E-timer review

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: E-timer review
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 01:30 am:

E-timer review:

In my forty or so years of driving Model T's, I guess my time spent driving on coils and timer with a battery has pretty much been limited to the few times that I forgot to flip it over to “Mag”. As such, I wasn't strongly aware at how tedious a proposition driving on “Bat” is, especially on six volts. Once you advance the timer enough to overcome the high-speed lag as the coils build current, low speed operation (such as starting from a stop) suffers, if you don't manipulate the spark lever to retard the spark timing. I've mostly driven T's with good timers and magnetos. I have driven some with distributors, and they don't suffer the same fixed-time lag the coils on battery do, even if they have manual advance.

I purchased an E-timer primarily to test it against what I thought was an optimized magneto setup (which I will describe later) on my Montana 500 car. I was curious about two things, mostly.
1.How did the stock setup performance compare to the E-timer?
2.What is the ultimate timing for high-speed (50 plus MPH) T operation?

Installation of the E-timer was quite easy and straight forward. After I had installed the E-timer and driven it a bit, I developed a miss. It turned out a coil developed an open. To get home I wedged the points shut on a spare coil. The E-timer comes with four fuses to use as shunts as a safety feature. In addition to this, I also fused the primary, so there is little danger in using a non-fused coil. The entire time I tested the E-timer, no fuses were blown.

The E-timer operates in two modes, which can be accessed by removing certain coils and turning the ignition switch on and off. My initial testing was done in “manual” mode. In this mode the timing acts as it would if you were driving with coils and a timer on battery. For me it was no fun. Too much work to constantly manipulate the spark lever. I then drove my T extensively in “automatic” mode. In “automatic” mode the spark is retarded at slow speed and then it automatically advances with speed to hopefully match or perhaps better the timing of a T with stock magneto and timer. When you first start the car the E-timer has no frame of reference to “know” how much to retard the timing. After it has run for a certain number of revolutions, it “learns” how much to retard the spark and does so. There is a lag of several seconds while it does this. As such, you must retard the lever when starting the car, then advance the lever normally and then wait a few seconds for the timing to retard. As I found out, not waiting for the timing to retard can be an issue. I was parked on a slight incline on the shoulder of the road. I started the T, advanced the spark and jammed in on the low pedal and the T stalled. I did this several times before I realized that I wasn't waiting long enough for the timing to retard. With the timing too far advanced, the engine would stall with the start-up load. This could be a problem if your car died in the middle of an intersection and you sat and waited for the timing to retard before you could take off. In the middle of an intersection with a stalled motor, seconds seem like hours. Please don't ask me how I know this!

It turns out that the best timing, at least for my T, is exactly the same as I am getting with the stock system. This is based on the “best” speed that I could attain with the E-timer. A note on setting timing on the E-timer: At high speeds, a little bit goes a long way. With the stock system on “mag” several degrees of timer rotation results in very little change of timing. The so called “sweet spot” is several degrees wide and as long as you have the timer in that area, you have accurate timing. With the E-timer, this is not so. Every degree of timer rotation gives two degrees of timing difference at the crank. It is a bit touchy to get it exactly right at high speeds (say 50 plus MPH).

The final thing I did was to do an “A-B” comparison of the E-timer and my “stock” system. My “stock” system is a well timed Anderson style timer with four matched (new) Bittner coils. The Bittner coils are not only matched in regard to impedance, but they have a higher Q-factor than most coils of the T-era. I have a “pet” course that is fairly flat that I test drive my T on. I have a good idea what my T will do under normal wind conditions. I drove my course with the E-timer and noted my highest top speed coming and going. There was a slight breeze which resulted in a 58 MPH “out” speed and 54 MPH “back” speed. I then immediately reinstalled the stock system and did another out and back with the exact same top speeds, 58 and 54 MPH.

My conclusion is that the E-timer perfectly does everything it claims to do. For a T with a non-functioning magneto, it is a great option for an original looking, well functioning system. I would recommend in that circumstance. For a properly set-up T with a magneto, I see no advantage.

Tom Carnegie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 05:34 am:

Hmmmmmm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 06:46 am:

Tom,

Your input is similar to that of several other long time T owners who have tested the E timer against a properly installed and adjusted stock system. The comment from each of them after all the dust has settled has been something like "Wow, all that trouble and $435 for a timer that doesn't help anything".

I really have to laugh when someone reports that their T starts much easier when using an e Timer. If your T is hard to start it means that there is something basic that is out of adjustment. What ever that problem might be, you don't need a $435 timer to fix it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 06:52 am:

Tom:

Bittner manufactured coils ..... how would you rate the quality compared to a repotted, rebuilt Ford issue coil ?

Not going off-topic, I've measured secondary ohm readings lower and higher than Ford's range.

Your input appreciated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 08:28 am:

Tom:

Condensed version of results: E-Timer gives exact ignition results as a properly calibrated set of Ford coils running on magneto.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 09:21 am:

I really have to laugh when someone reports they see no advantage to using an E-Timer after reporting performance that is equal to the stock ignition system.

Obviously, such a conclusion completely ignores all the time, labor, expensive equipment and knowledge necessary to properly install and set up the stock ignition system to temporarily function equivalently to the E-Timer. I say temporarily because stock ignition system performance begins to decay from the moment operation commences since timer and coil point contacts begin to wear immediately and will again require time and labor for periodic maintenance to sustain equivalent E-Timer performance. Such a conclusion also conveniently ignores the fact the original ignition system has a useful lifetime that is only a fraction of the E-Timer and will eventually require replacement points and replacement timers along with all the painstaking effort to independently time each contact finger of the Anderson timer and properly set up the 4 coil points to temporarily restore performance equivalent to the E-Timer. This process may need to be repeated many times over the E-Timer’s useful lifetime which is yet to be determined but some E-Timers now have over 20,000 miles on them with zero maintenance and provide the same performance as the day installed.

There are many in the T community, including myself, who do value their time. Many have not made the rather significant investment in required tools and education necessary to set up the stock ignition system to the detail necessary to achieve optimal performance and do see great advantage in the no maintenance E-Timer.

Regarding top speed as a performance metric, top speed depends on engine horse power available to overcome wind load. Tom’s results, and conclusion, are not too surprising in that regard based on Tom Graham’s engine dyno test data; especially if the gear ratio used kept engine RPM well below 2000. There are other performance metrics many value more than top racing speed like engine acceleration and smoothness, especially at low to moderate speeds at which the E-Timer excels. It would be interesting to know how long each system took to reach top speed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 11:08 am:

Bob, I hesitate to post this information on this forum, as certain folks tend to eviscerate me any time I "talk technical" on electrical stuff. They call me names and say that I don't know what I'm talking about. This upsets me, so I avoid it, mostly. It wouldn't bother me so much except that they condemn in broad terms and won't point out any specific mistakes that I've made.

