Loaded up my new(used) Titan enclosed trailer, tandem axel (8'x 14', 2300 lbs) with my '26 Model T roadster (1500 lbs?) this morning (total weight 3800 lbs, tongue weight 300+ lbs, car in trailer engine first), got on the 210 Fwy in southern california. Less than a mile, approaching 40 miles per hour and it started to sway, getting worse with each sway. Before I could activate the manual trailer brakes (electric brakes on both axels), it jack-knifed, impacted the left-rear of my 4Runner with the left front of the trailer, and did a 180 in the middle of the freeway!. Luckily no one hurt, the T never left the straps, no other cars around, thought I was going to roll it but didn't. Why? I've pulled it empty from Arizona, no problem. Thought it would pull even better with some weight. Checked everything, got back on the freeway, less than 40mph, started swaying again but got it under control and got off the freeway. I'm afraid to pull it now. What am I doing wrong, or not doing right with the trailer? Thanks for any help,
Bob

Bob,
When its loaded is the trailer level or more wgt to the front making the 4runner squat?

Bob, The "fishtailing" your trailer is doing is caused by too much weight behind the trailer axles and towards the rear of the trailer. Move the Model T forward a bit until it stops. I've been trailing autos on trailers since I was a teenager and once loaded I always take a test drive down a deserted road, get the trailer up to around 45 mph, then move the steering wheel quickly to the right and left about 4-5 inches while looking in the rear view mirror. If the trailer does not snap back to center immediately and fishtails any at all I move the load forward a bit and test again. On my main trailer I have marks in the floor for my Model T and Model A as I load them in two different spots so the trailer trails properly....Michael P.

It sounds like too little tongue weight. It should be 10% of the trailer gvwr (example: trailer = 2000 lbs. car = 1500 lbs. total = 3500 lbs. tongue weight should be 350 lbs. You can figure this out by measureing hitch distance to the ground empty then have a few buddys that = what your tongue weight should be (350 in the example)stand on the back of the tow vehicle then measure the same distance you measured before, this is how much deflection the trailer should create if loaded corectly.

Also if you ever get into that sway again accelerate instead of brake to get out of it.

Michael-I've got the car forward engine first until the bumper's almost touching the front of the trailer, engine definitely ahead of the axels (only a 14' trailer).

Alan- I've got at least 300+ lbs on the tongue (my scale doesn't go past 300 lbs). Afterwards, when we checked the tongue weight, when I climbed on the back of the car (I'm 210+ lbs) the hitch didn't go down any further.

John- loaded, the trailer is level, but the ball only goes down a couple of inches when the trailer is let down on the car. Car rated for 5000#.

Thank you, Bob

maybe you should also look at a set of "levelriders" that fix to both the trailer and tow bar to keep both relatively level, as the name suggests .

Someone e-mailed me and suggested "sway bars". Anyone have experience with those? When I was standing beside the freeway waiting for the Highway Patrol to come, I noticed lots of cars with trailers at least the size of mine go by with no trouble and just regular hitches with no "levelers" or "sway bars". Should I be adding something?

Alan- the CHP officer also suggested I should have accelerated, hard to do as your life is passing before your eyes, will try next time, but trying not to get in that situation again.

Thank you all again for your help.
Bob

good luck, all of the above is true , but the easiest way is to load and get the weight over the front and not the back.

The trailer manufacturer might be able to give you some tips. Did you read the 4Runner manual. Also how are the tires on both vehicles (wear & pressure). Is the 4Runner hitch factory or dealer installed. Could that be a bit much for that SUV. Also how full was the Toyota. You could haul it with another vehicle and see if it is the loading.

When I wanted to rent a trailer or a tow bar to tow a vehicle with my Toyota, they said it was too small and I had to borrow a larger pickup. I now have a Ford 150 and an open trailer with two axles and brakes. The trailer brakes go on with the pickup brakes. I adjust them so that when I flip a switch to activate the trailer brakes only, The trailer just pulls hard but the wheels don't slide. You have to adjust it for the load, because with an empty trailer you use much less brake to slide the wheels. With that done, the center of the car is just forward of the axles of the trailer to give more weight on the hitch. So far no swaying of the trailer. Something is definately out of balance with your trailer and 4 runner and you need to correct it before you have a serious accident.

Norm

From a Safety standpoint:

The trailer should not have radial car tires and the tires should be kept firm with about 40 pounds of pressure. Although, a new radial trailer tire has been recently developed and tested. This tire is coming on new trailers now and does not have the squiggle problem that car radials do on a trailer.

The trailer should not be more than 40 percent of the tow vehicle weight.

The equalizer hitch puts the weight back on the front wheels of the tow vehicle, which also do most of the braking and all the steering. Too much weight on the trailer front equated to too little weight on the tow vehicle front wheels and will cause Bob's situation.

That situation usually occurs whe you are going down a hill or trying to slow down for a bridge.

The only way to recover from that trailer problem is to shift down and step on the gas, while using max trailer brakes, but no tow vehicle brakes.

Bob,

1. Something is wrong.

2. Don't pull the trailer until you figure it out. I.e. if it fishtails at 40 it won't get better on its on.

3. How much trailer pulling experience do you have? If not much -- let us know where you are and someone can stop by and help you solve it quickly.

4. Michael Pawelek is correct and I use his method for checking also only at a little slower speed initially -- if you do not have enough tongue weight -- it makes the trailer want to fishtail. That is normally the common cause and shifting the weight a little more forward will normally solve that -- it that was what the problem was caused by in the first place. Note -- if it tend to shimmy on the straight and level at 40 -- look out if you start down a hill as it will tend to shimmy even more. But you can also get too much tongue weight -- i.e. you don't want the the headlights shining into the top of the trees just because you hitched up the trailer (they may be a little higher than they normally shine -- but not pointing way up).

5. Low tire pressure can also causes the swaying.

6. Are the trailer wheels true -- i.e. do they wobble when you spin them and could that be inducing sway?

7. Is the trailer tongue, and the trailer hitch all snugged up -- or have any of the bolts or welds become lose and are allowing one or both to shift left and right?

