Okay, let me say I know I am opening up the doors to a flood of "differences of opinion", but I would like to know what you folks think is fair dollar for the following: early T (brass); black years T; Later T models in a) restored condition b)older restored or useable condition; and c) restorable condition.

If you have a pic of a car that corresponds to your reply, pls include it.

It would be a nice idea to have a photo price guide on this site to refer folks to sometimes.....eBay is nuts thesedays, and some of the price guides out there are Barrett-Jackson happy.....

I inhaled, admit it freely, and never been as whacked out as some of the folks who think their bitsa cars are worth 35-40,000$.

Same thing can be said for parts..........

cheers!

R.M.

I guess I ain't following you when you say eBay is nuts and the price guides look like Barrett-Jackson. To me, the age-old verbage of "The Buyer sets the Value" could not be more truthful in this circumstance. The prices that we see on Barrett are indeed factual and it takes at least two different people to establish the $$ mark. While one never knows totally what is myth on eBay, my findings are that more times than not, the item does exchange hands for the amount that you see.

There was a '15 Touring recently listed on eBay located in my town that I wanted. The brutal truth was that it was worth the money at what he wanted for it at his Buy-It-Now price (AND I knew it!!) but I felt sure I could "steal it" for thousands less after the auction by me just waiting and telling him that Model T don't bring that kind of money. Guess what ...I didn't step up and someone else did with 5 days left before the auction closed. The brutal fact of the matter was I knew it was a value and so did several others but I was trying to convince myself differently because of a mindset. I later spoke with someone that knew the Seller well and he relayed that he actually had quite a few inquiries regarding the car and people disappointed afterwards that they did not hit the Buy-It-Now button until it was too late. To me that means others saw it as a value but were unwilling to pay the Seller what it was worth.

Now the 2nd portion of your question is gonna be 'touchy' with many folks here but there are darn few "restored" Model T's out there to choose from. The term "Restored" by definition means to return to a state of 'as manufactured' or initially assembled. Generally speaking this means that each part or component needs to be rebuilt back to a tollerence that meets or exceed specifications equal to or greater than when they were originally manufactured. Most T owners are perfectly satisfied to "Repair & Repaint" --and do understand that this perfectly OK to do it that way, but that an owner/seller should not mis-represent their vehicle as being "Restored" to others. My feelings are that if the spring perch eyes are sloppy and the owner wants to re-assemble them that way, it is OK but the item really has not been "restored". Or if the instrument panel has a been installed with a working but sloppy headlight switch that must be fiddled with, and an ammeter that works fine but has the lettering almost faded beyond recognition, is this truly a "restored" vehicle? We can even take this to a discussion regarding "fit & finish". The Model T did not come from the factory with rust pits in the frame, nor a bent axle, or bent steering components (tie rod/drag link/etc.) but the average T that has been "restored" has these characteristics.

I purchased a Depot Hack recently after looking feverishly for a restored car that met my standards. This car looked decent but when I got to looking at it closely, there was a multitude of sins. The R/S frame rail had a 3/8ths of an inch sag in it. We straightened the frame rail and then rebucked all of the rivets tight again. I then used a Kevlar-stranded filler to fill all of the pits prior to spraying it in Black Urethane. The other day I was accused of "over-restoration" on this chassis by a couple of local Model T gurus when they came by to inspect it. They tell me that Henry Ford never bodyworked his frame and never went to all of that trouble. I could not agree more but ole 'Hank' never sent one out the door with a rust pitted frame either. By straightening the farme and re-bucking all of the rivets back tight again, I have "restored" that frame back to a condition that was equal to what it was when it left the factory. By filling the rust pits with filler prior to painting with urethane, I have mimicked the "look" of what the frame looked like when it was on the assembly line. I am guilty of "over-restoration" in that I used a paint of 'higher quality' than the enamel that was used during the original assembly however it does mimick the look of the era.