Anyway, here is a link to a coil article that I wrote for the Montana 500 newsletter.

http://antiqueautoranch.com/montana500/12no2/Volume%2012%20%20no%202web.pdf

Mike, I more or less agree with what you say. The E-timer is certainly an easier path to a well running system, but I think you overstate the unreliability and system degradation of the stock set up. As a practical matter, once the stock system has been optimized, it requires virtually no maintenance and will run perfectly well for thousands and thousands of miles. I drive my T every day and haven't touched the ignition system in over a year. Mike, I'm sorry if I've upset you with this review. I thought it was a positive review and completely honest. The E-timer is what it is and for what it is it is great.

My opinion for this is just that, MY opinion. For me setting up the stock system is no big deal. For others, this is obviously not the case. It sort of reminds me of a friend of mine who carved animals out of stumps with a chainsaw. He explained how easy it was to do. Well, it was easy for him, but I could no more carve a bear out of log than fly to the moon.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 12:53 pm:

I really have to laugh when someone tries to make out like the stock Model T ignition system is somehow unreliable and a major problem to keep functioning properly.

Obviously, such a conclusion flies in the face of many Model T Fords who's ignition system continues to work to this day with only routine maintenance. Let's see.....a new mag ring every hundred years or so. A magnet charging every hundred years or so. A timer lubing a couple of times a year. A timer replacement every 3-4 years. Assuming you start with a set of good new or rebuilt coils at a fraction of the cost of an E-Timer, you may have to have points every 6-8 years. I would not characterize that as excessive maintenance or lack of reliability.

Time will tell, but I've seen a lot of electronic devices fail in just a few short years that live in environments much more friendly than the front end of a T engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 02:16 pm:

Hal & Tom:

Both of you gentlemen are knowledgeable about coil re-building & proper calibration of coils.

How many of average Model T owners and drivers are ??

Not everyone who owns/drives a Model T has the knowledge or capability of proper maintenance of anything on the car.

My opinion is that the E-Timer,does in-fact, is a great help for those who fall into this category, and also for those who have a non-functional magneto, OR no magneto in their engines.... keeping the "look" as standard Ford issue, while enjoying the benefits of a great ignition.

Lets face it, there are those who for whatever reason will not pay for coil rebuilding.
Fact is, I have seen coils for sale at Hershey
that were for sale, and , to me, had questionable hardware orientation and questionable vibrator & cushion spring tensions..... just from a visual assessment. I bet if those coils were put on a HCCT, ECCT, or Strobo-Spark, the testers would prove me correct.

I re-build Ford standard coils. I appreciate the Ford system..... and I appreciate the E-Timer.
I am not soliciting for business and will not accept orders from anyone who mentions this post.

I've read the E-Timer info and appreciate the line topics that state what can go wrong with the Ford ignition. It just isn't coils, it's wiring, timer integrity, proper starting initial settings.

Coil re-building prices average $45 - $55 per coil, and there are some rebuilders who suggest having 5 coils done at the same time... just to have one on hand in case of a problem. Add a commutator $60 - and up, ... figure about $ 285 + or - ...... plus postage & handling.

Yes, the E-Timer is a bit more $$, but in my opinion the benefits outweigh the extra $$..... for those who want. Every person is entitled to their preferences, & I respect those choices even though not in agreement with mine.

Can't wait for the next post ...... you know from who.

Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 03:33 pm:

Tom,

I'm not upset with your review or conclusion that the E-Timer provided no advantage in top speed. I applaud your efforts in testing the E-Timer and think it was great you took the time to share your experience with the forum despite your unfortunate experience doing so. My comment was directed to those who interpreted your conclusion as there is absolutely no advantage to the E-Timer what so ever; to which I do take exception as my remarks reflect.

I don’t think I portrayed the stock ignition system as unreliable or overstated system degradation. Let’s see, the stock timer maintenance interval is every 200 miles for lubrication according to the Ford manual. Through timer cleaning is typically necessary every 500 to 1000 miles. Coil points will require replacement every 8000 to 10000 miles according to a well-respected Model T expert on the forum. Timer wear and replacement varies with timer type, quality and maintenance schedule. Replacement after 10,000 miles is not unusual based on experiences of others posted on the forum. So in the 20,000 maintenance free miles E-Timer miles I cited, one would reasonably expect to have oiled their stock timer 100 times, removed and thoroughly cleaned their stock timer 40 times, replaced their coil points at least once. The cost of parts and labor incurred over this same 20,000 mile interval can not simply be ignored.

The knowledge, skills and equipment you acquired and invested in over the past 40 years are not given sufficient recognition or value in my opinion. The stock ignition system is not free. Considering a new Anderson Timer costs $62.95 and 4 coil points cost $38.80 plus shipping one would reasonably expect to pay over $100 in parts alone. Now add in equipment cost of $400 to $1500 to properly set up those coils and time to learn how to use them or the cost to professionally rebuilding those coils and the cost of an easily installed, zero maintenance solution is a good value that many know and enjoy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 03:44 pm:

Bob,

Regardless of how many Model T owners are knowledgeable and competent at setting up their original system, I will help any of them if given the chance.

To say that the stock Model T ignition system is too complicated or unreliable or expensive to maintain is just plain false regardless of who is talking.

I don't own a hand cranked coil tester or anything else that is needed to set up coils or magnetos. I am a member of a local club that owns a hand cranked coil tester. I do have a pair of eyes and a feeler guage to set magneto gap. The feeler guage cost something like $5 at the auto part store, the eyes are priceless.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 07:54 pm:

Mike Kossor,
I have a question. Note that I'm not bashing the E-Timer and feel that it gives some folks another optional ignition system.

You wrote, "There are other performance metrics many value more than top racing speed like engine acceleration and smoothness, especially at low to moderate speeds at which the E-Timer excels. It would be interesting to know how long each system took to reach top speed."

In the dyno test at:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/Ignition_Dyno_Testing__1_-267231.pdf
there is essentially no difference in power output from 800 to 1600 rpm (20 to 40 mph) except for the 6V battery operation. Do you have something else that shows greater engine acceleration (power) in low to moderate speeds with the E-Timer?

