Question re: ID numbers for a Canadian '27 Tudor

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Question re: ID numbers for a Canadian '27 Tudor
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Meyland on Sunday, December 02, 2012 - 03:54 am:

Hello - I am looking at purchasing  a 1927 Canadian Tudor, and would like to learn as much as I can about it.

Engine assembly: C6688XX assembled in August, 1926 (according to Internet info)

C600,000 was made on 2nd Nov 1925 (same source)

Look next to the number for the casting date. 

It's cast in a circle it should have two numbers and a letter of the alphabet most likely C.

This engine has 5 (at 9:00 position) 20 (at 6:00 position) D (at 3:00 position)

Any information will be helpful!!!

Thank you!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Sunday, December 02, 2012 - 04:48 am:

Scott,

Commencing in 1923 the Canadian Model T casting dates took on a new format. Starting withthe letter A for the year 1923 they worked through the alphabet finishing with the letter E for 1927.

Regards, John

See drawing , which would have been cast 9/16/ 1924



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, December 02, 2012 - 07:41 am:

Scott,

I notice this is your first posting so welcome to the forum! I’m glad you are doing some research before you purchase the car. I always love Stephen Covey’s (RIP ) comment “Begin with the end in mind.” Often times the first posting is by someone who just purchased a Model T Ford. And that works also – sort of like jumping into the water to learn to swim. But sometimes folks are jumping into a swimming pool and at other times they are jumping off a ship in the middle of the ocean.

If you could please give us a little more background on your situation it would probably help us provide better information.

Do you want information only about this Tudor sedan or are you also interested in suggestions on what are some good things to consider when you are purchasing your first T?

Will this be your first Model T?

Have you driven and worked on Model Ts for a long time, short time, or not yet?

From what John Page posted the casting date for your engine block is May 20, 1926.

While some of the information on the Internet can be very accurate and helpful other postings can sometimes be a little off or even misleading. If you have time please post the link and/or information on where you obtained that Engine assembly: C 6688XX was assembled in August, 1926. That could be some new information we would like to use to correct our current information. Or depending on where it is posted we may want to send them a note that they may want to consider updating their listing.

Or it could be that you meant to type 688xxx instead of 6688xx. The following two pages of Canadian Ford Engine Serial numbers was prepared Jan, 1987 by Herman L. Smith (RIP) the Historical Consultant for Ford Motor Company of Canada, Limited. Sandra Notarianni the Ford Motor Company Historical Consultant sent it to Steven Miller on Aug 28, 2001 (cover letter available but not posted as it has Steven’s address listed). Steven kindly scanned it and sent it me. I believe it is a fairly representative list and we have posted it before. Note if I am reading it correctly, engine serial number C 6688xx would have been assembled in Jun 1926 rather than Aug 1926.





Usually a two month difference in the engine serial number date would make no difference in the cars. I.e. except for the serial numbers the cars would be identical. But when major changes were introduced – a two month difference could make the difference between having one of the last of the old models or the first of the new models. If that had been 1925 rather than 1926 – it could have made a big difference in what type of Tudor you had. In the case of 1926 – the 1926 models continued almost unchanged into the 1927 model year.

For your car, I would recommend lifting the front floorboard and looking down at the top of the frame rails for the serial number. It should match the engine serial number. If not either the engine or frame was changed [or the assembly line worker transposed some digits]. Check both sides as over the time of production it was stamped on either side. You should be able to see the original engine number that was supplied with the car (ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc25.htm
DEC 12, 1925 Acc. 94. Walter Fishleigh files, Ford Archives
"Motor number was first placed on frame side member R.H. on Dec. 12, 1925. Motor No. 12,861,044. Information obtained from Mr. Burns, Final Assy., Highland Park."

(Thank you to the owner near New Orleans who I think originally posted the photos below. I apologize – I did not label the file name with who originally posted it – and I have forgotten your name. If someone remembers – please send me a note so I can add that to the file name.) Below is an example of where to look on the frame. It is generally near the emergency brake cross shaft. )





Note is was and still is common practice to change Model T engines out. Back in the day folks often replaced a bad engine with a used engine to save cost. If there is not a serial number stamped on the frame – then be sure that the car you are looking at is actually a 1926-27 Tudor and not and earlier Tudor with a 1926 engine installed [they fit fine – just widen the slots on the floorboards for the pedals.] Although even if the engine and frame numbers match you could still have a different year body on the car – but it would require more fitting than just swapping an engine.