So the question beckons, if I am wanting a Brass-era Touring that has had a meticulous restoration, --or in other words, a car that has had everything "restored" properly, what is the value to someone for that level of car? To you that caliber of car may not be worth much more than a good low-mileage original car. To someone else it may be worth much more. John Sizemore just sold a nice 26-27 Touring for decent money because it came closer to meeting the criteria of what a "restored" vehicle is. My thoughts on pricing is to determine just how much of a value is the car to you in a given condition? YOU set th ebenchmark for you --and you alone. You are the one that earned your money and so it has a value to you (and you only) on what it is worth. Please don't confuse this with the face value of the denomination. I find that everyone places a different value on items. Motel 6 and the Hyatt Regency both rent rooms each night for the purpose of sleeping in. The occupancy on any given night will likely be roughly the same, ...although the pricing will be drastically different. Each place offers a value --but that perception is different to each individual.

Now to chase a rabbit. Something else that has always intrigued me about Model T folk in general. Some T people will go buy a brand new boat or camper knowing they will never be able to sell it and re-coop their investment. Most T people will complain that new cars and trucks are just too expensive and yet there are brand new ones sold each and every day of the week. Look at how much money is spent on a nice meal out with our signifigant other --and what do we have to show for our investment the next day? [grin] I could go on but my point is that somewhere, somebody said it is wrong to spend money on a Model T and almost everyone has taken that as GOSPEL. Therefore I tell my customers to build their car to please themselves and go have fun with it. I tell my kids to be respectful of someone else's car and just because it does not interest my child does not mean that the owner is not totally satisfied with their T just the way it is. Sometimes adults need to be reminded of this too. [hee hee]

Now back to work for me...

Brent
couldn't have said it better (or probably as well)

R.M.
I will give you a example of what Brent says I think. A local fellow did a absolutely flawless restoration of a '15 centerdoor. He went to the extent of having the upholstery trim custom loomed in Switzerland as it was unavailable...
Apparently '15's also had unique rear fenders, some minor detail. And he had these made as well, exact copies.
So now he goes to get it insured and of course he needs a appraisal. He has spent $30,000.00 on this car and that was 12 years ago. And he didn't do anything twice but did it to the standard that Brent descibes. The local model T guy who calls himself a "appraiser" looks at the car, pulls out the Old Car price guide and says it isn't worth over $15,000.00. The owner is totally disheartened and basically stops working on T's. He has several really nice cars half done. He doesn't drive the car because he wants to have it insured for what it WOULD COST TO REPLACE IT TO THE SAME STANDARD. And it would cost more than that to replace it to the same standard

The nice thing about the Model T hobby is that most of the attention is focused on driving our Model T's. In that respect the guy who has a good running T often is having more fun than the guy who is displaying his trailer queen Model T on a piece of carpet in the hotel lobby.

Some guys do drive their beautifully restored T's on the tours and I guess they have the best of all worlds.

Royce

Back to the question at hand. Of course there are several factors at play when one buys a Model T. Sentimentality, love for the car, the law of supply and demand, affordability, etc, but I guess the best way to give an idea of what Model T's currently go for is not to guestimate, but to list what you paid for yours, the year, the style, the condition it was in when you bought it and the region from which it was purchased. In 2003, I bought a fully "restored", showroom condition, 1926 Coupe for $8,700.00 from York, Maine. In 2004, I bought an unrestored, but completely original and beautifully preserved and running, 1926 Fordor for $5,000.00 from Largo, Florida, near Tampa. So original was it that it still has a yellow, 1932 Illinois decal on the windshield. I reside in Florida. Jim

When Brent talks about value and inability to recoup your investment after restoring your car (as did Les) - if you want to recoup your investment, then buy one that someone else spent all the money on to restore. That car, at a seemingly "Barrett-Jackson" price is still cheaper than buying a barnyard find and restoring it. For many of us, this just isn't what we want.

