No guns, No politics, Just a question

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: No guns, No politics, Just a question
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 06:43 pm:

I bought these gears at a friends garage sale for $20.00. Except for the black they look to be in real good shape. My question is this; why are they black. Is it because of Nitriding? Has anyone seen anything like this? I'd really like to use them if they'll work and save myself about $350.00.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 06:57 pm:

kinda reminds me of black oxide, i know they do that to drill bits to help retain oil???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve McClelland on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 07:19 pm:

Mike the Black ones are no good, you better let me give you $40.00 for them, because when that black stuff starts coming off it get's on everything. Wheew what a mess they make! better get'em boxed back up for me a.s.a.p. before it's too late...
;-) They look fine I'd say they are treated or they came out of a burned garage...?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 07:32 pm:

You might find that they are new, parts often had the black paint like stuff on them for storage to prevent rust, I have some new pinion gears the same.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 07:41 pm:

Mike,
You could always try filing a noncritical spot on them the make sure they are not annealed soft due to a fire. If they are painted, make sure that the back surface of the ring gear and the inside of the pinion are free of paint before use. You would not want a layer of paint on those surfaces.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 07:58 pm:

Doesn't the electolysis rust removal process leave things black like that?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 08:13 pm:

I've already done a test with a file and they're very hard. It looks like black oxide which is actually like a controlled rust or oxidation process that is sprayed with a rust inhibitor and will rust over a long time and in wet conditions and this really looks like a black oxide but I also know they do a nitride that I think is a titanium nitride on gears and any nitrided product I've ever seen was black. I don't feel it's from a fire because it doesn't easily rub off and it's a very consistent surface. And I don't know anyone who's ever been lucky enough to buy a box of parts and have a brand new set of gears in it. Now please don't throw rocks at me. I've told you guys in the past I'm not all that bright. But I went over and asked the guy I bought them from, if he knows what the deal was with them he doesn't remember seeing them before. I assured him I bought them from him and offered to give them back but he said no. He didn't have a use for them. I know, it's that kind of stupidity that's going to get me in trouble some day but...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 09:07 pm:

If they look new other than the black, I'd clean them up and use them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 09:23 pm:

Not that I'm suggesting they're from China, but a lot of our finished import steel products come from China with the black oxide. It's to prevent corrosion during the long sea journey.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 09:29 pm:

Is Ford stamped on them anywhere? If not they may older repos.
But that doesent mean they arent good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 09:33 pm:

I have found a NOS Ford marked 10 tooth pinion at a local swap meet with similar black coating. Do you have Ford markings on your gears, Mike?
My thinking is they're good and a Jelf class bargain :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 09:48 pm:

"Jelf class bargain" :-) The Dauntless Geezer is making a real name for himself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 09:56 pm:

Both gears have the ford stamped into them. I can see nothing on them anywhere that make them appear to have been used in anyway. Like my old Grandpa used to say; I may have fallen into a pile of crap and come out smellin' like a rose. I might have to look at the rest of the stuff in that box. Heck maybe there's a new '22 motor or the whole Roadster Pickup or, or that speedster I'd love to build but never will. Or shhhhh, maybe a brand new waterpump.

For sale: NOS waterpump. Oh wait a minute NOS don't quite work here. NAMS (New After Market Stock) waterpumps. Almost as good as the brand new used ones I was selling last week. Just like they used to make at the factory. $300.00 Phone BR549.

Yep!!!! We don't need no stinking New Old Stock waterpumps. In the famous words of Phil Robertson; "We're happy, happy!"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 10:14 pm:

Danial "Doc", At OTC we used to take a lot of the screws for our pullers and send them out to have them black oxided. Black oxide is a controlled corrosion process that, if I remember right, uses a hot acid bath with nitrates and other stuff in it to corrode the material and cause it to turn black. It's typically .0005" thick and your right, Matthew will help retain oil or as I said a rust inhibitor. And when they come in a tub from the supplier all covered with oil. You have to pull them out one at a time and you spend until the next shipment with your hands the same color as the puller screws. Nitrided product does the same thing. And that's today class in high cost metal coatings and case hardening. Can you believe anyone can be so pretentious.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 10:23 pm:

Hey thanks for the schooling, Mike. Interesting.

On another note, I have a couple sets of those gears left, I think, if someone needs one.

Trading stock?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 10:26 pm:

Mike,you aren't pretentious,just unique. Hang tight.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 10:29 pm:

well at any rate the coating, be it oxide or nitride, the gears look like they are in good shape and if theyre hard why not run them?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 12:09 am:

Matthew, Danial, do I detect a slight bit of sarcasm? I hope so because I was trying my damnedest to sound like I knew what I was talking about and you guys didn't. Hahahahaha! Oh shit, are you guys gun owners?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 12:13 am:

Unique? No one's ever called me unique. Should I be offended? I mean, you know, let down or angry or possibly scare?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 12:14 am:

You guys are just being friendly to see if you can get your hands on my gears.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 12:25 am:

Nope, no sarcasm from me.

But I bet my gears are better than yours!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 12:30 am:


┐Bombas de aqua? ┐Bombas de aqua? íNo necesitamos no bombas de aqua!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 12:59 am:

nope no sarcasm over here. I just think based on what all weve discussed, you should us

Si Si! No bombas de agua senior!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 01:32 am:

Steve, did you really write aqua? Que verguenza!

Even in italics: g q

La bomba de agua debe ser acompanado con Termostato.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 02:17 am:

Oh yeah, well I'll bet your Model T has a waterpump in it. And don't give me any crap about needing a water pump. Maybe a magneto or a distributor or e-timer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Dorholt - Mpls, MN on Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 04:14 pm:

Mike, I worked for a heat treating co for 30 years. If you say the gears are very hard using a file I would venture to guess that some sort of Nitriding has been done to them.I did alot of this stuff for guys on the side back in the day. Nitriding being so thin of a case would be hard to detect without a destructive type of test. Not sure what the specs Ford used for heat treating gears, perhaps some will know. Check out the like to be overwelmed with the subject of nitrocarburizing.
Dean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferritic_nitrocarburizing


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Dorholt - Mpls, MN on Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 04:15 pm:

If they are flat, I would use them


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 08:15 pm:

Ralph, that's what I get for taking Latin. Sometimes the ole noddle slips a cog, so to speak.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 09:04 pm:

Hey Dean, I remember doing a lot of polishing samples in order to look at microstructure and case depth. It was really interesting. We always sent any case work out. We did our own through hardening. In 1990 we put in what was then a state of the art facility with several furnaces. And with it came a brand new metallurgical lab. And with all this came a brand new metallurgist. And that was when we stopped learning anything about heat treating. I also remember hanging parts in a cyanide salt bath with carbon sticks and case hardening our v-vlocks and vises and can't twist clamps. All but the clamps are still around. It's a pretty interesting process. I remember at OTC we'd measure case depth and usually seeing around .015" and we'd check hardness using the 15N point and scale on the rockwell scale. Our through hardening was usually 4140 stock heat treated to a 40-48 rockwell C on the rockwell tester. Maybe what I should do is go find a shop around here with a rockwell tester.

I started taking the rearend out of the '26 sedan today. I spent more time putting it up on jackstands with a chunk of 4 inch channel iron across them for it to rest on than I'll have into unbolting the rearend and pulling it out. But the thing is I actually went out there and worked on the thing.


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