8. Is the T moving inside the trailer?

9. Hitting the trailer brakes should straighten out a shimmy. Hitting the tow vehicle brakes or taking your foot off the gas tends to increase the shimmy.

10. If you aren't sure if it is the trailer or the tow vehicle -- go to U-haul and rent their car trailer -- put the T on it and go for a test drive. If it shimmys -- you are loading it wrong or the hitch/tow vehicle has a problem (remember low tire pressure in the tow vehicle, lose steering in the tow vehicle, lose bolts on the hitch, not enough tongue weight, etc.).

11. Are the trailer axles properly connected/anchored/alligned?

12. Your comment that you towed the trailer empty from Arizona without any problems leads me to believe you most likely don't have enough tongue weight. I.e. the other problems should have shown up with the empty trailer (except possibly the low tire pressure on the trailer). Tongue weight is sort of easy to check -- losen the trailer and see if you can pick up the tongue off the ball -- if you can easily do that -- you are very strong or you don't have enough tongue weight. Also be sure you have the correct size trailer ball for your hitch.

13. Yes, sway bars can help stabilize the trailer and tow vehicle, but for a T and trailer -- you probably don't need them.

Recommend you tell us where you are and give someone a contact number -- someone with some towing experience could probably drive out with their truck -- take a look, sort it out with you, give you some short driving tips, and get you going.

Hap 1915 Model T Touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Ford Runabout in SC

hmmm....an alternative to trilering is using a cube van! I actually used to haul my pre-war Crosley around in a cube rental van - the guys at customs always did a double take when asking what I had in teh back, and I said "MY CAR".

A closed trailor is one of the hardest to get the load right. 1: you can't see the tail of the car you are useing to tow with drop in hiegth. depending on the car you are towing with a 1 to 3 inch drop in the rear of the car should put the load about right but that requires someone on the outside watching. once you get it there you will know where your mark is on the inside. One thing that did not sound right was when you got on the bumper and the tounge did not drop anymore that would tell me that, one the car had droped to it limits with the weight of the t. or your shocks, or leaf springs are shot. my guess is you need to move the t back about 2 feet in the trailor

Everyone, thanks for the help. I'm in southern california, just east of LA. Yes, not much trailer experience.
1. The car is as far forward in the trailer as it will go, middle of the tandem axels about the back of the roadster rear window, engine far forward.

2. Trailer tires are Goodyear's Marathon trailer tires 225/75/R15, brand new, 50# pressure from the dealer.

3. Toyota 4Runner, 2006, 5000# towing weight, factory hitch, brand new.

4. Total weight 3800# (2300 trailer, 1500 T), tongue weight 300+ # (scale quits at 300).

5. Pulled a rental trailer (open) no problems. It seemed heavier, looked heavier than this enclosed trailer. Rental places in so. cal will no longer rent auto trailers to hitch onto your car. . . .you have to also rent their trucks (as in moving vans) to pull their auto trailers).

6. I drove it again this afternoon, starts to sway at about 40 mph, hitting the trailer brakes stops it, but it starts again when you let off the trailer brakes (you guys must tow your trailers faster than 40?).

7. Car not moving in the trailer (ratcheted dowm to tie-downs, 2 per axel). Even after the jack-knife, spinning 180, and smacking the front of the trailer against the side of the car, the T inside never budged, never got a scratch. . . .wish I could say the same for the 4Runner.

8. Trailer weight 3800 #, 4Runner weight 4045# unloaded (maybe thats the problem! altho it's rated to tow 5000#).

9. Maybe I do need an anti-sway bar or heavier car.

I'm still reading your responses for help. Thank you again for everything.

Bob (I may have damaged the Toyota, but at least my wife and the T are OK. . . .in that order, by the way!).

Thanks, Bob

One thing you might do, is have the alignment of the wheels on the trailer checked. Some trailers tow great, loaded or empty. Others are kind of weird when loaded. The latter, I believe, do not have the axles welded true to the trailer.
Whipping is a classic symptom of too little tongue weight, but 300# should be enough. There is a formula for what percentage of the total weight that the tongue weight should be.(I guess Alan already said this)
bob

You don't have enough tow car for the trailer. you don't want the trailer total weight over 40% of tow vehicle weight. The 1500 pounds of "T" overloaded your rig too much. Although I don't think its afactor in your case, a short wheelbase tow vehicle can also create a dangerous condition.
Take your toyo and EMPTY trailer to a set of scales. weigh the whole rig. unhitch and weigh toyota. Now add the 1500# of "T" into the equation and I think you will see the problem

Bill

Bob:

In all the years of towing trailers with all sizes and weights of tow vehicles, everytime I've had a sway problem like yours, it was one of two things. Either the tire pressure in the tow-vehicles rear wheels was to low or I had too much weight at the rear of the trailer. The tongue weight had very little to do with it as long as it was positive.

It is possible to have the correct tongue weight and still have to much weight behind the rear axle. The shorter the trailer the quicker this problem comes to light. The weight acts like a pendulem and multiplies with speed and turbulence. I call it the "tail wagging the dog".

I agree with Michael that the only way to correct your problem is to move the weight forward on the trailer. Given the fact that your car is already against the front wall of the trailer, the only other solution is to move the axles further back.

I pull an 18 foot tandem axle trailer and when I am hauling building materials no matter what the weight, I have to be very careful not to load too much behind the rear axle of the trailer or the "tail will wag the dog". It is a real balancing act sometimes.

I believe the Toyota has the physical ability to handle the total weight you are trying to tow. Could you post a side pic of your trailer. It sounds to me like the axles are set too far forward for the type of load you are carrying. Given what you are hauling in a 14 foot trailer, I would expect to see the center line of the rear axle within 3 feet of the back of the trailer.

Dave

Altho the 4Runner has the ability (hitch, engine, etc rated to 5000#) to pull the trailer, it's starting to sound like it doesn't have enough weight to "control" the trailer? I'll post a side picture of the trailer tomorrow showing the axel position and position of the car inside. I'm also wondering about the alignment of the wheels, axels? This is a "used" trailer and already had some damage to one side, altho again, it pulled fine empty. Again, I thank all of you for your help. Not just tonite, but for the other times you've helped. Sounds like I should have checked with you sooner. Thanks,

Bob-- anyone want to buy a couple of T's and a trailer? Don't think I'll offer to deliver this time *g*.