Restoring it with your own hands, though it will cost more, still has value. Growing your own vegetables can cost more than buying them from the grocery, going to the grocery is far less work, yet many choose to grow their own. And the only reason someone may do it is the satisfaction of "doing it myself".

Buying high, investing money, time, and work - then selling low (compared to investment) at the end? Sure, I'll probably do it time and time again.

The real good news is that when it is time to sell, they all line up!

Incidentally - T's are no doubt less valuable than people that don't know otherwise think. Many people think my unlowered, needs almost nothing Speedster is worth in the neighborhood of 15 grand, yet on a good day it might bring little more than half that.

Seth

Les,
'Tis a shame your Centerdoor restorer friend became so discouraged. .. . . trying a different insurance company may help. I've insured several cars thru Grundy, and all that was asked of me is "How much insurance do you want?" I was not in the $30,000.00 range though. In discussions with the agent, it was stated that sometimes for a "high value" auto, a picture is required.
Hope your friend becomes revitalized. . . .Dave

---

quote:

"...the guy who has a good running T often is having more fun than the guy who is displaying his trailer queen Model T on a piece of carpet in the hotel lobby.

---

As a guide: Touring cars

Brass 14 and newer, nice driver, basically correct, 13 to 15k

Black 17 and newer, nice driver, basically correct 8 to 12k

Roadster minus 5%, Coup minus 10%, Centerdoor plus 15%, other closed cars, non rare, less 15%

These are basic numbers for basic cars that are not considerd rare. I am basing this on a couple of years looking at adds and ebay etc.

If you stay in this range you will not get hurt.

Remember - a T is a relatively inexpensive car as long as you are able to do most of the work yourself. Experienced machanics without T experience are very little help in day to day repairs etc.

Vince

Brent,
We have a local guy who had (maybe still has) two restored 1903 Model A Fords in his office. He has a 1926 T roadster that was professionally restored. He couldn't get used to driving it so it now has a Pinto engine and automatic transmission but looks stock externally. He's having fun, but I don't get it. He paid to have all that stuff done, no work on the cars is done by him except adding gas or oil. We see him at local car shows (with the hood closed) but never when the T club goes on tour. Probably just as well, some of the members get heartburn when a T has a Pinto engine.

I can see both people's points of view. Not everyone is capable of working on a Model T or has time to do all the work. That is one of the reasons that the "properly restored" cars bring big money. Those guys who have money but not skills compete by having the best car. It's not a bad thing, I would do the same if I had unlimited funds. Then there are people who do all the work and then can't bring them selves to drive the car afterwards. Again, I can see the reasons but would never want to be counted in that category.

The premise of this thread was to determine a ballpark figure for each year and condition of Model T. I don't think you can count a car sold 3 or 4 years ago as a valid example. Prices are dependent on the actual car being bought or sold, the buyer's needs, the seller's needs, all sorts of factors. One guy's opinion of a restored car is often vastly different from another's. Even the definition of what is correct is a moving target with many definitions.

Royce

As Brent alluded to most hobbies cost money. I like to play with model T's. I accept that it will cost me money and I don't expect to get my investment back. Once in a rare while you do, most times you don't. Then again very few golfers break even either. So I will stay at it for as long as I am able. Also I don't think I am the only one who pays retail and sells wholesale!!
My advice; buy the car you really like, you can't take it with you and the kids don't need it!

Here is what I think is the truth about the price of a model T.

1.Most people are not interested nor would want to buy a model T.

2. A Model T is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

3. For the seller, the object is to get the most he/she can.

4. For the buyer, the object is to get the best car for the lowest price.

5. Because there are some unscrupulous sellers, the buyer must be armed with as much information as possible concerning the car he in which he is interested.

6. It is almost impossible to receive from a sale, the cost of restoration.

7. Some people paint and alter their cars to suit their own wants and desires, and they are not authentic.

6. If the buyer is looking for authenticity, it is better to consider only those features which are authentic, and consider any other features as not worth buying. that is if the paint is not right, consider lowering your bid the cost of a paint job etc. Some buyers are interested in an interesting car whether or not authentic, and for that type of buyer, the bid might be higher than for one who is a "purist"

With these in mind, any sale of a Model T is like an auction. It is worth whatever the buyer is willing to pay for it!!!!!

