600 diff oil alternatives

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: 600 diff oil alternatives
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Russell Prideaux on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 09:18 am:

Nobody in my neck of the woods stock this.
Is there an alternative?
Any one tried making there own with grease and oil mix?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Wolf on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 09:37 am:

A friend of mine uses straight STP.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 09:38 am:

i.use.sythentic.90-140,.as.it.has.no.sulfur.to.make.stink,.or.eat.brass...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 09:39 am:

Henry's Model T & A parts in Ballan, Victoria isn't exactly in your neck of the woods, but same continent is a plus :-) http://alturl.com/9vpgb
They have 600W for $13/litre.

You can also use a modern gear oil, Lubriplate APW 140w if you can find it in one quart bottles: http://www.modeltford.com/item/140W.aspx - likely thinner alternatives too, if you have modern neoprene sealings inside of the outer bearings.

Here's one earlier discussion about rear end lube: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/81149.html?1234066650


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 10:01 am:

Don't waste your time with 600W! SAE 140 is plenty good for a T differential.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 10:13 am:

Roger K.

I think the correct Lubriplate number is APG 140 rather than APW 140. The APG lube is specially formulated to cling to surfaces on devices that may not be used for longer periods of time and thus is ideal for us Model T folks who have to park their T for the winter months. I used to sell this on my web site but it has to be bought from bearing dealers and it was a constant negotiation and hassle so I stopped carrying it. APG 90 works best for Ruckstell rear end. Many folks confuse the viscosity issue by thinking that 600 Wt gear oil is thicker than 140 Wt gear lube. Gear oil is measured on a different scale than gear lube. I believe the lube that Lang is selling is APG which I should also mention is a GL4 type so it does not attack brass thrust washers in the rear end although I think that issue is over blown since those washers are far more likely to wear out before they are harmed by any additives. I run APG 140 in all my own T's and have used it for years. I like it but your mileage may vary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 10:31 am:

Sorry Russel & all, John is of course correct. Thought I could hold three letters in my short time memory for three seconds but noo..
Got to remember to write it down or use ctrl + c/ctrl +v all the time :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 11:10 am:

Horseless Carriage guys' secret formula for gear oil in any differential or sliding gear transmission;
Mix a lb. long fiber wheel bearing grease with one bottle of STP and one qt. SAE 140 gear oil.
Mix 20 minutes with a double vane mixer.

I know a guy, some guys, I know an old time mechanic, etc. etc. that uses straight STP.

I know a guy who uses straight cocain 3 times a day too, but I don't recommend it.

I know about fifty model T owners who use straight 140 gear oil in their differential too, but a statement like that doesn't seem to carry much weight.

If you use 140 in a stock diff and 90 in a Ruckstell you can't go wrong.

With all the new trick seals you'd be best off with 85-140 or whatever sells cheap and is available with the last number being 140, in any differential. T, Ruckstell or modern.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 11:30 am:

Assuming your shipping costs would be more than the product itself and that's why your looking for an alternative. John Regan's advice would be what I'd follow. Closer to and possibly better than the standard 600wt. which is what I've always used. I'm not the adventurous type so experimenting on the T isn't an option for me. I wouldn't do it on my modern which has a warranty.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 11:32 am:

Hi, I have driven tens of thousands of miles in more than two decades in T's using regular "off the shelf" 80w90 or 85w140 differential lubricant from the local auto parts stores and the axles have shown no ill effects from its use.

I know this is a subject of much debate amongst T hobbyists, so you will get a ton of different reports.

The only thing I am telling you is that I know for a fact it is working good in my axles over long time periods and lots of miles. It is also what I tell my customers to use in axles I rebuild. This is actual information - not speculation, use it as you wish.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Crouch on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 11:35 am:

I run molasses in mine


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 12:10 pm:

I heard that mixing a little sawdust in with the oil will quiet it down. Good for a car you are wanting to sell.

Neil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 12:40 pm:

Mental note: Never buy a used car from Neil Kaminar.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sven Jakobsson on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 03:33 pm:

This is what I have managed to pump in my rear axle. Bought it locally here in Sweden.