Bob,

Glad to hear no one was hurt.

-Jasper

You didn't mention the brand name of the trailer.

I believe that the trailer axle is too far forward. If it is a tandem axle both axles need to be moved aft. Was the trailer made for carrying a car, or is it a cargo trailer ?

There was a company in San Diego County that made beautiful trailers with fiberglass enclosures about 15 years ago, but they were 50-50 balanced when empty with no tongue weight at all.

They were difficult to load because most cars made the trailer tail heavy when they were positioned in the trailer. They were notorious for swaying, but they looked good.

Bob, Years ago before I bought my '18 open trailer I had a '14 foot to haul around my '31 four door sedan and to get it balanced properly the rear spare tire and the rear one foot of the Model A had to hang out past the back of the trailer. To see if yours needs more weight forward can you "borrow" some sacks of concrete or a similiar weight and temporarely place it on the floor of the trailer under the front bumper of the Model T for a short test drive?....Michael P.

Frank- it's a Titan trailer (Oklahoma City) made for cars. I didn't put the decals on. . .it was used for pulling a T before I got it, so it's got to be something wrong I'm doing. Thanks.

Michael- why were you moving yours backwards? I've got some 60# sacks of "dry-crete" I can try in the front. Thank you.

Jasper- thank you

Norm- thank you. With everything "forward" in the trailer, tires and tonque weight checked, and still having problemsI'm starting to think I don't have enough car for the weight of the trailer like you said. Can I call you for some advice when I get to San Diego?

Here's a picture of the trailer "before" the accident. Doesn't look quite that nice now. I'll take a picture this morning of the car in the trailer to show the distribution.

I have been towing lately with our Jeep Grand Cherokee due to the fact the Suburban was down and I sold the dually. What I found was to much toungue wgt cause it to sway. I had to position the T back further. The front wheels of the T were a foot or so in front of the front trailer axle. This was not a problem with the bigger towing vehicles but played a big part with the Jeep.

John

One thing not mentioned yet is wind. In high gusty winds, trailers and high profile vehicles should not be on the road. Was it windy the day of your accident?

Norm

Bob, My point was that every trailer design has to be loaded differently depending on the type of car being hauled....Michael P.

I would contact the trailer manufacturer.

There is something to what John says about too much tongue weight. Three hundred for a 4 wheel trailer seems a bit much just for a little Ford.(I have some ideas but should keep them to myself since I haven't actually experimented with them.) It is after all a four wheel trailer. The manufacturer should have an 800 number. I looked but only found big trailers.

I had a Land Cruiser, a great tower, but squirrely at higher speeds. I think its the big tires. Your new 4Runner with some damage is now your own. A little pricey for bodywork, but they will repair as good as new. I worked for Toyota in Japan doing body related stuff. The only hard thing is refinishing that prismatic directional pigmented paint. Have to find good experienced sprayers for that but LA should be no problem. Shoot me a picture of the 4Runner damage if you like.

Glad you and wife came out OK.

Talk to the trailer manufacturer, they deal with problems like yours all day long and might know something we missed.

Tow vehicles with solid rear axles are much safer than with independent rears that often do their own dance without warning.

Just from that pic, it already looks looks to me the wheels are to far foward. I have a 13.5" trailer and this is what the T looks like on it. I can tow this at 75 mph no problem. I also wonder the fact of yours being enclosed and short, that the wind is trying to push on the front wall and unload the tounge weight so to speak, forcing the light tounge weight condition---what i believe your problem is.

BTW, my trailer (homebuilt--not by me), has the wheels to far foward---i need alot of tounge weight. It will balance itself unloaded, without the need for a tounge jack. I plan to make the trailer longer anyway and will add to the front of it to correct the wheel position.

--chad

You do not have enough tow vechicle. If you can borrow a 1/2 ton or larger, I believe that the problem will go away. 4 runners are not very good for towing. Go weigh the 4runner, you will be suprised at the weight.

maybe helpful, A friend of mine was towing a trailer with a dodge mini-van and had all sorts of problems with swaying. It ended up that a front wheel drive pulling a trailer is a deadly mix. Does your 4-runner have front wheel drive in the 2 wheel drive mode

Your wheelbase is a little short to handle it. I had the same problem towing with a Ford Bronco. I ordered a set of sway controls and it solved all my problems. Email me and I can send you pictures of the set up. Jim Young Youngfd1@juno.com

Ijust bought a 16' tandem axle open trailor with electric brakes to haul the Model T. The axles are slightly behind center. I'm pulling it with a Chevy TrailBlazer. Last weekend I hauled about 2000 lbs of trim wood home from Arkansas with no problem at all. We got into some strong wind, heavy rain and hail in Illinois with no adverse effects. (I live in Indiana.) The Blazer did go down some when I attached the trailor, but on the road everything was basically straight lined. At one point on I-44, I was doing 65-70.
Mike

Here is an easy way to measure the tongue weight with your 300# scale. Put a plank under the tongue, with the tongue in the center, the scale under one end, and a block under the other end. Use a narrow or triangle shaped block under the end, and also between the scale and the plank, so the plank is free to pivot. Tongue weight will be double what the scale reads. The 10% tongue weight rule is applicable up to a point, but as trailers get heavier, that can often be reduced to 7% or even 5%. I carry about 450# on a 7000# trailer with excellent results.

Some other possibilities for swaying problems:
The relationship between the wheelbase and length of the tow vehicle, and axle position and length of the trailer has a big impact on the susceptibility of swaying. Tow vehicle and trailer each have a natural oscillation frequency. If they are the same, or multiples of each other, they will amplify each other's oscillations. If their oscillation frequencies differ significantly, they will dampen each other. I tow mostly boat trailers with telescoping tongues, and I've seen 1 1/2' increase in tongue length change a badly swaying trailer to one that you couldn't get to sway if you tried. In general, the longer the tongue, (or further back the trailer axles) the better, because that increases the difference between trailer and tow vehicle oscillating frequencies. If none of the other suggestions solve the problem, it would be worth trying to modify the oscillation frequency. You can't easily lengthen the tongue on yours, but you still can decrease it's oscillating frequency by moving the axle back as far as possible, and then repositioning the T to maintain the tongue weight. The further back, the slower the sway (longer pendulum). It doesn't look like there is much room in your wheel well to move it much, though. I would look to see if it might be possible to move the entire box back further on the frame.