Norm

Les,

Would you please e-mail me off line with a way to contact the 1915 Centerdoor owner or so I can send you my contact information and you can pass it along to him? We have had a couple of folks ask about where Centerdoor upholstery can be obtained and it sounds like he would probably know.

You can just click on my name to send an e-mail. Thanks.

Hap 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Ford Model S Runabout

R.M.

I enjoyed reading your description of the '15 touring on eBay. I am the guy who pushed the "Buy-It-Now" button. :-)

It was not easy to spend that much sight unseen, but I spent a lot of time on the phone with the owner and he seemed to be representing the car fairly. Even after reviewing MANY high resolution photographs I still broke out in a cold sweat after I "Pushed the Button".

What it boiled down to was that the price seemed good, and I wanted a brass "T". And I am ever so glad that I did. After a few minor repairs the car is running strong and reliable, and I'm having the time of my life with it. Sorry I snagged it out from under you :-)

If you click on my profile you can see a picture of my car, I'm very happy with it...

Curt.

I agree with Norman, most people would not even want my car. It's something that gets in your blood and stays. I would never sell it, as a matter of fact, when I get it done to my satisfaction, I'm considering starting another. Mine will never be for show and tell, just look decent and not be afraid to get a little mud on a tire. Driving them and having fun is what it's all about. You'll never find a better learning place than this forum either. My thanks to all who have helped me.
Mike

Lookin' good, Curt! You're in for a bunch of fun with that car.

Mike.

Curt,
That car looks great! Wish mine was that far along!
Norman said some very good things, and said them elequontly (yeah, I'm pretty sure it's misspelled)And Vince supplied some good "ballpark" figures--which of course will be high in some locations, and low in others. Drivable Model T's are definately a niche market, we gotta be crazy prefering to drive a car like a T (ain't it great?). I also understand the "restoration" definitions--I used to do them professionally & few people understand what a true restoration requires (fit, finish, function), but a correctly done T sure drives like a dream, and often starts "on the compression" faithfully.
T'ake care,
David D.

PS,
Curt,
Are those Firestone Wheels? They sure look snappy! My local fellow T nut friend lloyd just finished his '16 roadster with Firestones.
T'
David D.

To add a little to this discussion, I'd just like to say that I own 2 T's. One that I restored myself (1916 Touring/Truck, Old Henry) and another that I bought outright in great condition (1926 Tudor). I enjoy driving both cars. The 1916 was bought for $2000 and has $3000 worth of parts and outside machine work in it. I'd guess that it probably has $5000 worth of my labor in it. I'd value this car at between $12,000 and $15,000; but, its not or ever will be for sale. It is literally a member of the family.

As for the 1926, I paid $13,000 because my wife wanted a closed car for winter driving. That may seem a little high; but, I've never had to do one thing to this car other than change oil and add water and gas. I treat it just like any of my modern cars. It could be a show car (it was for the previous owner). I just like to drive T's for that "jump back to an earlier time" feel.

My point is that I enjoy both cars and must admit that I enjoy the Older open car much more because of the smiles that it brings while tooling down the road. Both cars have a value to me that is not really related to the investment.

As a side note:

I work with restoration of much higher priced cars than we are talking about in this discussion. The quarter million dollar guys have all of same issues that are being discussed here. One guy that I've built a radiator for, spent $250,000 on a Pierce and is throwing another $200,000 at it to "make it right". He may or may not ever drive the car. Another guy that I know has a Winton that he drives all over the country. They're both having fun, just at a different level than most of us.

PS, RV I haven't talked the guy that we share a space at Hershey with yet. I'll let you know where we've been moved to as soon as I know.

