Restoration....what do you consider as acceptable?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Restoration....what do you consider as acceptable?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 08:19 pm:

My question is asked because I saw a series of videos on Youtube that made me cringe. Cringe, because either the guy didn't know anything about the Model T and restoration, or he just didn't care.....And the fact that he was restoring it for another person, and they didn't seem to be questioning him.....

I don't want to tell you the poster's name, but if you search around enough you'll find them.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 08:54 pm:

What is acceptable is entirely up to the owner. It could be anything from not doing anything, to make is look like it just left the factory, to making a full blown V8 powered hot rod. Thankfully there are no rules or laws governing it.
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 09:12 pm:

Rebuild, Restore, Overhaul, Fix it up, Hot rod, Speedster? And on and on. It's all stuff you can do with your Model T. Unless the buyer or consumer is involved they're all just words. It all comes down to buyer beware. Anybody purchasing anything in this day and age has to assume the supplier will do whatever's necessary to take his money. Including unscrupulous business practices. There's no such thing as seller be honest it's all buyer beware. And it sucks. Well I went a little overboard, some guys can be trusted forever. I would a couple different guys in our club to provide exactly what I ask for. I also there are some guys that I've dealt with in the past that would give me nothing but the best. But there are some guys out there that I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 09:35 pm:

Mike has hit the nail on the head. For a lot of people, it's all about the money. Cutting corners any way they can, and once it is done, it might look pretty, but it is nothing but a polished turd that some sap just blew his life savings on. It's an absolute shame that it goes on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 09:57 pm:

" My question is asked because I saw a series of videos on Youtube that made me cringe. Cringe, because either the guy didn't know anything about the Model T and restoration, or he just didn't care.....And the fact that he was restoring it for another person, and they didn't seem to be questioning him.....

I don't want to tell you the poster's name, but if you search around enough you'll find them..... "


William,

Why are you starting thread here questioning
restoration work done by someone else for profit
( I assume ) .....

Are you trying to dissuade others from using
this persons' services ?

If you are not this persons' customer,
seems like you are sticking your nose where
it does not belong .... :-(




Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Floyd Voie - Chehalis, Washington on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 10:00 pm:

I'm working on re-doing a "custom restoration" right now. While it's not a T it is a vintage Ford.
My suggestion to anyone that is having work done at significant expense is to give the shop a digital camera and have them document all work with pictures. If there is rust to be cut out, a picture of the rusted area and the cutout and the patch....then you know it wasn't just bondoed over. Same could be done with engine work, ect.
This will not only help you know what was done but if you sell the car will let a buyer know as well.
A reputable shop will not mind doing this and has most likely done it before.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 10:50 pm:

Jim,

I started the thread because I was just truly flabbergasted at what I saw. If you saw it, you would question it too. I've seen a lot of crap on Youtube. I've also seen some really incredible work done on cars presented on Youtube. This isn't one of them.

I realize that people have different meanings as to the term "restoration". That's not the point. AND no, I don't care if someone used this person or not, not that I would recommend them because I don't know them, or anything about them.

Personally, I don't see why you felt it necessary to quote what I said verbatim in your response to my post. Not that I'm mad at you, because I don't know you, either.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 11:10 pm:

We have another water pump, distributor, what oil, etc. discussion in disguise, but worth thinking about.

This reminds me of “Different Strokes For Different Folks.”

The word restoration by itself has little real meaning because it depends what people assume a restoration is. This is further complicated by unscrupulous folks using the ambiguity of the word to line their pockets.

For example my 1919 Hack had a non-professional “restoration” in the mid 50’s where my dad did the work and endeavored to have everything remain the same except for minor mechanical repairs and the paint. He went as far as insisting that the paint be enamel – not lacquer and the surface pitting caused by rust was not smoothed over. It is not a $50,000 perfect period exact trailer queen, or a dependable tour T, or vehicle that has been pieced together from many sources, or highly modified T, but it has a special place in the hobby that some folks understand.

I know of a 1919 hack in a nearby town that claims to be original but it is stretching reality a bit because much of the body was lost and they copied many parts of my dad’s 19 – Is it a restoration or a copy? It certainly looks good.

Is a reproduction Cobra Kit car the same as an original Shelby Cobra? They may drive the same and the parts may look the same but there is a difference! Try to pass off a repro for an original and see what happens if your caught.

In my opinion a T with an OHV V8 is not a restored T – It is a custom car.

A T with somewhat period correct stuff is OK because it maintains the essence of a vintage T with leaking oil, a fun two speed transmission, 4 cylinders, smells, noises, and a look at yesterday.

