Can you answer this question ?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Can you answer this question ?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel M. Chapasko on Saturday, December 01, 2012 - 07:52 am:

I have a 1927 Fordor. It will not start unless the rear wheels are off of the ground. The engine turns over very slowly and will not start when in neutral and with the tires on the ground. The car has set dormant for years now. Could the clutch be stuck? Am new to Model T's. I have adjusted everything many times over. The neighbors are starting wonder why I sit in a running Model T with the wheels going around and never move.....
Dan Loveland, Colorado


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Saturday, December 01, 2012 - 08:07 am:

Daniel,

For your consideration:

See if you can arrange a meeting with Dave Huson, Berthoud Colorado. A very knowledgeable poster here, with a huge supply of parts!

Or Gene French of Windsor.

Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, December 01, 2012 - 09:32 am:

How does it turn with the hand crank? If you put it in neutral and turn the hand crank does the car creep forward? If so the clutch is stuck. Be sure the battery is fully charged when you use the starter. Be sure the oil is 30 weight or less. If the weather is very cold, it could still be hard to start because oil tends to get thicker when cold. A multi-grade oil will help in cold weather. If you can start it with the wheels jacked up, try going through the gears with it jacked up. Alternate from forward to reverse. Try putting on the foot brake with the engine running. It should not kill the engine if it is in neutral. After doing all the above, try lowering the wheels. Put chocks in front of the front wheels when you do this. Then try driving the car around. After doing all of the above. When you park the car, put it on a level surface and park with the lever all the way forward in high gear. That will force the oil out from between the clutch plates. Let the engine get cold and try to start it again. It should improve with time and driving.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house on Saturday, December 01, 2012 - 10:08 am:

Daniel,
What Norman said + be sure you have a good ground from the battery negative to the frame. Also, have someone with a voltmeter check the starter terminal when you press on the starter switch. IF you're using a 6 volt battery, that voltage should be the same or only a miniscule less at the starter when you press down on the starter switch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Saturday, December 01, 2012 - 11:06 am:

Daniel,

Yes, the clutch could be stuck. Or, it could just be the result of sitting for a long time. A few questions;

Have changed the oil and what viscosity did you use? Try 10w-30.

Have after you get it started, are you able to drive it?

After it's warmed up, can you then re-start it with the wheels on the ground and in neutral?

This is not so uncommon. It's usually the one or more of the following: sitting a long time, thick oil, improper adjustment, worn & grooved driving lugs in the high speed clutch pack. The level of severity in that list goes from least to greatest.

Try the easy stuff first!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, December 01, 2012 - 11:13 am:

The car is in Loveland Colorado. It's cold there right now. Unless the car is inside a heated garage something on the order of 5W-30 or 0W-30 is appropriate for this time of year.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, December 01, 2012 - 11:25 am:

A lot of this has already been addressed -- but since I finally got it typed I thought I would go ahead and post it.

Daniel,

From you earlier posting http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/319674.html?1351551360 you mentioned you had just purchased the 1927 FORDOR Sedan for restoration and a 1926 FORDOR sedan for parts. And that you are new to Model T Fords, so welcome to the hobby!

As Dave mentioned contacting those members near you can save you lots of typing and in many cases prevent mistakes that cost time or money etc. One of the fun things about the older cars is you can actually learn it on your own without anyone’s direct help – but it takes longer and there will be many “do overs” where you will discover the part fits just fine but does not function properly (you can rebuild the rear axle with ring gear on either side of the pinion – it fits great but on one side gives you two speeds in reverse and one really low speed forward and requires you to open it up and place the ring gear on the other side for the desired two speeds forward and one reverse). Or is some cases it is dangerous – for example the front spring perches can be installed/swapped [you can do that easily if you take them out of the front axle, you can also do that easily if you remove the wishbone and spindles and leave the spring perches in the axle but you reassemble the parts with the axle reversed to the original direction. You can also have that happen if a previous owner rebuilt it improperly and quit driving it because he/she couldn’t figure out what was wrong but was scarred to drive it. Trust me – if you swap them and have a negative 5.5 degrees of front wheel castor it will scare you and it can roll the car if you have a little speed when the wheels go full left or right and you can’t stop them with the steering wheel. For additional details please see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/80333.html?1233523419

You didn’t mention what you have already done. But if the car has 30 wt oil in it and you are not in a heated garage – you will have a lot of clutch drag from the cold oil. If that is the cause, once the engine is heated up with the car in neutral (i.e. emergency brake part way back) you should be able to step on the brake pedal (right pedal) and stop the rear wheels from spinning without the engine dieing. In general if the back wheel or wheels are jacked up and off the ground they will turn even with the transmission in neutral because of the drag of the oil. I’m not sure if you let the engine get to normal operating temperature if there is enough drag to continue to cause the jacked up wheel(s) to turn or not. We always jacked up the wheel on cold days when we had straight 30 wt oil in the engine so it was a lot easier to start. Once it started in less than a minute or so we could apply the foot brake to stop the rear wheel (we only jacked up the driver’s side because it was less jacking and it was easy to see when we stopped the wheel from turning.) We would have to add more gas than when the wheel was turning free – as the engine was still under more load than when the wheel was not stopped. I would think if you started the car with the wheel up – the wheel would continue to turn for a long time unless you applied the brake.