Tour America,
JC

If you really look at the facts - More and more of these ORIGINAL cars are being taken off the market for good by rodders. More and more cars are becoming more and more "aftermarket reproductions" by percentage of original parts.

It follows, that there are fewer and fewer original (meaning basic drive train and sheetmetal) model t's in existence.

These "drivers" as we call them are and will become worth more and more as time progresses. Its just a matter of time when the average car buff gets bored with the muscle cars and developes an keen interest in the model t again.

I think our cars are a good investment in that they are appreciating very slowly, they are not depreciating, and they serve as entertainment as well.

In addition they cost almost nothing to keep (protect) and insure, unlike a 64 mustang.

Vince

David D.,

My wheels are not Firestones, they are marked Hayes.

Does anyone know if Hayes was a supplier for Ford, or are my wheels aftermarket?

Curt.

Curt,

NIce looking 1915.

Yes, Hayes supplied wheels, rims etc.

If you check out Bruce McCalley's on line encyclopedia at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/index.htm and scroll down to the Wheels or click on http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels you will find a lot of info on the wheels.

Of primary interest to you would be that the different demountable wheel parts are not necessarily interchangeable. Bruce covers that and the summary is: after the introduction of the Ford wheels the parts were interchangeable. Before that they sometimes were not even interchangeable even when made by the same company. So when you change your rims -- be sure to check that they are all the same -- and then you know they will fit on any of the wheels you have or if some are of one style and another is of another style -- just keep the correct rims with the wheels they fit. If you want more details -- let us know.

While Ford did not offer the demountable rims on the tourings until late 1919, for any car that will be driven much, they are very handy if you ever have a flat.

And if you would do me a favor and look on the heel panel of your car (where the heel of your feet hits when you sit in the seat) both front and back and see if there is a letter embossed into the panel. Also if you see a body number (on the 1914-22 open cars it is often located either on the front seat rail in front of the gas tank lid if the car has a wooden seat frame or on the right front floor board riser if the seat has the metal frame.)

If you haven't seen Bruce McCalley's book "Model T Ford" it contains much of the same information that is on Bruce's on-line encyclopedia but has lots of good pictures to illustrate the text.

Hap 1915 Model T Touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Ford Runabout in SC

Curt,
Ah, I did think the felloes were a bit small for Firestones. Still, great looking car, and the wheels do set it off. I suspect you have period aftermarket wheels--something the original purchaser could have chosen, or the dealer put on. Remember that some dealers even nickel plated the brass to "update" the cars.
T'ake care,
David D.

I went to an aution on Saturday morning with the hopes of picking up a 1923 touring car. It turned out to be a 1920, with a starter - the car was a driver, some dings and dents and a rough radiator. It sold for $8300 - frankly I thought it was really only worth $5700.00 so guess who doesn't own the T ??? I'm still looking !!!

For those of us with Model T's already, it's nice to see the prices moving up. I have always thought the prices were too low, but I never complained when in the market to buy. Since they are a finite commodity and no more will be made, I believe the prices will continue to rise as they get more scarce, so get em while you can. I'm hopeful that all original Model T's will soon become as valuable as the Hot Rods have become, so they will be less desireable for conversion to Hot Rods. Sort of a Catch 22 though. The originals only become more scarce when they are destroyed or cease to be originals. Jim Patrick

I was at an auction last Fall and a 23 touring wit a ratty top, unknown oil covered engine, poor aftermarket upholstery that was loose and floppy, went for $8500. Another T'er and I thought it was worth maybe $6-7000. The brass radiator ?16 roadster with unknown engine, leaky radiator, fair top, fair upholstery that I thought would go for much more than the 23 went for $7500. My 23 has under 2000 miles on overhaul, Ruckstall, new top, new upholstery, wire wheels. What should I insure it for? I've got about $7000 in it.
Noel

I try to find cars on eBay near me that owned by someone who is disgusted with the car and simply wants rid of it. It is his only collectable car. Usuakky the car exoires with no bids and meanwhile I call him and discuss the car with him. After the auction closes, if I want the car I do not offer him less but raher simply ask what he is willing to do price-wise as I feel I am unwilling to enter into a bantering type of negotiating. This way I feel I get a car at a reasonable price, problems abound to be sure but at least I am starting off with a bit less invested than if I bought at a collector type dealer or perhaps an auction.