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/vintage,-veteran-&-classic/transoil_250

Best regards, Sven


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnH on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 05:22 pm:

I use also Penrite Transoil 250 which is meant to be a direct equivalent.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 05:25 pm:

I thought you were supposed to mix oatmeal with the molasses?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 06:03 pm:

I use 85W-140 from Tractor Supply.I tracked down the Mil Specs it meets and they preclude any corrosion problem with bronze. Its relatively inexpensive and readily available.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Manuel Voyages, ACT Australia on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 07:15 pm:

Aaron,
That secret formula sounds interesting, but it seems to be a large quantity.
I am wondering which long fiber wheel bearing grease they use?
Cheers
Manuel in Oz


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robbie Price on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 07:48 pm:

I am planning on using MOBIL Cylinder Oil, 600 W Super
Cylinder Oil, Extra High Performance, 600 W Super Cylinder Oil, Viscosity Index 95, ISO Viscosity Grade 460, Viscosity 460 cSt @ 40 C, Viscosity 30.5 cSt @ 100 C, Flash Point 282 C, Pour Point -9 C), Brown, For Steam Cylinders, Couplings, Bearings Under High Temperature and Load Conditions.

Does anyone see anything wrong with this?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 08:24 pm:

steam cylinder oil is fine, most 600w oils are designed for double duty, steam or heavy bearing applications.

any good oil distributor should have it or be able to get it for you.

regular gear oil should work fine, just make sure its GL-4 not GL-5 which contains sulphur and will erode bronze, the only problem is that my rearend leaks with 600w....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White - Sheridan, MI on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 08:49 pm:

Boy. You learn something here everyday. That big round thingy between the rear wheels needs some kind of greasy stuff. Who knew?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 09:13 pm:

Easy decision if you're in Australia. Either Penrite Transoil 250 or Transoil 140, both have NO additives which is perfect for a T diff.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 09:45 pm:

Be carefull about the GL5, it will tarnish the brass spacers after a few years. It may even eat some over a peiod of a few thousand years.
GL4 is first choice.
It's kind of like waxing your car so it will get less wind resistance, therefore better gas milage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 09:50 pm:

GL-5 will tarnish the brass thrust washers but no one on this earth will live long enough to tell that any brass has been eaten by it.
You have any idea how many cars are running around with brass synchro rings and GL-5 gear oil?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Borland. Bathurst. NSW. Australia. on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 09:57 pm:

Castrol Agri-Super. Use it in the "T" rear end and the transmission of the Grey Fergy.

Peter


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, December 14, 2012 - 02:44 am:

Years ago, a very good friend put a can-full Of STP into a Muncie transmission that was blowing 600 gear oil out anyplace it could find to ooze. It was at the beginning of a long tour, a full week and many hundreds of miles to go. It stopped the leak, and did well for many years. For that purpose, I might recommend STP (also known as Stay Together Please). But run only STP in any gear device? Never.
Molasses? Don't forget, it is said to be mildly acidic (good for cleaning rust off of old parts. I would wonder what it would do to bearings in the long run? I would also guess that Kevin C is joking.
T Muncies and era Warfords usually shift a little better with a slightly heavier than 140 gear oil. Anything heavier than 600 (I know, which one?), I would worry about gear oil not getting into the bearings fast enough at long high speed runs.
Drive carefully, and enjoy the holidays! W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Friday, December 14, 2012 - 03:03 am:

Watch out using molasses, it will eat away some steels beside the rust.

We had a Molasses tank at work to remove rust, one guy put in a Model A crankshaft. When he pulled it out it had eaten holes in the shaft all over completely ruining it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Friday, December 14, 2012 - 05:19 am:

When i ordered the 600W from an Australian T parts Supplier i received Penrite Transoil T250 as suggested by Constantine.

Alan Long
Perth Western Australia


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Russell Prideaux on Friday, December 14, 2012 - 07:48 am:

Thanks everyone. I will ask the local Auto Shop if they can order the Transoil 250.
I was thinking grease and moreys oil stabiliser but was concerned about any ep component in the grease that may eat at the brass.

Aaron, it is interesting what you say about GL5 (ep) oils.
I am pretty sure the Roadranger gearbox (heavy truck applications) uses brass in the range synchroniser.

GL5 oils are a big no no and using them will void the warranty.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Friday, December 14, 2012 - 09:18 am:

I have wondered about the avalibility of 600W. Is it used in any modern applications or just for old cars rearends?
I like using something thats readily avaliable and STP is just about everywhere. You can make a good mix using just enough 30 wt oil so it will pour a little easier.
It great for almost any gearbox application and great for putting engines together.
If 600w is sold by the T vendors it must sell good enough to stock it and be an item for the 'purist' folks who want to be totally original.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Friday, December 14, 2012 - 09:33 am:

Somewhere on the forum I read that modern APG 140 is actually equivalent to the old 600wt.