Does the trailer have leaf or torsion springs? Leaf springs will equalize the weight between axles if the trailer isn't level, but torsion axles won't. If they are torsion, try using a higher or lower hitch, as that will dramatically affect the load carried by each axle.

The geometry of the spring attachments and axles can also be a factor. When a trailer reaches the end of a "swing", it leans to the outside as it's swing direction changes. That shifts more of the weight to the wheels on that side. If the wheels are even the slightest bit towed out, the trailer will steer even further to that side before starting back to center. Try to measure to be sure that there is no tow-out. A little tow-in would be good, as that tends to steer back toward center when the weight shifts. Spring shackle arrangement can also add to that. A single axle trailer typically has the shackles at the rear. When the weight shifts to the outside, that spring is compressed more, which because of the action of the shackle moves that end of the axle rearward, thus steering the trailer even further out into the swing. Simply turning the springs around and putting the shackles in front can have a dramatic improvement. Soon as the weight starts to shift, the axle tries to steer it back toward center, rather than trying to steer it even further to the side. I've seen this work on several single axle trailers, but don't know about tandem, because the shackles are typically on the front of the front axles and rear of the rear axles.

Bob,
I have had your experience, like the others above have.
The center of gravity on my 1914 touring, with the top up, is almost the center if the car. The car is slightly nose heavy. Loading backwards vs frontwards requires the same position within inches.

Bob, I believe what I say here will get some comments. I think your post on 6/3/06 at 8:03 contains the statement with the clue to the problem. You said:
"Alan- I've got at least 300+ lbs on the tongue (my scale doesn't go past 300 lbs). Afterwards, when we checked the tongue weight, when I climbed on the back of the car (I'm 210+ lbs) the hitch didn't go down any further."

I believe you may have too much tongue weight! This caused the body of the 4runner to contact the rear axle and sit on the rubber bumpers. Your statement "when I climbed on the back of the car (I'm 210+ lbs) the hitch didn't go down any further" indicates this condition.

This will cause the load to raise the front of the 4runner as it pivots on these bumpers. This condition lightens the load on the front tires and causes a severe steering problem. I fell into this on a rainy night. I loaded a Jaguar XKE on my implement trailer which was connected to my Jaguar XJS, {4200#+1500#=5700# for the trailer and the tow car weighed 4300#}. I proceeded to the end of my street and tried to turn the corner. The car went straight ahead. Of course, I applied brakes. When the front tires loaded up, the car turned until I stopped. I realized that I was bottomed out and shifted the load rearward until the car was not bottomed out. I then proceeded to drive this combination from Seattle to Oklahoma City at some very high speeds, through rain, snow, black ice, mountain passes and mud. This entire rig was very manageable. Quite docile.


So much for the percentage rules. If I had 10% hitch weight I would have raised the front wheels of the XJS off the ground!!
So much for the 40% rule. I wouldn't have relocated 1800 miles if I had adhered to that rule.

I don't think I had over 300# on the tongue, closer to 250#. The "rule" calls for 570#!
The 40% rule would have limited me to 1720#!!
Oh, one other thing, the brakes were not working.

I don't know who came up rules but I couldn't live by them with my lifestyle.

Before I retired the XKE I pulled a 2 horse trailer complete with 2 horses in it. Before that, I pulled the T on an open trailer behind the XKE!

Another fractured rule. Experience plays a very, very large part in the scheme of things.

The rules are pretty safe but even the rules can cause trouble, sometimes. There are hidden rules for the rules? I believe this may be one of the times.

Noel

I agree with the suggestion the tongue weight may be too high. While the most common cause of trailer sway problems is too little tongue weight, too much can also cause problems. Too high tongue weight will cause swaying. Check the Toyota manual to see if it specifies a maximum tongue weight. It may also specify that load levelers are needed with a trailer over a certain weight.

10% tongue weight is the upper limit. The recommended tongue weight in Europe is 4%. The optimal amount of tongue weight will depend on the trailer characteristics and the tow vehicle characteristitics.

As far as needed a heavier tow vehicle goes, a heavier tow vehicle will have more margin for too little or too much tongue weight, under-inflated tires, etc. But if someone with a 6000lb boat and trailer tries to follow the 40% rule suggested above the will need a 15,000 lb tow vehicle. Best rule is to follow the manufactuers recommendations including tongue weight and recommended equipment.

When building trailers the general rule of thumb is to place the axle 1 inch back from center for every foot of length.On a tandem 14 foot,the center between the 2 axles would be 14 inchs back from center of the trailer frame.the photo of the trailer looks to me like it is balanced with axles in the center.
I would consider a heavier tow vehical also.
Starting a load from a standstill is 1 thing,but controling it is another.
I am glad noone was hurt in your incident.

Here is a picture of my rig on my way to Wisconsin. This is at the park at Evanston, Wyoming. I have about 10% of the weight on the car, which is a Jeep GC Overland. The trailer has 4 wheel brakes and I tow at 65 MPH±.

Here's another look at the trailer. I have load- levelers.

This thread reminds me of a horror story I saw first hand about 20 years ago. there was a Rolls Royce, PIII (That's a V-12 model) limo that was owned by two parties. Unknown to one, the other had a great offer for the car, rented a U Haul trailer, loaded the car on backwards (no Idea why that was done) and headed south with no insurance (was greedy for the money). Got about 30 miles, where Hwy 99 has a small S curve, the trailer flipped the truck and trailer--there wasn't one untouched piece on the car, although some of the side glass survived intact. The wood framed body really splintered. The car ended up in the shop I managed at the time. The Shop's owner wanted to turn it into a dual cowl pheaton-was enough good sheet metal to do that. Never happened, he passed away. I think the motor ended up in another PIII that someone had put a Caddy motor and automatic tranny in for a "little old lady" who couldn't handle the V-12 and manual trany. I hope that's what happened, because at least one car would be "brought back".
T'
David D.
PS took a long time to get the title straightened out too! Boy were there two unhappy folks--fortunately the towing folks weren't seriously hurt.

