bearings.

Neil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 11:41 pm:

I could be wrong but I think millions of C cars were made with ball bearing pinions. The FORD thrust ball bearing is a true thrust bearing, but I do not think it was capable of extremely high loads.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 11:44 pm:

Here's how to calculate the thrust:

http://viewmold.com/Products/Technical%20Reference%20Sheet/Gears/MITER%20BEVEL%2 0GEARS-TOOTH%20STRENGTH%20THRUST.pdf


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Saturday, December 01, 2012 - 10:57 am:

Ted:

There is one question that is omitted in this analysis of thrust/torque and that is that engine HP is not the only source of force in a model T because of the internal transmission brake. If the engine is stock and can bring the Model T from a given speed to a new faster speed in a time of say T1 and then if the transmission brake alone can reduce the speed from that new faster speed back to the given speed in time T2 then if T2 is less than T1, the transmission braking on a Model T is more important as a source of ring/pinion/bearing forces than is the motor! A panic stop using the transmission brake alone might be more of a worst case load on the rear end parts than the motor's mere 20 HP or so.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Saturday, December 01, 2012 - 11:26 am:

Thanks John, you saved me some typing! You're totally correct.

Look, it comes down to this. Those are not the correct bearings for the application. Given the forces they will see, maybe they would work, but they're not meant to be used that way. There are plenty of good options, using correct, properly sized components. Why wouldn't you use one of them instead?


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