Also for a Canadian produced 1926-27 car – please look on the engine side of the firewall just above the hood rod support. You will normally find a letter and a number that indicates where the car was assembling. If you find one – please let us know what it is. . Based on our current available information the letters used were:

F for Ford City -- Ford Canada's main plant
M for MONTREAL, QUEBEC
T for Toronto, Ontario
W for Winnipeg, Manitoba
V for Vancouver, British Columbia

Thanks to Michael Velling for posting the photo from his 1926 Canadian runabout which is reposted below:






Again there is more help available – but please let us know what you want – specific only to the 1926 Tudor or more general etc. Also if you have not already visited with the local Model T Ford clubs near you – they would be one of your best sources for information and advice. They are listed at: http://mtfca.com/clubpages/chapters.htm and also http://www.modelt.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=15 If you would like information on what the difference is between the two major clubs please see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/324872.html Our local South Carolina Club is a member of both groups as are many individuals.

Good luck with search.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, December 02, 2012 - 07:43 am:

Correction: the 1927 Tudor you are looking at.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Meyland on Sunday, December 02, 2012 - 09:34 am:

Hap/John,

Wow - I cannot thank you enough for the thorough and quick response(s).

To begin with: yes, the information that I had discovered before was in fact the same information you shared from Herman Smith (RIP) and when I looked before I had entered C6888XX rather than the correct C6688XX (my mistake.)

And I had found it through and older forum on this site.

So fortunately no conflicting information. But the casting information John shared was better than what I had uncovered previously.

So since the engine was cast in May, 1926 and assembled in June, 1926, would/could that mean that assuming it's the original engine in the car that the car is actually a 1926 Model?

Based on your excellent/informative response above I will look further at the frame and body information - at this point I only have the engine assembly and casting numbers that I shared.

To briefly answer your other question(s):

Yes, this would be my first Model T - I am pleased to say that I have done some research re: local resources and there is an exceptional local club that has been incredibly helpful to date (Casual T's in Southeast Michigan), which is part of the MTCFI. Thank you also for the information you shared comparing the MTCFA/MTCFI.

As my research continues I will certainly share more about what I learn re: the car and my next steps.

Again I cannot thank you enough for your feedback and knowledge sharing.

Respectfully,

Scott M.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Enos Wiseman on Sunday, December 02, 2012 - 10:19 am:

Great source of information. I guess I am one of those guys who went into the ocean from the ship. Maybe a mistake but the price was right. I guess I will find out eventually. I'm learning lots and enjoying all of it.
Now I have some numbers to look for.
Thanks again


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Enos Wiseman on Sunday, December 02, 2012 - 01:15 pm:

Hi:
Not meaning to hijack this thread. I have some number's I've located on my car that you might be able to help me with.
On the engine in the circle: 8 in the 9 o'clock position,2 in the 6 o'clock and a D. So I presume that would mean Aug 2nd 1926?
Also the number on the chassis is C634428 and the number on the firewall is T1815. You said the T would mean that it's assembled in Toronto,what would the 1815 mean?
Thanks
Enos


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, December 02, 2012 - 08:25 pm:

Scott,

To my knowledge we do not have a nice “model year” time line for the Canadian Model Ts. Bruce McCalley (RIP) used Aug 1925 to Aug 1926 for the USA 1926 model year [ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1926.htm ] and Aug 1926 to May 26, 1927 for the 1927 USA model year [ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1927.htm ] Note he had a month of overlap for 31 days in Aug. Remember that the Highland Park Plant would switch over to a new model year before the USA branch plants. If you use that same dating, and if the engine serial number you shared is original to your car, then your car would be a 1926 model year also. If the car is registered as a 1927 – I would not be concerned – but I would want to check and see if there was a reason why. For example does the engine serial number stamped onto the frame go with an engine that was produced later – even in 1927? The description of the 1927 cars at that same link: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1927.htm says that the frame was heavier, there were some minor changes, but it was mostly like the later 1926 cars.

Note please check for a casting date on the transmission cover also. Ford of Canada usually has a casting date at the top of the transmission covers and it also uses the letters for the years with D for 1926 and E for 1927 and that same circle layout. Below is a photo of a transmission cover with a “C” casting date and the other numbers are very difficult to read. Thank you Jim Golden for posting that previously. That bolts to the back of the engine -- this one is a 1925.



And in the case of the 1926-27 engines the transmission will have two ears on the back top of the cover for two bolts to go through and into the rear of the engine block. It makes it stronger.