Bob:

I have reread all of your postings and here are some of my observations. I noticed you stated that the tires were 225/75/R15 inflated to 50#. Was there an ST before 225? If not you have the wrong tires on your trailer. Those are standard automotive radial tires and do not belong on that trailer. I know because when I bought my trailer it had the same size tire on it. That would go a long way toward explaining the sway problem. The sidewall of the tire is way to weak to control any kind of sway. They are also way over the 35# maximum inflation rating.

Tires made for trailer service will have an ST prefix. The standard radial tire for that trailer should be an ST205/75/R15. This is the only radial tire of that size that's rated for trailer service and 50# of pressure.

I also took another look at your trailer and noticed you have the brackets for load levelers on the tongue. Did you buy this trailer from a private individual or from a dealer? Did you happen to get the load leveler bars and ball mount from the previous owner? I suspect the previous owner had the same problem as you and added them as the trailer seems rather light to require them under normal conditions. I have hauled up to my trailer's max of 7000# with out needing them.

There is no reason your 4Runner cannot handle that setup with regards to weight. I tow my 26 Tudor sedan on an 18 foot open tandem with my 91 Dodge Dakota and run about 60-65 mph. The weight of my truck and your 4Runner are similar as is the combined weight of my T and trailer compared to yours.

I am presuming that your 4Runner has the factory towing package seeing you have the factory hitch. That should insure that you have the proper rear suspension to handle the 5000# towing capability.

The problem is you have very little room to play with to balance the load with regards to both tongue weight and tail weight and the tires are not helping that equation. A trailer 2 feet longer with the correct tires will go along way towards solving your problem.

I agree with those that say to much tongue weight is a bad thing. The rule of thumb I have for loading my trailer is to measure the hitch height with the trailer empty and load for 1 inch downward deflection for my tongue weight. This insures that I have positive tongue weight, yet doesn't pull down the back of the truck enough to upset the standard steering and braking geometry. This rule applies for anything I carry on that trailer. The rear wheels of my T end up just behind the center line of the rear axle of the trailer. If I am hauling something unusual, I may have to break this rule to prevent getting too much weight past the rear wheels of the trailer.

I think this posting has given you a wide variety of options to work from. My next step would be to take the trailer loaded with the car very slowly to a reputable trailer dealer and go over these options and senerios with them. They are the "experts" and have probably seen this problem many times before.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Dave

Here is a picture of the REESE sway control you should get. I may have it pictured backwards, but it is a "cam type"set up that locks in when you are going straight ahead. It cured all my problems. Getting correct tension on bars is VERY critical. Scale works the best, but my easy test on the road, was measure ball height empty. Drop trailer on ball, and then raise with bars until bar height was now about a 1 inch lower. This worked on my Ford Bronco. Jim

Bob;

Does your trailer have springs or torsion axles? I had a problem with sway and handdling on a short 5th wheel about 10 years ago; turned out I had a cracked spring and one of the wheels had shifted back, effectively putting it out of allignment. One I replaced the springs and hangers all was well. I supose there is an equivalent scenario with torsion axles.

I Know I should keep my mouth shut, its got me in trouble before, and im not trying to be a trouble maker, Ive always deleted my posts before i sent them,Ive hauled 1 car, 2 cars 3 cars and even more on trailers pulled behind 1/2 ton and 3/4 pickups, never even got close to having problems. This is a plane and simple problem. U got way to small of a tow vechile, look at that trailer way to high for what your driving and way to big for your little SUV, theres just way to many people out there with campers and other things ther pulling just because u can back up to it hook it up and pull it doesnt mean u can handle it, what did the last guy pull it with. Your 4 runner is just way to small to handle it, maybe with a open trailer lower center of gravity u mite but handle it, not with what u got. Also if u have trailer brakes on the trailer, They should react just before your tow vechile brakes do, and this varys with your load wheather its loaded or not and u adjust that with the knobs on your controller in your cab,just because u have them on the trailer doesnt mean they work, check them out, Yes its a good thing u werent hurt, but when this happens its most of the time the other family on the road that gets wiped out. When it comes to towing throw that little book in the glove box away, what happens if u do get it tow ok then some jerk pulls out in front of u cuts u off, u hit the brakes, your car starts to move sideways u turn the wheel and u can stop just plane and simple fact we have a accident waiting for a place to happen. I know i should have kept my mouth shut again.

Thanks everyone. I'm in the middle of a move (LA to San Diego, that's where I was trying to take the car) so I'm having trouble with computer access until I get hooked up in San Diego, but I appreciate all the responses. I had a sway bar mounted on the hitch (the trailer already had the fitting, I just didn't know what it was for) and it seems to have helped. I just a little afraid of getting back on the freeway with it until I'm sure what the whole problem is.
1. I've got people telling me to move the car forward (more tongue weight) and people saying move it backwards (less tongue weight). How do I know which is right.. . .just by trying both?

2. No wind that day. Not front wheel drive.

3. 10% would be 380 #. How do I know whether to follow the 10% rule or not? With a 14' trailer and bumpers on the roadster, I don't have a lot of room inside the trailer for shifting back or forward. Would a foot make a big difference?

4.Michael- as soon as I get my computer set up, I'll send a picture of the damage. Thank you.

5. 4035# tow vehicle weight (4Runner), 3800# trailer/T weight. Maybe that's the problem (altho I'm getting replies both ways!). Of course, the dealer said no problem, that's why we chose the 4Runner.

6. Since it's a high enclosed trailer, short base, and relatively light weight, would the wind resistance be taking the weight off the tongue and making it sway (altho I've had suggestions to tongue weight both ways!).

7. Bob- thanks for the suggestion on the tongue and scale method. I'll try it.

8. Dave -thanks for your help. Yes, it's ST 225/75/R15. It had car radial tires (two 225's and two 205's!) on it when I bought it. Towed fron Arizona empty fine. When I got home, I took it to a trailer service place, they suggested the ST 225/75/R15 with 50# pressure (Goodyear/Marathon trailer tires). Would ST 225 instead of ST 205 make a difference . . .good or bad? Since the accident I've had the sway bar put on (as in the picture, the trailer had been fitted with the "ball" before butnI didn't get the "sway bar" with it and I just didn't realize what it was for. That seems to indicate that it had this problem before, but again, why? With the new sway bar, it seems to be better. . .I'm just gun-shy of getting on the hwy and trying it out!