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 09:08 pm:

Jim,

No, I don't have anything else to support this claim other than a 99% satisfaction rate among E-Timer owners with smoothness and acceleration as the most frequent comment.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 09:16 pm:

There are always going to be people that dont want to deal with things, no matter how simple it to fix it. there seems to be a mental block with the model T ignition system. when in all reality its pretty simple and easy to upkeep.

the fact that the e-timer offers no advantage over a functioning stock system shows you dont really need one.

and if your ignition isnt functioning properly you could replace all the components of the stock system for the price of the E-timer.

now if your holding out on fixing your magneto i can see where the E-timer would be handy, but seeing as the mag would be $130 and a weekend or two of work, buying a $435 timer just doesnt make much logical sense.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 09:29 pm:

To each his own, but to characterize a Model T ignition system as difficult to set up and maintain flies in the face of past experience. 15 million Model T's were made and the vast majority of them were maintained by their owners, darn few of which had a hand cranked coil tester. In the last 50 years, there are still about 200,000 of these cars on the road and the majority are maintained by their owners. I have had satisfactory performance on my Model T's since I got my first one in 1957. My basic coil testing tools consist of a screwdriver and my eyes and ears.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 09:51 pm:

I don't know how to rebuild coils or the mag coil ring, but there are plenty of others who do know to do them very well, so I just send them off and have them rebuilt. Then I forget about them for many thousands of miles. The rest of the system is easy. I have never run any other ignition system on my T's and I don't intend to, despite not knowing how to do those things. And I have never spent anywhere near $400 on an ignition system.

I know there are lots of Model T guys who feel the need for "upgrades" to all sorts of the original Model T systems, but my experience has been that the original ignition system as Henry and the boys designed it works very well.

I'm not bad-mouthing the E-Timer or any other alterations, just saying that I don't feel the need to change from the timer and coils to anything else.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 10:21 pm:

Tom Carnegie,

Please don't stop posting due to a couple of narrow or closed minded posters on this forum. Any one who can get as much out of a Model T as you do is someone I want to learn from. I thank you for your honest evaluation of the E-timer. When I started in the hobby 35 some odd years ago I knew that you could not run a Model T on anything other than a distributor and you could not give me a original coil. Thanks to this forum and posters like you I now enjoy running my T's with the mag and coils and you could not give me a distributor. I have enjoyed reading the E-timer posts and will not bad mouth them but it is not something I would buy. I respect honest feedback on topics with out the narrow minded personal preferences injected.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 10:27 pm:

Like Uncle Stan said, "The loudest boos come from the cheapest seats."

I've always run a disturbutor, and see no reason to change. The last thing I want is 16 slinging magnets next to a bunch of bobbins of wire deep in the bowels of the machine. One loose screw, and you get copper spaghetti.

Maintainability is important to me.

"but seeing as the mag would be $130 and a weekend or two of work, buying a $435 timer just doesnt make much logical sense."

Weekends of work into unfamiliar machinations is an invitation to do it over, at more expense. How much would the average guy have to spend on books, calipers, micrometers, tools, etc., to do a decent job? "While you're in there.." adds a whole dimension of cost and time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 11:04 pm:

pretty sure you need the Model T Manual. a 9/16, 5/8, and a 3/4 inch wrench and a feeler gauge.

Im running a distributor, it was cheaper than buying coils, mag, magnet, timer, wiring etc. my car had nothing original on it.

but slowly ive been collecting all the parts i need, and honestly that distributor has given me more trouble than any ignition system ive had, its some random chinese remake of bosch style ditributor that was used on euro only cars designed for 12 volt.

either way im excited to get the magneto and coils working in my car.

by they way how many people have had the magneto explode in there car? and how many times has that happened in the past 100 years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 11:22 pm:

Mike and Bob

Please continue to provide us with information regarding the E-timer. I find it a very interesting read and there is a slight chance I might purchase one for myself.

As they say in OZ, 'Pay no attention to that man living in Dallas'...He is a very poor wizard.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 11:24 pm:

Dave:

Any help you may need.... you may send me a private e-mail. Thanks .

Bob J.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Friday, December 28, 2012 - 11:25 pm:

www.modeltetimer.com

For detailed info. ..... from Mike Kossor's webpage


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 12:15 am:

Bob asked: "How many of average Model T owners and drivers are ?? (knowledgeable about coil re-building & proper calibration of coils.)"

I think that that is the wrong question. It should be: "How many Model T owners and drivers have access to the knowledge to properly rebuild and calibrate coils?"

In our local club the number is 100%.

Mike said:"I applaud your efforts in testing the E-Timer and think it was great you took the time to share your experience with the forum despite your unfortunate experience doing so."

I did not have an unfortunate experience. I would characterize my E-timer experience as a wonderful experience. The E-timer is a great product. I had zero significant issues that were the result of a problem with the E-timer during the entire time that I ran it. The coil problem was not the fault of the timer. The stalling on take-off is a necessary design compromise. The sensitive timing issue is largely insignificant.

He also said:"Jim,

No, I don't have anything else to support this claim other than a 99% satisfaction rate among E-Timer owners with smoothness and acceleration as the most frequent comment."

I think that the E-timer offers significantly better acceleration and smoothness over a T run on batteries and coils. I personally didn't notice any significant difference between the E-timer and magneto and coils in that regard. I wonder who is not satisfied with the E-timer? I certainly am.

Paul, Thanks for the encouragement. I do get encouragement publicly (this forum), privately (e-mail) and in person. That helps me to carry on. That, and the fact that I won't let bullies chase me away.

Matthew asked: "
by they way how many people have had the magneto explode in there car? and how many times has that happened in the past 100 years."

I know of a few.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 12:39 am:

Tom i think that sums it up quite nicely. you did a great comprehensive review on the e-timer and i believe you very non-biased about it.

I just get tired of people bashing the model T system. I dont think the E-timer is a bad product, on the contrary it sounds like it performs quite well. I just dont see it giving anyone an advantage over the stock system.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 12:52 am:

Tom-
Thank you for your review of the E-timer. It sounds like a great option if your magneto is dead.

How do you compare the new Bitner coils to properly rebuilt Ford coils?

:^ )

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 02:18 am:

Keith, in my opinion the Bittner coils are superior on a number of levels. Did you read my article referenced earlier in this thread?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 02:46 am:

Tom,

I was referring to the unfortunate experience you encountered posting to the forum which causes you hesitation, not with using the E-Timer.

Matthew,

I don't think I have ever bashed the stock ignition system or anyone who enjoys using it. On the contrary, I have acknowledged its elegance and commended those who choose to use it on multiple occasions. I don't consider stating it is a consumable system which does require periodic maintenance and eventual replacement of warn parts bashing. The frequency of maintenance and replacement I cited came from searching the forum to see what others have experienced.