Restoration? I haven't a clue as to what it means, but maybe we can get a government panel to conduct a study and issue a 5,573 page report so we can get an official definition and be unconfused. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 11:17 pm:

Fred brings up very good points, which basically I am trying to get at. And the videos I speak of allude to a certain aspect of the hobby that does no good for us as a collective whole.

My touring is a non-professional "restoration", and is along the same lines as his hack.

Just wanting dialog....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 11:21 pm:

Is this the guy with 20+ videos? Because if it is, though he seems to be doing a bit of over-building, he's doin' OK in my book.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 11:25 pm:

I'm not sayin' but your close...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 11:26 pm:

I mean "you're"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 11:28 pm:

Now take for instance something like Clayton Paddison (sic) did. Is that really a Model T or a resto-mod? Not knocking it. He did what he wanted and nicely too + I saw an article on his salt flat runs in a hot rod mag recently which is where it belongs actually.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 11:35 pm:

But Clayton didn't restore a Model T. He built a specific type of car from a Model T.

I guess I am old fashioned, but I term the word "restoration" as somewhere between looking as though it's been used but cared for it's whole life all the way up to the way it came from the factory. However, let me clarify that I would not consider any structural modifications to the car as a restoration. Repairs, yes. Modifications, no.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 11:35 pm:

I've restored vehicles to the definition I call restored. It's my definition and involves tearing every nut and bolt out of the vehicle until a bare frame is sitting on the floor. The next step involves replacing any bad part of the frame including cracked cross members, bent and broken "X" members etc. Then sandblasting and powder coating and... And after 3 years and anywhere from $30,000.00 to infinity dollars you start getting rid of the bugs in it that you missed such as a brand new leaking waterpump and a leaking re-cored radiator. And of course the guy who recored it shut down his shop and left town. And I can go on about fighting with shops that do lousy chrome plating and take over a year to do it and having to stop payment on an extremely large personal check. That's what a restoration is to me. You might say I was the contractor and did a lot of the work but to restore something is to tear it down and put it back together and make it like brand new. Then stand behind your work or at least have vendors that stand behind their work. As far as all the other terms. They are what they are. But if you tell me you restored something it better meet my criteria and that's no bull sh)t. But if you're going to restore something for me I'm going to be in your shop way more than you want me to be. If you tell me I can't I'll take my business elsewhere. If you're going to sell me a restored vehicle you better have pictures and receipts and impartial witnesses. You better be willing to let me tear into the vehicle to the point where I take things apart. You better be happy to put it on a lift and show me the work you've done. And you better believe I'm still not going to believe you. I've been burned! I hated it! I'm defensive about it! And I'll be damned if it'll happen again.

However if I burn you, that's your damn tough luck. :-) I couldn't help myself I had to say it just to add a little chuckle to this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 11:40 pm:

I like that!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 11:45 pm:

Oh just stop beating around the bush. If you give us enough clues to figure out who it is, it's no different than just telling us...grin..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Friday, December 07, 2012 - 11:56 pm:

Restoration is normally where something is repaired and refinished to near as what it would or should have looked like when new.
It is usually acceptable to replace unobtainable irreparable parts with reproduction or similar parts that may have come from a different company altogether as long as it does not compromise the car and the substitute part is not presented to a prospective buyer as the correct piece that was issued when it was new.

(i would like to know these videos as the only ones i could find were of a home made wooden truck and a car that was being resold that had fairly good workmanship used on it)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 12:07 am:

I gotta admit. My best restoration involved a '38 Ford that had a Flathead V8 motor in it. It also had a '39 transmission and I rebuilt the rear end and put 3.54 gears in it. The motor was out of a '46 and had high compression Offenhauser heads and intake manifold. If we'd bored it anymore we would have been looking through the side of the bores. We put in a Max One camshaft and stronger springs on the valves. A Mercury crankshaft and Hedman headers. We ran two Holley 94 carburetors. We like the fact we put dual exhaust with turbo mufflers on it. And on and on and on and I just plain forgot some of the details because it's been 6 years ago since we finished it. And yet, the fact that we took it all the way down to the bare frame I still say we restored it. Because it still looked like a '38 Ford when we were done.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 12:55 am:

Would that '38 ford technically be called a period correct resto'mod'?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 02:11 am:

I have an old, big, dictionary. I quoted from it on a previous discussion of this subject. I won't quote it this time. Suffice to say, TECHNICALLY, if a car won't run, because the distributor coil wire broke. And you get it running by putting on a new purple wire from the local auto supply, you have "restored" the car. You have returned it to a state it was before, "restored" it to running.
Pretty much anything beyond that, you must clearly define specific to a given object (vehicle). If it is not yours, whether you wish to purchase it or not, look and ask specific questions. If it IS yours, whether you wish to sell it or not, say what you wish about it within the boundaries of your conscience.
But the word "restoration"? Too many people apply their own definition and expect everyone else to understand it and agree with them. They are making a mistake. That is one of the reasons I often use some other word, like resurrection for a car I have returned from way worse than a "good original". Or reworked instead of rebuilt. People haven't already fooled themselves with their own definitions and opinions. It makes them wonder, and ask, if they want to know.