With your interest in details, I think you would find the CD version of Bruce McCalley’s “Model T Comprehensive Encyclopedia” very helpful. While it covers primarily the USA production it also has some Canadian information. And of course many times the part was the same for the USA and Canada with the exception of the “Made in USA” or “Made in Canada.” There were also quite a few parts that were different – for example the Canadian horn button that was mounted on top of the steering wheel was produced in the USA but was only used on the Canadian produced cars. To order the CD please see the advertisement at: http://www.modelt.org/index.php?option=com_aclassf&Itemid=17&ct=&md=details&id=225 that advertisement will drop off the board around Dec 20 but another will be put back on.

Bruce’s book is also now available as a soft copy – and is available from the club (also probably the vendors) at: http://modeltstore.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/model-t-ford-the-car-that-changed-the-world The CD is more up-to-date but the book is really nice also.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, December 02, 2012 - 09:01 pm:

This is an answer for Enos who owns a different 1926-27 Canadian cut off touring car – and asked some similar number questions.

Enos,

Yes, you are correct that the casting date on your engine would be Aug 2, 1926 and the engine serial number of
C6344xx would place it during Mar 1926. You will notice that from those two numbers we could think the engine was assembled (that is when the serial number is stamped – on a completed engine and transmission assembly) before it was cast or one of the following may have happened:

I’m tired and miss reading things – that happens. If so please post a note and I will read it tomorrow when I am rested.

The casting date may have been put together wrong at the factory (we have some casting dates that were installed upside down back when Ford put them horizontally. Ford would probably not reject a good casting just because the casting date was improperly applied. Although they would talk to the crew about it.). Note that a Feb 8, 1926 casting date could have been assembled on Mar 1926 – so perhaps they had it wrong that day?

The engine block could have been replaced early in the cars life. I.e. if they let the engine freeze or ran the car low on oil and through a rod through the block in Sep 1926, it is likely they would have had the Ford dealer install a new block. The Ford dealers were instructed that when the replacement block was installed they would stamp the original engine number onto the block to keep the integrity of the car’s serial number. Often with a several year old car – the engine would have been replaced with a used engine rather than a new block. And if it was several years later – then the block probably would have been a 1927 rather than a 1926 block. (By the way two of our Model Ts had the blocks replaced based on the engine number verses casting date. This situation was mentioned by Bruce McCalley (RIP) on page 501 of his book and in his CD.)

The serial number could have been stamped incorrectly – but that is much less likely than the casting date being wrong.

You may have misread the number or typed the numbers wrong (I do that a lot myself).

A good way to verify that is to look on your frame and compare that number to the engine number. If they are both the same C6344xx then it is highly possible that the block was replaced if it does have the Aug 2, 1926 casting date.

Thank you for sharing that your car had the T 1815. Please confirm it is located on the engine side of the firewall about an inch below the hood rod. If so yes the T indicated the body was originally assembled to the chassis at the Toronto Branch. We do not yet know what the numbers following the letter stand for. I am trying to gather enough samples to be able to figure out if there is a pattern. I would suspect there is one. But I am not sure if we will be able to use those numbers to help date the cars eventually or not. But that is one of my hopes. I.e. if you find a 1926-27 Canadian body without a chassis – we will be able to tell roughly when it was assembled. We are not there and it may turn out that the numbers have no relationship to the month, day, and year the car was assembled. In the USA, the Branch Plants sometime also included the date the body was mated to the chassis in addition to which branch the car was produced.

I hope that helps and please let us know what the serial number stamped on top of your car’s frame rail is. Also please post and/or send photos.

By the way – Cut off tourings are kind of special to me – our 1915 cut off named Blackie was the first car I ever drove.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Enos Wiseman on Monday, December 03, 2012 - 10:21 pm:

Hi:
The last posting contained the number from the chassis/frame. The number on the fire wall was located to the left of the hood support rod"looking at it from the front of the engine". I will try to attach a picture of each. Where would the number be located on the engine?
The site will only let me upload two for some reason.
Thanks again


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 07:41 am:

Enos, [the 1926 - 27 cut off touring]

Starting sometime in 1912 and continuing to 1927 the engine serial number was stamped into the pad located over the water inlet on the side of the engine. The photo below shows the location [note that is engine #10,000,000 and it was painted white -- the others were NOT painted white.]



Ford stamped the engine number once the engine assembly was complete (transmission, head etc) and then they stamped the frame to match the engine number. So originally they would have been the same number when the car rolled off the assembly line.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Enos Wiseman on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 10:38 am:

Good morning:
The number on the engine is the same one C634428
Thanks so much
Enos


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