I also see that my efforts in explaining the advantage of the E-Timer is a waste of time to folks who consider their time worthless.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 03:04 am:

Thank you Mike, that makes sense now.

Some folks don't consider working on T's a waste of time. For many people (I know a lot), it is considered fun. That is one reason that your "time is worthless" argument won't get much traction.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warwick Landy on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 06:56 am:

Tom-
Thankyou for your personal observations and assesment of your E Timer experience. Do you have another T that you can leave the E timer on and log the miles and see how many it racks up before you have to perform any kind of ignition system maintenance. Your testing would be a unique test as you obviously build them to run hard and fast. It seems that an attractive feature to those that drive many miles a year such as Gene and Dean, is that there is a decrease in maintenance/component failures. I will continue to run my E timer on my non functioning magneto car and see how many miles I get from it before I think it requires any attention.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Yoder on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 01:50 pm:

Tom,
Thanks fore your post.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 02:01 pm:

Warwick, I do have T's that I could put the E-timer on, but not one that would accumulate any significant miles. The only T's that I have that get thousands of miles a year, rather than hundreds or dozens are my daily driver and my current Montana 500 car. For various reasons I would rather not run the E-timer on either one of those cars.

A couple of posts above I said: "For many people (I know a lot), it is considered fun."

I would like to rephrase that as it could be taken wrong.

For many people (I know quite a few), it is considered fun.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 02:36 pm:

Tom Carnegie,

Thank you for your post.

Please ignore those of us who call you names and say you do not know what you are talking about!

I always enjoy your input and look forward to your posts.

I hope you have a great 2013 and continue to post on this forum in the future.

Arnie from Chicagoland


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 02:59 pm:

Probably the most important thing I've learned from you, Tom, is to remove and store the cooling fan for to maybe use in a parade someday.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 02:59 pm:

Tom,

My communication skills must really suck for you to interpret my comment as you did. I'll try to clarify.

I don't think folks who work on Model T's are wasting their time. Folks who do not value their time cannot see the advantage of a product that saves them time to do other things.

I enjoy working on my Model T and find it fun, but, I also enjoy driving my Model T so I do see an advantage of using the E-Timer. I will concede that folks who prefer working on their car rather than driving it will have difficulty understanding the advantages of the E-Timer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 04:18 pm:

Mike, your communication skills are fine. I think my reading and comprehension skills suck.

I do think that your argument, however rephrased is still specious. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 05:03 pm:

I have difficulty understanding how something that costs $435 and doesn't make my car run any better is going to be advantageous to anyone except the seller. I can't imagine installing something that would intentionally give up the ability of the car to operate on magneto, and require a battery / charging system of some kind.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 05:29 pm:

My theory on this subject is that electricity scares some people to the point that they refuse to understand it. I knew a guy, centuries ago, that could re-build an engine or trans with one hand tied behind his back but give him a (Chrysler ?) distributor with dual points in it and he'd hand it off to another guy who would actually take it into the back room to set the points. Like it was something mysterious or special. If any of my T's had a distributor I'd run it. I know the system. All my T's has coils. I learned the system and how to re-build them. Then I luckily met a guy, who runs a E-Timer by the way, who set up my coils with an HCCT for the price of a good meal. It took years for me to be convinced about the HCCT. I too used a buzz box and was convinced that if they buzz their OK. Their not. Coils or a distributor both work. And they work well IF you know the systems and how to maintain them. The distributor guy who constantly breaks down with ignition failure does not know the system. The E-Timer works too but it's an owner's decision to get one over the 2 main (or acceptable if you prefer) ignition system choices out there. You can run a T with out a mag and without an E-Timer with coils or distributor. Strictly owner's choice. To go from coils to dist. (or the other way) looking for a major improvement is nonsense and if you find it something was wrong with the system you took out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 06:22 pm:

I have difficulty understanding how an intellegent man, given the opportunity, without any monetary obligation to do so, rejects the offer to Beta-test the E-Timer.......... and consistently gives negative opinions on the workings of the E-Timer without EVER had the experience of the E-Timer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 06:29 pm:

Bob

Amen to that!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 07:30 pm:

Say he did test it, Bob, and didn't give it a raving review saying it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, would you have regarded his review with any respect? You certainly didn't give me that consideration.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 11:21 pm:

I think the e-timer fits into a long tradition "better ideas" to improve the Model T. Funny how no one has a severe reaction to period accessories which attempted to do the same thing.

Bottom line, I think it's great there's still people out there willing to ENGINEER and make something that came out of their head. Gives me hope that this is still a living hobby, not just a reliving of the past.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 11:34 pm:

yes because water pumps are such well accepted items.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 11:46 pm:

Aftermarket items deserve their place in the sun, too. The T has been the most accessorized car in history.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 11:48 pm:

In the past, there have been several e-timer comments that had to do with the fact that only time would tell if the e-timer would be affected by "the elements", i.e. water, winter slush, etc.

There was an accessory offered by at least one company back in the Model "T" era that I believe called it a "timer elevator". The idea was to get the timer up out of a lot of the splash and such. Sort of made the combination look more like a distributor. My question is, would this work with an e-timer and if so, would it be a good idea? Seems to me, it would not only raise the e-timer up to a somewhat drier position, but it would also make it easier to change back and forth (for beta-testing for example) between e-timer and conventional timer. Just wondering if anybody had any thoughts in this regard, especially Mike Kossor,.....???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart - SoCal on Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 11:59 pm:

And carburetors like a Stromberg OF should obviously be considered heresy. A properly tuned Model T doesn't need a separate idle circuit and don't get me started on that "economiser" thingy. Since HF carbs are available for cheap and even a freshly restored HF is half the cost of a restored Stromberg OF, I don't see how any intelligent man could choose to purchase one of these new-fangled aftermarket carbs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 12:03 am:

Good one, Eric. I hope to meet you at the HME tomorrow. I'll look for your white brass T.

I'll be with Gene Carrothers in his '12 Torpedo, or Dan Haynes in his '15 Stude.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart - SoCal on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 12:03 am:

Hi Harold,

There isn't any evidence that the stock position creates any issues for the e-timer. So your suggestion might have to wait until an e-timer fails due to adverse conditions.