Don Winter

R.M. I asked the same question a while back and someone e-mailed me a good answer. So if you want, e-mail me and I'll e-mail back the "price sheet" that someone else had written for him and 'us.' It's similar to what Vince said above, but in more detail.

As far as the restoration goes, apparently, other people have to deal with semantics too. In our hobby the word 'restoration' is butchered. In churches its 'revival', and in health care its 'holistic' and 'core' exercises. They all mean different things to different people. And in a court of law, watch out, they use a law dictionary which can define words differently than Webster’s!

Personally, I think e-bay has to some degree affected our hobby in a negative way. E-bay is like gambling. The bid gets higher, and the 'so called' value gets higher when in reality it's just a toy for a bunch of guys and gals. We use it to socialize, we use it as therapy and if we choose to sell it, we buy another one. I’m back in the hobby after 6 years and I am surprised at the cost of parts with our major suppliers. I love this forum, but I miss the good old days where we only had swap meets, club meetings, the club magazine and a few suppliers to buy sell and trade, buy sell and trade……

I bought my `24 tourer for the buy-it-now price off Ebay 2 years ago. It was unrestored, but a good runner nevertheless. We got it home and spent 14 weeks driving around the farm, mostly teaching our daughters how to drive and then registered it for the road. Even if we did pay too much for it according to some we would have probably still been looking had we not acted. Instead we've had two of the most wonderful years with a car that has become part of the family.

Chris, you said it best! Sometimes it seems the price of the T and concern for originality has over shadowed the hobby of the T, the family bonding and the blessings it brings. God bless. Bob

The debate continues as to how many $$$$ a given T is woth but the ugly or beautifull (take your pick ) truth is the value is what buyers are willimg to pay & sellars are willimgto accept at any given moment.

Edward R. Levy

I think anything is worth what you can get for it if you need the money quickly.
Here's a related true story. I have a friend who has an original '65 Mustang wood steering wheel. Before the reproductions came on the scene he was approached a few times with pretty high offers for it. His philosophy was that no matter what he was offered, it had to be worth more because everyone was trying to steal it from him. Now the Mustang craze is pretty much past, there are zillions of repro steering wheels available and he still has the thing buried somewhere. Maybe someone will toss it into his coffin when he dies. So what's it worth?

An early car in mint condition with everything stock and no rust could be around $30,000. A later car which runs well, looks good, and has a few modifications, around $10,000. A dissasembled, but complete set of rusty, but useable parts, under $2,000.

You will have to use some judgement as to what you will pay or take as an offer. If you are not experienced, take along someone who has been around T's to help you decide.

Norm

I use the "gold book" online. I think it is conservative, so feel if a car is less or equal to its price, the car may be a "good buy". I love looking, however cannot afford to do anything, unless I would sell one of my current cars. I still like the "chase" of looking at cars and dreaming. Following is the link to "manheim gold book".

http://www.manheimgold.com/

Rob, 13 T touring, 23 T tudor, 13 Buick touring

I have also used Manheimgold in the past. I find that the Goldbook is a pretty good guide on most cars, however, on some cars it is totally out of line. Either way under valued, or way over. As a comparison, I occasionally look at NADA, although I find that their prices are usually over inflated.

Using either one of these guides, you must keep in mind that alot of the pricing comes from auctions which have a tendency to over inflate what whould be a private party average transaction.

Also these guides are only considering vehicles that are original equipment. They do not take into account modifications that may have been made. When considering modifications, I usually deduct from the asking price the cost of returning the vehicle back to original.

Tom L