Did I imagine this ? Comments ?

schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Crouch on Friday, December 14, 2012 - 09:44 am:

Yes I was just joking on the Molasses!!! Please don't use that!! LOL


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Friday, December 14, 2012 - 12:06 pm:

It stands to reason that thicker stuff would stay in some rear axles better than thinner stuff, which could be a good thing on several levels. We used to get this oil in 55 gallon barrels that was rated as ISO 2200. It was rather thick and black and tar-like and worked well in leaky gear boxes. It especially worked well in Model A transmissions as it not only reduced leakage, but seemed to make them shift better. Something changed and it was no longer available. I asked my oil guy what to replace it with and he suggested 000 grease, which is a pink grease (looks like strawberry jam) that is sort of liquid. It is apparently used in open geared machinery as it has some tenacity. We now buy that stuff (000 grease) in big drums and sell it for use in old gear boxes. I have been using it in my T for the past few years and it seems to work well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 06:23 am:

Where is the comment about roofing tar?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Russell Prideaux on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 08:21 am:

Do you have oil stabilisers such as Wynns, Moreys, Lucas etc over there? We get them all here, all sold as Americas favourite additive.
Same as 4wd tyres. We have a brand here " Coopers Tyres. Americas favourite" do you have them or is this just more advertising bull?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 09:01 pm:

We did have Wynns Friction Proofing and Lucas is selling well the last few years but I never heard of Moreys but then I am not much for additives. I do like the Lucas stuff, it'll shut down the noise on a power steering pump almost immediately.
Then ofcourse we have saw dust and oatmeal for noisey rear ends.
I have never heard of 4 wheel drive tires.? Is that a joke? But we do have some directional tires that only work on one side of the car. I had some, they are a pain when you need to put the spare on.
Coopers Tires are popular here. Are they spelled your way or ours? Tires or Tyres?

You are not suggesting advertisers would bull__ anybody are you? We do have a few of those.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Russell Prideaux on Sunday, December 16, 2012 - 04:26 am:

4WD Tyres. Generic name for light truck tyres aimed at the off road/ on road market. (Read Toyota Landcruiser type)
Tend to be Mud Terrain or All Terrain etc etc. I think Lucas and Moreys are very similar. I have had very good results with Moreys in Heavy Vehicle applications. It is like treacle and very sticky which is why I thought it might work well as part of a Diff oil recipe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome Hoffman, Hays KS on Sunday, December 16, 2012 - 11:52 am:

In a year or two I'll get my TT Ruxtl together and have a chance for driving it a lot. What would be an oil to use in a worm gear application? I'm planing to up grade/change the outer roller bearings to modern sealed type.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susanne on Sunday, December 16, 2012 - 06:32 pm:

Pardon me for stirring this can of worms up, but I look at it this way...

We (all of us) take differentials 100 years old that have run 600W in them, and still use them. For some strange reason, they didn't blow up using this evil 600W that Ford said to use.

How many people had to have T Differential parts made by a machine shop due to the failure of what ran in them for decades? I venture far more C#e^y owners replaced axles than T owners Diffs.

I've followed the whole "600W is evil destructive lube" for years. Personally - I don't buy it. The ONLY diff I've had come apart was the only one I had running 85-140. All the others (most Ruxstells) have had the evil 600W in them and still run. Heck, they shift smooth and have yet to howl or chunk themselves to death. This after 15-20 years of running it (not to mention the 60-80 before that!)

Maybe I'm just imagining how the recommended lube works... but strangely, it does. Maybe they didn't have late 20th century gear lube back then, but they designed the gearbox around what they had. --shrug--

Sus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Sunday, December 16, 2012 - 09:35 pm:

I don't think anybody HATES 600W, I just think there is better, easier to obtain gear oil out there.
I have never used 600W but I have never been anywhere that had some for sale when I needed it.
The T differential was made well, and like Susanne suggests it was probably designed around the lube that was available in those days.
The large roller bearings have lots of room for thick gear oil.
I also agree that 600W is 'good enough' but I also believe modern gear oils are many times better.
My next T rear end will get synthetic AMSOIL 190. They also have 250. At $16 a qt. I think it is good protection against wear, bad smell from the leaks in my garage and corrosion. And it will not need changing again for the rest of my life. Oh, and it won't eat brass.


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