Eric


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 12:09 am:

except theres proof that an OF actually does improve the cars performance over what an NH can do.

an E-timer is essentialy a $435 holley NH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 12:20 am:

Matthew:

What experience have you with the E-Timer ? Facts please. Thank you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 12:22 am:

RD Ricks:

Looking forward to tomorrows pictures being posted here of the HME. Have a great time, be safe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 12:23 am:

Ooops.... OT post. Sorry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 12:26 am:

Bob-

Can you provide a dyno test that proves the E-timer makes more power than the stock system? facts please. Thank you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 12:34 am:

Matthew:

Read a page from the website:

http://www.modeltetimer.com/Performance_News.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 12:55 am:

Im rather puzzled by the dyno test on the E-timer website, it shows Rpm range of 1900-3500 which well above the average operating range of the model T

whereas the test on MTFCA website shows an rpm range of 800-2000?

not to mention that both tests are rather different in their results, I will give credit to the E-timer that it shows a gain of 1hp at rpms above 1800 or so. although the coils have the advantage of higher low end torque.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 01:03 am:

The range you question is the dyno wheel rpm's, not the engine rpm's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart - SoCal on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 01:09 am:

Hi Matthew,

It's my understanding that a Stromberg OF will reduce your top speed compared to an HF. Obviously an inferior product to the stock carb.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bamford, Edmonton AB on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 01:14 am:

Just read the E-timer website... very informative, and I can certainly see the appeal to those with a non-functioning magneto.

Just curious, whose hand is that in the photo at the "messy timer maintenance" link on http://www.modeltetimer.com/ ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 01:14 am:

yep just noticed the "At the wheels" comment

although the two reports are quite contradictory to each other, whereas the the test "at the flywheel" shows that the E-timer is right with the new day until 1800rpm where the e timer gains 1hp,

and at the wheel test shows that the e timer beats the new day until it reaches top end.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 09:50 am:

Wow that's real nice. Chris, thanks for calling attention to that picture stolen from me.

Apparently the E Timer seller was too lazy to take a picture and decided it was OK to steal a picture from this forum of me cleaning a Ford roller timer after 1000 miles of use.

Obviously they never have seen a Ford roller timer in person and could not take a picture of their own for use in their advertising. Pitiful.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 10:57 am:

Gee Royce, aren't pictures or postings "public domain" on the web,,,,, unless they're copyrighted ?

Guess a picture of a greasy, messy commutator just popped up on the search engine.

Where's your copyright info ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 11:26 am:

Probably no laws broken, but still...... Pretty bad to 'borrow' someone else's picture where they were trying to help folks out with their Model T, showing just how trouble free the roller timer can be, by using grease once or twice a year, instead of oiling every time you turn around, then use that picture in their advertising to try to make it look like it's such a PITA to maintain.

Let the E-Timer stand on its own merit and quit trying to make the original system look bad in order to promote the E-Timer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 11:35 am:

Hal: What's the issue ? It is what it is.

Greasy & messy . Period .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 11:36 am:

^^^^^^THANK YOU!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 11:43 am:

Yeah Bob. I bet there are LOTS of people lining up to spend $435 (or whatever it is) to keep from getting their hands greasy once a year. Hell, combine it with packing your wheel bearings. Gotta do that every so often anyway. You'll only have to wash your hands once that way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 11:54 am:

next product, E-bearings!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 11:57 am:

Actually if any photo was used in a commercial ad with out clearly being in the public domain and without the owners permission, laws were broken. Every photo taken is automatically copyrighted when taken, no matter if it is marked as copyright or not.

Posting photos on this forum does not strip the photo owner of their copyright rights.

A bunch of info can be found on line. This one is from the top dog:
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 12:06 pm:

Jim: If that's the case, EVERY picture downloaded from the internet should be deleted from EVERY computer, I-Phone, laptop, for copyright infringement,. Where will it end ????????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 12:25 pm:

Royce

Quit crying and go wash your hands. Dinner is almost ready.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul wilcox on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 12:37 pm:

i find it interesting that the same people that chastise an e-timer that is not noticeable do not chastise the people that put a starter on a brass era t which is noticeable


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 01:09 pm:

Bob,

You sir are an ass.

I am not claiming that any laws were broken other than the laws of decency. I don't support or endorse the E timer and I don't think it is fair of the company to rip off my pictures for their gain.

I treat everyone with the respect they are due, and would never steal someone else's property for financial gain.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 01:22 pm:

Royce:

And you, sir, stand on your merits that everyone is familiar. Don't get a nosebleed.

Happy New Year to you and your family.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 02:30 pm:

Royce,

Are you referring to the same laws of decency that say it is wrong to spread false, misleading or unsubstantiated claims about a product based on conjecture with the sole purpose to discourage interest in or sales of the product? If so, there are laws that prohibit that sort of behavior but that still does not deter some despicable individuals from doing so.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 02:36 pm:

Mike,

Show me anything I have ever said about your product that is not absolutely factual.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 03:16 pm:

Royce,

I made no reference to you as engaging in such reprehensible behavior. One does have to wonder why you reacted the way you did in the absence of any specifics.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 06:10 pm:

Mike,

Please remove the image from your web site within a reasonable period of time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke Dahlinger on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 07:19 pm:

Been following this thread the past couple days and here's my observations-

In the case of Royce's photo being used without his permission, that is in fact neither ethical or legal as he is the owner of that photo. I went through a similar thing last month.

The time I have been on this forum, I have never seen such grandstanding of a single product until this E-timer deal came about. Nor one as controversial. Makes for interesting reading.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 08:42 pm:

Royce,

As per your request, I searched the forum and did find 15 examples which could be construed as false, misleading or unsubstantiated claims about the E-Timer. I believe there may be more but ran out of time. I tried to classify each in my opinion. This does help explain your reaction to my previous comment.

1----------------------------------------------------------------------
By Royce Peterson on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 09:37 pm:
It seems to solve a problem that exists only in the mind of the designer. $400 to make my magneto inoperative? Not a good deal.
2----------------------------------------------------------------------
By Royce Peterson on Saturday, October 23, 2010 - 12:26 pm:
I won't have any experience with an E-Timer on my cars. They disable the magneto. Bad idea.
3----------------------------------------------------------------------
By Royce Peterson on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 10:13 am:
I don't like the idea of electronics and also don't like the fact that the magneto doesent work any more with the E Timer.

**************************************************
False and Misleading Claims: The E-Timer does not make the magneto inoperative. The magneto remains 100% operable to run lights, a horn or charge a battery.
**************************************************

4----------------------------------------------------------------------
By Royce Peterson on Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 01:52 pm:
I see a Master Vibrator as a much cheaper and more dependable alternative than the E-Timer.
5----------------------------------------------------------------------
By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 06:42 am:

I am being objective and factual. The E timer is a product that does not solve any problem, yet hurts reliability.
6----------------------------------------------------------------------
By Royce Peterson on Sunday, January 08, 2012 - 06:42 pm:
A Truefire or any other aftermarket setup will not add one iota of reliability or performance improvement. The E time…..