9. I measured the deflection on the car hitch. When the trailer is let down on the car, it goes down about 3 inches. Enough? Too much? I'll try to measure the tongue weight again with Bob's method.

Thanks again for all your help,
Bob

Mike- No, you shouldn't have kept your mouth shut, and I appreciate you didn't. I'm feeling the same way! The controller is brand new, yes I had it adjusted for the weight of the trailer vs the car, and the trailer brakes were checked and fixed by the trailer service dealer before I got on the road. They also suggested that the 4Runner was fine to pull the load I had in mind, and told me I didn't need a sway bar (altho they changed their mind after the accident). Thank you for posting, because I agree with you!

Bob, My thoughts on a few of your questions:
question 1: Yes, you can try it both ways, but first get a good weight measurement to know where you are starting from. I'd first try less tongue weight.

question 3: Yes, a foot will make substantial difference.

question 5: Of course, a heavier tow vehicle will have a greater safety margin, and greater chance of recovery when something goes wrong, but you should be able to get it sway free with what you have; unless it's just the perfectly wrong combination of wheel bases as I discussed earlier.

question 9: That sounds like a lot. Enough to affect the vehicles balance and geometry, to say nothing of the headlight aim. Adds fuel to the suggestions that you may have too much tongue weight.

Back in 2003, I rented a U-Haul tandem axle car hauling trailer and hauled a 1926 Model T Coupe 1430 miles from Maine to Florida, through all kinds of terrain, up mountains, down mountains, through heavy New York City and New Jersey stop and go traffic with no incident. The trailer had a sign on the wheel fender that said not to exceed 45 miles an hour, but I found I could easily and safely keep up with 70 mph interstate traffic. I did this by positioning and balancing the car directly over the axle, like an old fashioned scale, so that there was zero weight on the tongue and zero weight on the rear. After the trailer was loaded, it would have sat perfectly level before being hooked up to the truck. Jim.

Seems like you are getting a handle on it with a lot of good input. Like others have said, a heavier vehicle will dampen sway, mask the trailer problem more or less. If the weight is within the vehicle towing specification then it is OK. But what it means is that both vehicles have to be set up within the correct towing parameters too! Everything has to be correct, or the vehicle towing specification doesn't mean anything.

SUV towing performance is a big deal. That's what sells them- that and paint (like the salesmen say).

At a Toyota service division I worked at in Japan they had a huge 20' X 20' drive on cast iron surface plate, part of a load cell for hitch performance. I think there was also a roll test rig (like a dyno, but for NVH hook ups and suspension dynamics). They were super serious about their own and after market hitches and do extensive testing. Since it is a new vehicle, there might be a glitch but I doubt it.

If you contact the trailer manufacturer, tell them you had an accident (that will get their attention and hopefully to tech support, not sales) and need an explanation of the cause. In this discussion you have to make sure to clearly separate swaying and the fish tail. What a highly experienced driver does, like many above have said, applys one or more correctives to get out of it. Stick to the cause of the sway, that way the manufacturer will not get off the hook with giving you a driving lesson. The point is the trailer should track perfectly with the 4Runner if everything is set up correctly in both vehicles- that is the point. Do you have an operator manual for the trailer? If not I would get one (hopefully off the internet) before you contact them. If you can't get one, I would call anyway, because it is a used trailer, and the responsibility of the former trailer owner to pass on the documentation at the point of sale.

I hope everything goes without a hitch!

P.S. I forgot to mention, I'm sure you have not had time to inspect the trailer and the SUV, but I would put the trailer on a rack and get a good inspection light and go over it. A rack would be best, it is more thorough. I'm starting to wonder if there might be damage either before or after the fish tail incident. Don't wipe anything down. Inspect everything a couple of times, and then wipe it down underneath if you can't see something. Metal fatigue and weld failure is covered up sometimes if you clean it first.

This might seem like overkill but unless you find the cause, it could happen again. It is a very serious issue, which I'm sure you are well aware of because you went through it.

Bob,

don't go selling your 4Runner, where I come from in New Zealand, 4Runners, Surfs and Hilux's (all basicly the same thing) are just about the mainstay 4WD of choice, every man and his dog has one to pull all sorts of heavy things, caravans, boats, vehicle trailers, you name it, and they all stay on the road. We don't have the big huge heavy Ford and Chev pickup style vehicles like you US blokes have. There's no need to put a band-aid on your problem by changing the tow vehicle, find the wound on the trailer !!!

Good luck with your final solution,

Regards,
Bede Cordes

LISTEN TO DAVE DEYOUNG

Just to let everyone know both of Bob's car's are now in San Diego (actually the 26 is now in my driveway) he hired a flatbed for 1 car which also pulled the enclosed trailer. It was the vehicle & not the trailer.

Alex

Also he's been off the web for a while because of the move.

Thanks for the update, i wish we knew why the vehicle was at fault.

Buy American!

Chad, Dave has good advice though that would relate to any tow vehical with any amount of wieght.
The vehical is well built,and dependable for family transportation and would work well pulling small water craft and utilty trailers and such,And I am sure it has the Horse power to pull the load,but to safely move a large box down the road with the wind resistance, wieght of the trailer being so close to that of the tow vehical,it is just pushing the envolope of saftey to it's limit.I see similar issues related to camper trailers,folkes will get a S10 blazer,hook a 26 foot camper to it,find out it will pull it down the drive way ,then load the blazer with people and stuff and take off on a 400 mile trip to the beach for a 2 day weekend at 65 mph on a hot july day.Half way there,the trans goes out or it runs hot or they jack knife it trying to stop at a light.The first thing they want to do is blame the vehical or find some other excuse other than accepting the fact they should have considered renting or buying a heavyer tow vehical to fill the need.
Towing a heavy object with a small vehical for a short emergency trip can be done but slowly and paying alot of attention and staying on less traveled roads so you can keep the speed down.Dont use over drive.and leave plenty of stopping room .
It is sad that so many people have bought the larger suv's for no reason other than show,it gives them a bad rap,because originaly they did and still do have a function.They replace the 50's and 60's full size v8 station wagons that were made to do multitasking like towing and transporting but still carry the grocerys.