[Caution thread drift but a fond memory of mine: I know with our 1918 we could get it warmed up so it would usually give us a free start. And we would show folks how it would start without a starter. And on the very smooth flat concrete at the full service station [does that make me look older] I used to work at we would do the following. We could set it up with the ignition switch set to battery but the coils were not singing. [Remember the engine was warm and had just been shut off.] The emergency brake was off and the wheels were not chocked. We could then hit the left front fender with our fist to jar the car. The spark lever would move just a tad, the coil would become energized and the engine would start. The car would start creeping forward and we would jump onto the running board as the car went by or if we were really adventuresome we would let the car go a few feet further and then run after it. [Note it would have been much safer to have a qualified T driver sitting in the passenger seat when all that was going on – but we were younger and bullet proof back then. Also our knees were better back then – that would have been embarrassing and probably costly to fall down as the T continued to drive slowly away towards the public street -- yes that was the direction it was pointed].]

If you have not already done so recommend you obtain copies of Steve Jelf’s recommended books – you will find they are very helpful see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/305227.html [note the Model T bible – Ford Service has a link to the on-line version.

Also if you have not already run Milt Webb’s excellent “How to remove a T from mothballs” see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/8538.html and scroll down to Tom Mullin’s posting the third posting from the top.

Also your slow cranking may also be caused by poor 6volt electrical maintenance see Milt’s Six-Volt Battery Performance http://milttheinstructor.com/Six-Volt_Battery_Performance.pdf

And below are some items I usually try to share with folks that are new to Model T Fords:

Information about how to drive it see http://www.mtfca.com/books/bookmenu.htm and scroll down and click on the instruction manual close to your year. They were given to new Ford owners -- along with a how to drive from the dealer. A quick 10 minute check out with someone will save you lots of time.

See also:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/8538.html

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/6815.html

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/6/1662.html

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/15776.html

Jim Patrick posted : www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/102160.html. This thread contains an article from the July, 1963 issue of Popular Science, entitled, "Any Dope Could Drive a Model T", which I first read as a nine year old boy and saved until finally obtaining my own Model T at the age of 16 in 1970. In the days before the internet and Model T clubs, this article taught me how to drive my Model T. It is all I had and it served me well. I hope it helps you as well.



Before you start driving it in other than an empty area be sure to check out some of the safety items discussed at:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/13483.html

on cranking: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/68644.html?1224126132

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/69444.html

they are not fast – slow moving vehicle sign: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/96515.html?1246128999

Safety Glass is nice: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/72116.html

Use safety wire and not lock washers or cotter pins on the two studs holding the wishbone to the underside of the engine. http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/47898.html

Lots of safety items – looks like I’m behind on writing that safety article… http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/69429.html

Over center steering – shouldn’t happen on the later Ts – but if someone replaced your later teens steering gear housing or rebuilt it without the lock pin – it might happen: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/86345.html See Royce’s excellent posting on the different lengths the drag links came in and how that can cause / allow overcenter steering at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/300409.html


Types of safety wire: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/41859.html

Example of loss of brakes caused by drive shaft failure: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/47804.html

Top T tips – many of them are safety related also: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/85208.html

Tour safety check list: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/44331.html

And if you have a gas hot water heater in the garage – be very very careful. The float in a Model T Carb will sometimes stick (or trash in the valve) and the carb will leak gasoline. Not too bad if there are no sparks. However, several homes, garages and cars have been lost when a gas hot water heater was near by and the car leaked gas. If you do have a gas hot water heater in the garage area – one thing that can help reduce the risk is turning the gas off on the T (often you will need to work on the sediment bulb to get that function to work. Many of us install a second shut off at the carb as it is easier to reach (unless the engine is on fire – and then it is very important that the one on the gas tank works). The vendors such as Lang’s sell them see: http://www.modeltford.com/item/6055.aspx which looks a little more like an old style fitting or http://www.modeltford.com/item/6055RE.aspx which looks more modern. Both work. And you can adjust the garage door so it stays open about half inch to an inch. Gas fumes are heavier than air and will follow the floor to the open door (as well as to the gas hot water heater – which hopefully is mounted off the floor – newer homes that is the case – older homes – ours was on the floor).

And for some general background on your car see Bruce McCalley’s online encyclopedia at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/index.htm and click on your year model.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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