**************************************************
Unsubstantiated claims: No statistical data or factual evidence provided; shear conjecture.
**************************************************

7----------------------------------------------------------------------
By Royce Peterson on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 06:46 pm:
The E Timer is useless without a charged battery.
**************************************************
Misleading Claim based on conjecture: The E-Timer operates much more efficiently than the stock ignition system. It does not require a fully charged battery to run an engine. This was demonstrated this past summer by operating a car for 1 hour using a tiny 9V transistor battery.
**************************************************

8----------------------------------------------------------------------
By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, April 19, 2012 - 09:44 pm:
I would not pay $450 for a E-timer. That's absurd.
9----------------------------------------------------------------------
By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 06:42 am:
Now they sell for $450!
10----------------------------------------------------------------------
By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 10:47 am:
The E timer is just an electronic timer, and a frightfully expensive one at $450 plus shipping.
11----------------------------------------------------------------------
By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 12:22 pm:
The list price is $450, so if Dan has found a different price somewhere it would be helpful so that in the future I could accurately state the going rate.

**************************************************
False Claims: The E-Timer retails for $399.95 with FS timer core. An core charge of $25 is only required if no FS core is provided. A flat $10 shipping charge apples to the lower 48 states. This information is readily available on the E-Timer website to anyone
**************************************************

12----------------------------------------------------------------------
By Royce Peterson on Sunday, December 05, 2010 - 09:28 am:
If you leave the key on with the engine not running, there won't be any coil buzzing. If you follow the E-Timer directions the coil points will be shorted, so no buzzing, so you will not know the key is on.
**************************************************
False Claim: Coil points still vibrate and buzz using the E-Timer similar to stock operation. This Functionality was published in The Vintage Ford article, Model T Times article and on the E-Timer website available to anyone taking the initiative to read.
**************************************************

13----------------------------------------------------------------------
By Royce Peterson on Sunday, December 05, 2010 - 09:28 am:
It should be able to melt the tar and destroy the primary winding in about 30 seconds, maybe less.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**************************************************
False Claim: The E-Timer operates significantly more efficiently than the stock ignition system it replaces. Only the first spark, responsible for combustion, fires with the full coil current. All subsequent sparks fire at significantly reduced coil current preventing coil overheating in the event of prolonged operation. This Functionality was published in The Vintage Ford article, Model T Times article and on the E-Timer website available to anyone taking the initiative to check.
**************************************************

14----------------------------------------------------------------------
By Royce Peterson on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 02:06 pm:
If a guy has an E Timer or a distributor or a True Fire he or she needs to carry a spare set of parts so I (or anyone for that matter) can help them get going when they break down. All those things inevitably fail and then we have to get the flat bed because no one carries spares for these oddball one of a kind ignition systems, they are too expensive.
**************************************************
False and Misleading Claim: The E-Timer requires no modification to the car or wiring. In the unlikely event an E-Timer fails on tour, the corrective action is nearly identical to a stock timer failure. Replace the failed timer with a known good stock timer and verify timing. The only minor detail different is the need to remove the fuse jumpers from the coil points. No need for a flat bed.
**************************************************



15----------------------------------------------------------------------
By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 06:42 am:

I was offered an E Timer at full list price.
**************************************************
Blatant Lie: I personally offered Royce a loaner E-Timer free of charge or obligation so he could gain firsthand knowledge of it and how it actually performs before spewing more BS about it on the forum. Original E-mail available for corroboration if necessary.
**************************************************


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 10:10 pm:

Question regarding #14:

Don't you have to make an adjustment to the point setting to get them to buzz (Not that they HAVE to buzz for the E-Timer to operate correctly, but if you want to hear them buzz...)? If so, wouldn't getting it to run properly again, especially on magneto after swapping back to a regular timer, require adjustment on a HCCT, Strobospark, or dare I say, ECCT.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Seager on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 10:13 pm:

Good on you Mike. I wish more people would stand up to Royces BS. He rarely has anything good to say and is condescending to anyone that disagrees with him. I frankly am tired of hearing it. I wish he would dry up and go away so we could have some topics on this forum and share info what ever it might be without all the BS. I rarely post because of this BS. I am beginning to think that it would better if it was like the Aviation forums that i am on. If it is not civil it gets deleted. I am guessing half the posts by some on here would be history. Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 11:04 pm:

I second what micheal said, THANK YOU. I too am sick of people like Royce and the BS. Maybe his new years resolution will be to get real or get lost!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 11:10 pm:

Mike

You and Rob are providing a ton of POSITIVE information to all of us.

We thank you for that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 11:28 pm:

Hey guys - what I said in each of those posts was true and honest. Not one word of it can be construed as misleading in any way.

Mike, again please stop using my images without permission.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 11:38 pm:

Royce,

I mistakenly thought photos published on a public forum could be used freely elsewhere. I acknowledge my mistake, offer my sincere apology and will take immediate corrective action.

We all make mistakes Royce. Hopefully we can acknowledge them, correct them and learn from them so we don't repeat them. I sure hope you embrace the same philosophy Royce.

Happy New Year


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 11:43 pm:

Well Royce,
I think you would be fighting a losing battle with the photo, photo is on a public forum and yes it would be considerate to ask for your permission but to breach any privacy, you would need to be "Identifiable" by law, your hand just wouldn't cut the mustard on that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Sunday, December 30, 2012 - 11:45 pm:

So much for embracing my philosophy.......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 12:33 am:

Kerry,
Your logic does not hold water. Copyrighted works are posted and displayed in public places all the time and that act does not remove the owners rights. Think of public buildings, public parks, public art galleries and many others.

The bottom line is, "If you use a copyrighted work without authorization, the owner may be entitled to bring an infringement action against you." From the copyright office FAQ's linked above.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Seager on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 12:46 am:

Hey guys - what I said in each of those posts was true and honest. Not one word of it can be construed as misleading in any way.

Sorry Royce you post BS all the time as it were the Gospel truth. Most of us just ignore it as we are used to you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 12:57 am:

Jim,
I don't know about your part of the world but in order to breach copyrights in Australia, it first needs to be registered as such, otherwise it's fair game to use as long as you don't break any privacy laws.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Sanders-Auburn Al on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 01:05 am:

You are correct Jim, when a photographic image is created it is immediately copyright protected by the photographer without registration. These copyright protections were brought about by a lawsuit against Eastman Kodak by the Professional Photographers of America many years ago for copying photographers proofs. If you don't believe it, take a professional looking photo to Walmart (even from fifty years ago) and try to have it copied.
Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 01:06 am:

The image in question has been removed from the website. Now lets all just relax and wait for the nice men in the white suits to take over from here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 01:13 am:

Bob

I hate to tell you, but you can take any photo you want to Walgreens and they will copy it. Maybe not every store, but a lot will. They just look the other way and tell you they didn't know it was a professional picture. I know because I use to work there.