1 other thing to consider,what is the tounge wieght rateing on the factory hitch of the Toyota?

I have looked for tongue weight rateing to no avail and will try and get it from the mfg. if Bob needs it. Also checked Toyota towing performance sites and trailer recalls. Like T Dump said, mainly boat people in Florida. No car towers.

The center of gravity is so high in a Model T, I wonder if that interacts in a bad way.

I also found a DOT (Department of Transportation) document on towing. Am I correct in saying that DOT said manufacturers issue tongue weight for tow vehicles in the pamphlet?

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/Equipment/towing/Towing.pdf

I certainly dont claim to be an expert at towing. Last year I took a month off work to take our 1800 lb model steam tractor and associated stuff to my son on Vancouver Island ( I live near Toronto Ontario). After some thought and research I went to the trailer making firm " Miska" in Hamilton Ontario, told them what I was intending to move and asked for their recommendations. I bought a single axle , drop axle landscapers style trailer with electric brakes. My mechanic wired an electric brake controller he recommended into our S10 Jimmy and I loaded the trailer about 100lbs heavy on the ball with trailer and Jimmy on my " level" yard. We travelled the whole journey without problems, I used the trailer brakes as the main control of speed down the steep bits over the rockies. I have no connection with the trailer co except for being a very satisfied customer. If she who must be obeyed will agree I hope I will soon have a T. Regards David Powell.

Click www.uhaul.com/guide/index.aspx?equipment=towing-autotransport, to see the tandem axle auto hauling trailer I rented from U-Haul to transport my Model T, 1,300 miles from Maine to Florida. I recommend it highly, as it is the safest and best trailer you can use. The U-Haul site also has a lot of useful tips on how to safely haul a vehicle including tongue weights and hitch info. Jim

That looks like a home built trailer. You might want to X the axles from the front tip of the tounge to the outside of the axles, with the wheels off. If the measurement is NOT THE SAME, one of the axles is NOT square to the road and can cause that also. Been there done that, and from the looks of the axle to bed setup, the axles need to be about another foot to the rear.

Kirk

sorry I looked at the wrong picture, but the enclosed trailer looks to be ok from the axle position, but even though it is a professionally built trailer, I would still X the axles to check to see if the axles are square to the road.

Kirk

Thanks everybody. Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, but I'm in the middle of a move (to San Diego, that's where I was attempting to move the cars when it happened) and I don't have internet service yet. I haven't had a chance yet to get an estimate on the damage to the car (left rear quarter panel, fender skirt, small area above the quarter panel- but that piece goes all along the upper side of the car, and the left rear hub cap and wheel) or damage to the trailer (mainly sheet metal, not structural). This was the first and last time for me! Because escrow had closed and I had to be out of the house, and I didn't know the cause for sure, I hired a transport company to haul my '26 on the flatbed and pull my trailer with my '17 inside (14,000 lb truck, should be no problem, right?). When we got to San Diego, he told me it was the worst towing trailer ever, and if he went over 50 mph it started to sway (he knew my story before hand, had checked out the trailer and said it was fine. . .just needed a heavier tow vehicle!). so, i guess it must have something to do with the trailer. For now, it's just a big expensive garage, and isn't going anywhere! Thanks for your help,I'll try to answer your other questions when i get my internet service retored.

Bob

I think that pretty much answers the question of whether it was the tow vehicle or the trailer.

Dave

Bob, having been there and done that myself, I'm wondering if our events have any common denminators. A couple questions please!

Did your trailer have leave springs and was one spring end firmly attached to the trailer frame? Did your trailer have tires that were made for a trailer with 35 to 40 pounds of pressure in each tire? Did your trailer have brakes on all wheels and did you check all brakes to ensure there was not a broken spring or any loose material in the drum area that might have intermittently applied a brake to one wheel?

Short box trailers are like short canoes, you cant hardly handle them, the longer the better! I pull a 48 foot gooseneck triple axle box w/ F450 4x4 twin cab disel w/14 ply tires on rear, loaded you know its there, 16 foot from rear edge of tire to rear of trailer, kind of like a tail on a dog when turning corners, WOW, you dont speed, because you know you have 30 foot of T's and parts and liv quarters in the front of it

Still borrowing (read "stealing")an internet signal with my wireless, so I've got to hurry:

James-leaf springs are fine, 4 new tires (Goodyear/Marathon 225-75-R15 trailer tires @50# per manufacturer, had trailer brakes electric on all 4 wheels checked the day before I left, controller seemed to work fine. The flat bed driver didn't have the brakes hooked up when he pulled it. . .said he didn't need them with a 14,000 lb truck.

I've had the tongue weight checked by 3 different people and told it was fine (altho I've gotten e-mails from you all suggesting everything from 4% to 15% on the tongue (152 lbs to 570 lbs. . .that's quite a range considering I'm being told by some I had too much tongue weight and others not enough! I'm told California DMV requires 10% which is what I have/had). Maybe a 14 ft trailer is bad because that only leaves about a foot inside to "adjust" the car?

Jim-in southern california, U-haul won't rent you an auto trailer if you want to pull it with your own car/truck. You have to rent one of their moving vans to pull it (bad on one hand, but after the experience I went thru, it's sounding better all the time!

Mack and Michael- the factory installed hitch for the car is rated at 5000# (one reason I bought it) and the max-rated tongue weight is 500#. For those of you said I should have bought American, it's made in Kentucky. My new Ford was made in Canada (I found that out when the rack and pinion went out after just after I bought it and it took 6 weeks to get the parts from Canada!).

tdump- I agree. But I'd only gone about a quarter of a mile, had barely gotten to 40 mph when it started to sway, no wind that day. If the 14,000# flatbed has problems with it swaying, that would seem to nullify the problem being the weight of my car or even the wheel base ratio (as far as the pendulum effect).

