Is the engine block the only place to find the serial number ? I know the Model A's are also stamped on the frame.
After October 1925 the Model T engine number was stamped on the frame too in a visible location. The Model A engine number frame stamping was covered up by the body.
Ron the Coilman
Beginning in December, 1925, the engine number was also stamped on the top of the frame usually right under where the (front seat)passengers feet are. There are some reports that the number is sometimes on the top of the left side frame rail though. This applies to TT trucks also beginning at the same time. If I'm not mistaken the start date for this was December 12, 1925.
Ron - you're faster than I am!
In my advancing age you may be more correct on the date of this running change than I? But the factory letter we are both quoting speaks for itself.
Ron the Coilman
Prior to 1916, they also had what was called a car number. This was stamped on a brass plate, attached to the inside of the firewall over the steering column. Usually it is several thousand numbers ahead of the serial number on the engine.
Fellows, the barn fresh ute pictures I posted on March 23 had an aluminium plate nailed to the original firewall, and stamped into the blank space was the car's engine number, indicating the original engine was still in the car. I have never come across this before on a 22 model T. This car was of course of canadian origin.
For your interest.
Allan from down under.
I went back and looked at the Shed Fresh Ute at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/277154.html but I did not see a photo that included an ID tag etc. with the engine serial number. You may have posted that photo in a different spot or I may have missed it. If you have a chance would you please forward and/or post a photo or describe the tag the serial number is stamped into?
From some previous postings about the “fossil record” we know that Ford Canada continued to stamp the engine serial number on the ID tag well past when the USA stopped having the two numbers be the same. Also that they changed from the brass ID tag shown below to an aluminum ID tag. But I do not have a photo of the later tags and I do not know how later Ford of Canada continued to stamp the engine serial number onto a tag. From the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/128120.html?1267783186 we have samples of the Canadian ID tag with the engine number stamped into them through 1915-1916ish. But I do not know what they look like later. [It also lets you know that the Patent numbers are Canadian Patents and NOT USA patents on the Canadian Patent Plate ]. Any additional photos or information on what the later 1917 to 1927 Canadian Patent Plates looked like and when did that stop adding the engine serial number to them would be great. And if your 1922 has a tag in addition to the ID Patent Plate that has the engine serial number on it, please let us know that also.
Some additional USA engine serial number information – to summarize and add references to the information above:
We know that Ford USA stopped stamping the engine number on the Patent Plate around Oct 6, 1911 and the ID patent plate number no longer matched the engine number. Since the USA was only assembling cars at the Highland Park Plant at that time – we do not have the additional issue of when did the branch assembly plants switch over to that process.
Ref Bruce’s (RIP) On line Encyclopedia at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc11.htm
For USA cars as mentioned above the engine serial number and the number on the ID Patent Plate agreed until around Oct 6, 1911.
OCT 6, 1911 Acc. 509, Letter, Ford Archives
Motor and body numbers not to agree in the future.
[Note there is another discussion that explains why the term “body numbers” in this example really means the ID Patent Plate number. If anyone wants that relocated and link posted – please let me know and I will try to locate it again.]
And at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc25.htm
DEC 12, 1925 Acc. 94. Walter Fishleigh files, Ford Archives
"Motor number was first placed on frame side member R.H. on Dec. 12, 1925. Motor No. 12,861,044. Information obtained from Mr. Burns, Final Assy., Highland Park."
Note that would not necessarily have been implemented at all the branch plants on Dec 12, 1925. Additionally engines were shipped and some were assembled at branch plants. Therefore a car assembled at one of the branch plants might have a slightly earlier engine number but still have it stamped onto the frame. They could also likely have an engine number a little later than the 12,861,044 and the frame would not have been stamped if that assembly plant was later in adopting the procedure.
Note also the engine 12,861,044 that was first stamped on the frame rail Dec 12, 1925 is listed in the “daily log books of the engine assembly department” which is the primary source for engine numbers as being assembled Dec 5, 1925 at the River Rouge. It would have been shipped from the River Rouge to the Highland Park Plant. In this case it was approximately seven days between the assembly and stamping of the engine and the assembly and stamping of the car. Shipment times to other locations could have been longer.
Great information – thank you all for adding to our records.
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