I'm sure other places will do the same.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 01:24 am:

Are we all going to take a class action against, say some thing like 'Google earth' for using images of people walking the streets, man, they didn't pay or ask me to list my private property?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Sanders-Auburn Al on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 01:28 am:

This might help....http://blog.kenkaminesky.com/photography-copyright-and-the-law/
Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 01:55 am:

Mike,
I see that Royce's photo from this thread:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/172835.html?1291041334
is still linked on your E-Timer web site.

No matter if Royce's photo is posted on your website server or linked on your website from another server, it is being used for a commercial purpose, out of context and you are gaining a benefit from the photo without his approval.

Don't take my word for it, read 17 USC section 106(5). The owner of the copyright in the photograph owns the exclusive right to display the photograph. An infringement does not require that a copy be made, just that it is displayed without permission.

The easy solution is to find another dirty timer photo that the owner is willing to let you use and take a photo yourself. I would take one myself and give it to you but I have no dirty timers. Anderson timers don't get that dirty.
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Sanders-Auburn Al on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 01:57 am:

Dave, I am sure that is true...however if the original photographer finds out...deep pockets beware. I do a significant amount of copy and restoration work and require my customers,for example, to get a release from Olin Mills to copy their work (used to be free but now they charge for the release). It mostly boils down to weather you are charging for the work or using the image for gain. In this case a simple "ask" would resolve the issue. Kerry, as for "Google Earth" your "property" is in public domain because it is visible from the street or satellite...now, if they come inside sue the SOB's. BTW, I just do not know what the controversy is regarding the E Timer, if you don't like it don't buy it...Geeeez.
Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 02:02 am:

I think Mike Kossor has developed a terrific product that certainly has a place in our hobby, and for the most part, I have enjoyed reading about the e-timer and beta testing and such, HOWEVER, I am tired of the fact that every time a thread about the e-timer is started, it seems to end up with a few folks more or less poking sticks at each other! Sheeesssssh! Enough already!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 02:07 am:

Bob Sanders - I type too slow! Valuable information from you and Jim Thode for sure, but your last line kinda' says what I was trying to say,.....thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 02:45 am:

Jim, Bob,

Thanks for the insight about the use of images. With the matter promptly addressed, would either of you care to share your legal and ethical views about spewing false, misleading or unsubstantiated claims about a product on a targeted public forum with the sole purpose to discourage interest in or sales of the product?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 03:24 am:

I saw the photo, it could be anyones hand or arm or model t. Why in the world would someone post a picture on a world wide web site than be upset when someone else uses it as a reference?? I think this has had little to do with the e-timer or some pathetic photo and more to do with someone upset as they are called out for the fool they have become.

As far as the e-timer never owned one or have ever any attachment to the product. But have come to respect the man behind it for standing up for it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 09:50 am:

The court of public opinion and the court 'at law' are in fact two different things as we often find out...

Some folks like to cherry-pick statutes to make a case, but don't realize that ALL the statutes need to be weighed in concert on each case...

I'd strongly suggest that for the good of the forum and for the best for both that the two individuals stop this back and forth. Mr. Kossor has said he erred and will change his reference photo..even 'at law' it is case closed when he does so...no 'foul' has been created as the 'at law' part allows him to correct on notification.

With all due respect to those who believe they help the situation and advise forward on either side of the running dialogue..you are just making it worse because 'at law' you are in fact cherry-picking.

I've done Intellectual Property management for the last 25 years and it is amazing how many 'half-truths' or 'single statute lines' fall by the wayside 'at law' but only after the cannon barrage begins...

Put the big boy pants on...kiss and make up! Royce will never like the E-timer and he has stated so repeatedly. Think he will ever change his mind? Mike K. may have the 'bee's knee's' for some as a solution and his countless hours of work and dedication to making something like this can be applauded and respected. Lobbing grenades back and forth really has no place here does it?

For those including Royce who may want to take advantage of but one line of copyright law, the 'owned' without stating so...be aware that copyright law is a federal jurisdiction and a federal judge MUST consider 1st amendment rights v. copyright statute BEFORE rendering any decision...and all would be absolutely amazed how that works out in reality. Commercial use or not.

So for those that want 'ownership' of a post...do yourself a favor if you want to put meat-on-the-bone as to 'ownership' and do not just copy Jim Thode words literally...simply do as Jim Thode does with his own work that he posts and what I do on many of my posts. Add the little cirlce 'c' with your name or company because 'at law' this IS akin to 'user beware', still with no guarantees 'at law' later...just changes the pecking order by a whole lot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 10:03 am:

How comes I've never seen that little cirlce c on a keyboard, or noticed it on any posts here?

Should I consider suing everybody who has used the word I coined, Thermobarf?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 10:10 am:

YOU are enjoying MY hobby wrong!

This argument has gotten silly... There is a place for the E-timer, a place for the stock ignition system, and a place for every other aftermarket accessory out there.

The E-timer in my opinion, is a great product for the "new" people to the hobby, those without a functioning magneto, those without a lot of time or ability to spend working on the car, or those who do not have or know anyone locally with the expertise to make the stock system function properly. If you don't fit in one of these categories, or you just prefer the original system, that's great for you. Just don't expect everyone to have the same knowledge, ability, energy, or passion for the original system as you.

I don't have one and don't plan on buying one (unless I find that the magneto doesn't work when I get my TT running), but I appreciate it for what it is... it's a well engineered "modern" ignition system that keeps the appearance and sound of the original system.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 11:02 am:

Similar "rumors" are floating around about Face Book in that they have rights to every photo posted on that site and can use them. I've yet to see it actually done or heard of any one complaining about their pics showing up any where. Mr. Kossor may have showed poor judgement in using that particular shot but he's said it's been addressed. As to the product itself: Look in Clymer's Wonderful Model T. The last pages are loaded with add-ons for the T and I'll bet alot of them didn't have 1/3 the testing the E-T has had. I really don't understand the vitriol. Buy it or don't period.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 11:11 am:

Ralph,

Chewbaca must have ate your key....

© © ©

Go blame him!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 11:34 am:

~ ! @ # $ % ^ & * ( ) _ +

I just can't find it on my top of the line wireless keyboard, George. Where is it hidden?