Michael- altho it may have had damage after the accident, I did have it checked by a reputable trailer service dealer before I took it on the road, mainly because I know I don't know much about pulling a trailer. They checked the brakes, the wheels, put on new tires, told me I didn't need a sway bar (changed their minds after the accident!) and said I would be fine pulling 3800# with my 4Runner. I tried to do the responsible thing.

As someone above said, maybe it's top heavy, maybe it HAS been damaged, maybe the wheel base is too short, maybe the T is too "springy" in a top-heavy trailer with a short wheel base (*g*). If you read the posts again (and I have every day) you'll see that I have been given quite a wide range of suggestions for fixing the problem....some of them contradictory to other suggestions given elsewhere in the posts. And you wouldn't believe some of the vendictive e-mails I've received!

I do appreciate everyones help, and I'm trying to the best of my ability to find out what's wrong. As soon as I've got internet again, and the move is over, I'll try to answer more questions. Thank you again,

Bob

Bob, I'm sorry to hear you have received any emails except those who are willing to help you solve the trailer problem. My goodness! My impression in this whole thread is that you are trying your best to make your set up safe for your family and everyone else on the road. The great thing about these forums is that we all learn from each others experiences and encourage those in the hobby to have fun and be safe.....Michael P.

Well I must say a rollback shouldnt have trouble pulling a 14 foot trailer.That does lead me to beleive there is a problem with the trailer.
The suggjestions in regards to axle alignment,considering in your "before" photo of a damaged right fender,would be the first thing I would look for.Also worn spring bolts,and mounts can lead to missalignment.The measurements from axle to hitch do work for alignment.
It could also be that most are correct in saying the axle layout on the trailer is just "off".

Bob,
You are certainly right about the advice being contradictory. There is a good reason for that. Every vehicle-trailor combination as a bit different. There are so many different parameters and variables. Therefore everyone has had different experiences. The way to deal with the contradictory advice is to try both. You said that 3 people checked the tongue weight and said it was fine. You say that you are at 10%, so I assume that you are carrying about 380 pounds tongue weight. What was the determination that it was fine based on? Their experience with their trailor? The fact that it is 10%? It's your trailer-vehicle combination that matters, and it may be different. I know nothing about California DMV rules, but unless patrol cars carry scales in the trunk, I wouldn't worry about that. Your experiences so far do seem a bit extreeme, and may suggest a problem beyond the usual balance issues, but without some experimenting, you won't know.

Thanks Bob, Michael, and Mack. Calif DMV says 10% of trailer weight on the tongue (in my case 380# tongue weight on a 3800# trailer). The 3 trailer people all said that was correct (and they measured it). The tow driver checked before hauling it and said it should be fine. My ball hitch is rated for a max tongue weight of 500# (the car hitch for 5000# trailer weight.

When I went to check the trailer/'17 T today at the storage yard (I hadn't had time the other day when the tow driver dropped it off because we were delivering the '26 to Alex), a number of the black and white 12" square tiles along the left side of the trailer were off the floor and scattered around the inside of the trailer (not asphalt tile, looks like peel-n-stick on plywood?)Is that just because they're old and the trailer has been sitting in the Arizona desert for a number of years before I bought it, or does that indicate that maybe the Trailer and/or floor was warping/twisting as we drove the trailer (even tho it's supposedly a "T trailer", could the car be too much weight for the frame?).
Again, I appreciate everyone's help and hope that my frustration at times with some of the criticism I've received doesn't make you think I don't value your help. Thanks,

Bob

. . .I've included a "before" picture of the inside of the trailer because I can't find my camera in all the boxes jammed inside my condo!).

Bob,

I am a Toyota employee and think Toyota builds some of the best made vehicles anywhere. Nevertheless the 4Runner is not up to pulling your trailer given the bulk, wind resistance and weight factors. It sounds like the trailer itself may have issues but even if it did not the 4Runner would be a poor choice to tow a trailer that weighed 90% as much as the empty vehicle weight.

I tried to read all the posts here, maybe I missed it but the 4Runner would be at maximum load capacity with that trailer and a 200 pound driver in the seat if I am reading correctly. If you had another passenger and / or more weight in the 4Runner then the vehicle would be overloaded by that amount which would contribute to poor handling issues.

Royce

Bob,
I like Mark Basler's suggestion to "LISTEN TO DAVE DEYOUNG"
If a towing professional says it is an ill handling trailer, listen to him. Trade it for one that is longer and maybe not as tall. Or cut the tongue off and extend it a foot or two (welding required).

I personally prefer longer to shorter. Longer wheelbase on the tow vehicle and / or longer distance from the hitch to the wheels on the trailer.
I like to be able to move the load back and forth in a trailer. Your trailer is too short to experiment. You cannot move the car forward. I am not sure your trailer is really suitable for hauling a Model T.
And I like for the tow vehicle to weigh more than what is being towed.
I have never used an Equalizer hitch. Friends who have them swear by them. And your trailer does have at least part of an Equalizer hitch on the tongue.

That said, I have towed lots of miles with a Chevy S-10 Blazer and a 14 foot open trailer. I had to drive it to keep the Blazer in front of the trailer. And when I made the mistake of putting passenger car tires on the Blazer it was totally out of control.
My F-150 with a 144 inch wheelbase is much better.

I do have a question for the T people on this list. I once hauled home a 40 Ford pickup with no engine and lousy shock absorbers. I had to stop, let the air out of the tires, attach the chains and load binders to the frame rather than the axles and blow the tires up to make it home.
I do not want to do that with Clincher tires. So is the T stiff enough to tie it down by the ends of the axles? Or do you tie it down at the frame?
I have rachet nylon straps now days rather than the chains and load binders of old. My T is a 14 roadster pickup, not a four door sedan. It seemed to come home fine the only time I hauled it.

Ciao,
Russ Neely
Oklahoma City

Also, maybe a model T should be fastened to the trailer by the cars frame. If fastened by the cars axles, it could be like pulling a trailer full of 2000 pounds of pogo sticks (no shocks), possibly beginning the deadly sway.

The Model T rear axle is weak and can be bowed easily. The front wishbone ball cap connection is extremely weak. For these reasons a Model T should be tied down to the trailer using the springs as an anchor point for the straps.

Royce