Mike G, I loved the little twist you put on the end! And, according to my dictionary, your truck was restored.
May the discussion continue.
Drive carefully, and enjoy the holidays! W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 02:59 am:

From the Ether:

"The modifications on MY car make it safer, more reliable and improve it’s appearance. The modifications on YOUR car are unnecessary, troublesome, gaudy and ruin the whole character of the Model T!"

My take: If your Model T doesn't have era correct finish/paint, you would be a hypocrite to criticize the mods on mine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 03:28 am:

Well, in my book:
Repair is when you make something functional—without modifying it beyond it’s original design
Restore is when you bring something back to like-new condition
Conserve is when you stabilize an object without destroying any of the original object.
Preservation is similar to conservation except that conservation often involves some restoration, preservation avoids (as much as possible) any changes/improvement.
This is about as clear as mud, I suspect.
Years ago, when I did restoration for a living, I had one customer who had finally pried his 31 Ford coupe from the automotive shop that had had it for a few years “restoring” it. The motor wouldn’t run more than a few minutes. The paint looked pretty good, but it was only painted on the outside, the door openings and anything interior was not repainted. The wood was mostly rotten.
I found sand in the gas tank, and throughout the front axle (wheel bearings, tie rod ends, etc.) I managed to pull the tank and clean it, and repaint the interior areas (after carefully replacing the body wood without damaging the exterior paint). The transmission was also full of sand. It’s been so long, I forget what I had to do to the engine, but I suspect it also had to be completely gone through—at least to get rid of the sandblasting sand!
Originally I was asked to just upholster the car, including the top. The owner was able to sue the body shop for enough to cover my repair bills.
Another car I did work on (but never finished—long story there, short version was the owner died and the survivors didn’t want to spend the money!) a 1936 Ford Trunkback convertible sedan. The owner bought it in 1937, had Carson put a chopped top on it (reportedly his 4th top), added a pines accessory grill and fender trim. The car had sat in an open barn for decades and the floors were rusted out—the kids had busted the special dome lights and some other stuff. Oh, somewhere early in its life, the guy had changed to juice brakes.
So, would restoring this car be taking back to factory, or to what it was modified to when it was a year old? I voted for the latter! I have lost track of the car, and if it was ever finished—it may still be sitting back in the barn on the family ranch! And this was some 23 years ago!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 10:06 am:

It is his car, he can do what he wants to it. If I don't like it, that is my opinion, but that doesn't mean he is wrong and I am right. I see wonderful craftsmanship in what Clayton does. I enjoy looking at his work. It is not something I would ever do, but it is entertaining.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 10:19 am:

In this country its to each his own BUT I really hate to see a solid original T made into a bucket T Hot Rod. Maybe an old body or whats left of but not a good original.
It kind of reminds me years ago when guys would take a 57 Chev Hardtop and shorten and narrower it up to build a round round race car. Man that made me cringe even back then!
If I am restoring a T I try to keep it at least 95% original if possible and money allows.
I am glad I can do that if I wish to!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel(Indiana Trucks)Star City In on Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 07:02 pm:

"Restore is when you bring something back to like-new condition "

This is how I feel. Anything done to change it is a modification. Some modifications are done to make it safe or look better than it was when new but it is still a modification.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 07:12 pm:

Maybe instead of telling you I restored, rebuilt, overhauled, modified, yadda yadda, I'll just describe some of what I did so you can come to your own conclusion. If I took it to the frame and built it back up then I thing you know how far I went with it. If I tell you I repainted it and put on new tires then you might also think of asking some questions of me. I hate one word descriptions because your restored isn't going to be my restored. Hell, I'm a "young" guy. I'm only 62 years old. It's all perspective.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Sunday, December 09, 2012 - 01:24 am:

OK Try this -
Think about the restoration of the Mona Lisa instead of a T

Your choices

Leave it alone
Wash it
Touch it up a bit
Do a major refurb with paint replacement and color correction.
Use old style paint and an old canvas to make another
Make a copy with a new canvas and modern paint.
Take a picture of it, blow it up, and frame it
Make a new picture with a modern girl from Hooters.


Just thinking!


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