Chewbaca hasn't touched this keyboard yet. Right now she's on her perch, looking for the next helpless inanimate victim..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 11:51 am:

I am not trying to make a copywrite case. I just don't want my photos used to sell a product that I don't endorse.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bamford, Edmonton AB on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 12:04 pm:

Ralph: "Option G" on the Mac keyboard... ©©©©©©©©©


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 12:13 pm:

Just remember, In any given pissing contest the hardest thing to do is dot the "i's" :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 12:19 pm:

Ralph,
they ran out of keys...

in HTML you have to enter a code string...the backslash symbol,no space then char followed no space with {169}

in MS products its a little tougher...[start][all programs][accessories][system tools][character map]...and then [highlite click][select][copy] and paste from there on the final whatever you are working on...you'd think they would make it easier....haha. Welcome to the 21st centruy...it's a heck of a lot easier to do it once in an email to yourself with the circle 'c' and then just cut and paste from there when you need it. :-) There is a way to set up a hot-key script, but I ain't that bright. :-):-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bamford, Edmonton AB on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 01:11 pm:

"[start][all programs][accessories][system tools][character map]...and then [highlite click][select][copy] and paste from there on the final whatever you are working on..."

vs

"Option G"

I love my Mac.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 01:17 pm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_symbol#Digital_representation

Just bookmark the above Wikipedia site and copy and paste the
desired symbol from the top of the list in the R/H column. © © © © ©
Or most other symbols you need from the column such as © ® °
Don’t copy the brackets (unless you want them)
Works for me on my PC (Win 2003)

Regards
Art


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 01:29 pm:

©

Aw, that's easy, Art, thanks. I cut & pasted it onto a new notepad file.

Now I just have to remember the name of the file and where I put it...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 02:12 pm:

Every person has different point of view. In this E-Timer case, with a couple of exceptions, Royce's point of view are factually correct but not balanced. He points out what he sees as negative points and conveniently omits the positive points, he has every right to do that. Based on what I have seen most folks are able to read through all theses points of view and come to a reasonable conclusion based on their needs.

Just taking the points that Mike listed above, I can see both sides. As in:

* Royce said the E-T requires a charged battery. That is correct, a dead battery would not work. Mike is correct, FULLY charged battery would not be required.

* Cost cost of $450 that Royce stated may be correct for him. In my state the total cost would be, $400 (-0.05) + $25 timer core charge + $10 Shipping + $28.27 St sales tax = $463 No matter if out of state sellers collect the state sales tax of not, I am legally required to pay it. Some state residents would get by less then $450 and other would not. Both Royce and Mike are correct.

* Royce said the E-T disables the magneto. Assuming that the first and primary purpose of the magneto was to power the coils and create the ignition spark, then the E-T does disable the magneto. A driver cannot switch back and forth form the E-T to mag operation or run on only the mag without a battery as some can with the stock ignition system.

* Royce said that diver with an E-T would have to carry special spare parts. That may be partly true. To convert a E-T back to the original T system it is very likely the coil points will need adjusted, or cleaned or replaced and to do that a HCCT or Strobo-Spark or ECCT may be needed, or maybe not. Both Royce and Mike may be correct

* The melt the coil in 30 seconds and no buzzing points when the key is left on comments made by Royce do not to appear be accurate. Mike gets this one.

* Just by public advertizing for E-T's, everyone in the world (including Royce) has been offered an E-T at full list price. Royce did not say that he was not offered a loaner at no cost. Is that lying by omission??

Anyway, there are two sides to every story. In this case it is brazenly obvious that the E-T is not for Royce and there are others (probably most folks) that see it as another possible alternative ignition system that could be of value if the conditions are correct.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 02:18 pm:

Wow! What a thread! It has turned into a character map thread and before that an intellectual property rights thread (I think therefore I own!) But, back to subject, there are things said that might confuse someone.

Royce said:"I won't have any experience with an E-Timer on my cars. They disable the magneto."

Let's examine this: First off, my definition of "magneto" for this discussion is "the permanent magnet generator (alternator) inside of the T motor". You may ask. "How does putting an E-timer onto my car suddenly make the magneto not work?" A novice might assume that installing an E-timer somehow discharges the magnets or something like that and renders the magneto permanently or temporarily dysfunctional. Of course that is not true. So what was Royce saying? I think what he meant was that the magneto could no longer power the ignition system with the use of an E-timer. Maybe his definition of "magneto" is the entire system, not just the permanent magnet generator inside the motor. So, as an entire system, the magneto is disabled. However, in actuality, even this is not strictly true. It would be a simple matter (if one so desired) to rig up a rectifier, filter and regulator to allow operation of the E-timer from the magneto. So, all things considered, I think Mike is right here. Royce's statement is misleading and not true.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 02:32 pm:

If you have MS Word you can just left click on ‘Insert’ ‘Special Characters’
then ‘Copyright’ and click on ‘Insert’.
©
Alt + Ctrl + C may work, but it calls up my video control card settings instead.
I reset mine to Ctrl + Shift + ~ but seldom use it so end up forgetting it.
©
Just highlight the special character you want and use the ‘Shortcut Key’
to see what yours is set to or to reassign it to a new combination not in use.

Regards
Art


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 02:57 pm:

George, Chris, Ricks & Art: you guys are trying to put out a forest fire with a watering can!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 03:26 pm:

Smoke and mirrors Charlie - It's just a diversion - quick cut the fuse!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Seager on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 04:33 pm:

Jim why are you sticking up For Royce he is such an ass about everything. Your interpretation holds no water. He has done everything he could to bad mouth every ignition system except what he likes. I am surprised that Mike K has put up with his e timerbashing as long as he has. Royce feeds us his BS all the time. Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 05:55 pm:

Ya' know, I'm sitting here waiting for Dick Clark's ghost and one thing is bothering me. You're all entitled to your opinions of people but, if it was my picture, even if I liked the product and didn't have the pits to say anything about it here it would still bother me that the shot was used and I found out about it in the was Royce did.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 05:59 pm:

Did Mike even know it was Royce's picture when he used it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 07:59 pm:

It's not so much what people say, as it is HOW they say it. Kind of like the difference between disagreeing and being disagreeable.

Happy New Year everyone!!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roar Sand on Monday, December 31, 2012 - 08:35 pm:

Tom,
My thoughts have meandered in the same direction.
What about setting up a counter that counts every 16 pulses, and you may have digital tach. On a T!? I know I'm gonna get bashed for such a heretical thought.
Happy New Year to all!
Roar


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Tuesday, January 01, 2013 - 01:11 am:

Roar, Buzz Pound did that exact thing a few years ago.


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