I'm exploring options here. I do not like the fact that Rocky Mountain brakes don't work when wet or in reverse. I have been going backward through the forum and found a post that said something about 56 Chevy brakes, but the specifics were not there. I have heard that Nash/Metro brakes fit (metric).

Everyone is too scared to sell a bolt on kit, and I don't feel like re-creating the disc brakes I made once before. They won't look right on this car. I'd like conventional drum style brakes every time I want to stop, not just when it's a happy sunny day with no worries. I see electric brakes in trailer catalogs that would fit, but I'm not sure how that would work in the real world. I also want to add drum brakes to the front axel - the re-enforced front axel.

Any ideas?

Tim,

Nash Metropolitan brakes would not be metric since they were made by Austin of England.

I too am interested in internal shoe brakes - primarily because I'm cheap and I "fiddle" fairly well, but also because I think Rockys are UGLY and would look terrible on my Speedster.

I'll pass on front brakes - anything out at the rear wheels will be a quantum leap from that joke inside the transmission, and plenty enough to suit me.

Seth

With all the trouble I've been hearing about the aftermarket brake shoes, I think I'll make my own lined shoes.

I've got a small master cylinder I'm thinking might mount similar to the stop light switches--Off the side movement of the brake pedal. That or off the cross-frame lever. Nothing on paper but I do have small wheel cylinders too. Just adding parts to the "might use someday" bin.

I've had excellent results with Dan McEachern's small drum outside brakes. Been using them since 1975. Dan doesn't sell them anymore, but Chaffin does sell the small drum Bennett brakes. I'm sure with some fiddling they can be made to work well. Also, from time to time some original small drum brakes pop up on ebay. Usually, the originals are better than the repops. Also, I believe Dan will sell the mechanism forward of the wheels from his AC Brakes, which can be easily adapted to any brake.

For the big-drum setup, many of the British cars from the 50s & 60s may have rear brake shoes that would be good candidates if they are 11". Morris Minor, MGA, MGB, TR2-TR4. The Minor and the MGB rode on 14" wheels, the others on 15". The rears are always single-leading shoe (one self-energized shoe regardless of rotation direction) and might be narrow enough to fit without modification.

Seth

Some thoughts on T brakes;
1.I know guys who have modified 10" more modern brake drums (I believe this is where the '56 Chev brake drums fit in). The advantage is they are cast iron which is a vastlly superior material for a drum brake then the steel drums we have which "glaze up". The ones I have seen are of course on 26-7 cars and use the cast iron drum with the lined shoe AND a outside "rocky mountain type" brake band. If you keep the inside lining then you have a brake that works both forward and backward and is somewhat more rain resistant.
2. I have lined shoes and small drum original AC brakes on my '13. It has provided a acceptable braking action. Once I got caught in "mexican overdrive" when my Universal brand 2 speed in the driveshaft hopped into neutral on a 2-3 mile long downgrade. The brakes slowed the car right down and let me get back into gear.
3 I had a fast speedster with rockies. It was absolutely terrifying in the rain and not much better in the dry. You could lock up the rear wheels with no problem, it still wouldn't stop!!
Conclusions: stopping the back wheels from turning on a T is quite do-able. Stopping a T speedster with rear wheel brakes is a real crap-shoot. If it is more or less stock it is probably half safe, if it is fast then I will only build one with front wheel brakes. My new speedster has a Model A front axle with split wishbone and it is getting front disc brakes. Of course it is getting the new 5 main block.
In my opinion the only real solution beyond driving extra defensively (assume you can't stop well and the other guy doesn't know it or care) is front wheel brakes and all that entails.

I have Nash Metro brakes in hand for a conversion. I mocked up the setup using the 11" metro drums. It seemed to be doable with some other mods to allow the whole assembly to fit.
Have you considered Model A brakes? You can transfer the hardware from an A back plate to the big drum back plates. Model A is 11". Adding juice cylinders to the A would be a simple option. The cast iron Metro drums are my choice. Haven't decided on the final design.

Front brakes concern me. I would like to consider them as a possibility. Vector diagrams have been shown here on the forum and down hill braking is a crapshoot.However:

If one wheel "happens" onto sand, wet spot, ice, gravel, etc, I fear the braking tire will "snatch" the steering and could cause a course change. This is due to the distance [lever] from the tire patch on the ground and the spindle. Modern cars have the ball joints, etc set at an angle to center on the road patch and present no "lever" when the traction differs between L & R sides. However, Rick the Graybeard sure uses them on his speedster without a complaint.

BTW where has Rick been hiding??

Noel

Les,

I agree with you regarding replacing the drums but I hadn't thought about the glazing thing. My concern was strength (distortion).

In the T setup there is one shoe that contacts 80-90% of the drum. If switched to a two shoe arrangement, that drops considerably. With two shoes, not only will the contact pressure go up, the loading of the drum will try to "egg shape" the thing.

Up until a few years ago, it was considered acceptable for front-drive vehicles to have drum brakes on the rear. Wheel diameters have gotten bigger. I have a gut feeling that something modern and available in the salvage yards (cheap!) would do the job. With all my free time....

Nash Metropolitan, Morris Minor, or other English car parts are getting mighty pricey these days, and never were close at hand.

Seth

I will not sell them, suggest you use them, OR TRADE THEM.

Noel
I don't think I would be too concerned about the steering mechanism aspect. In my view the real issue is rolling the axle under. I think the axle itself is probably strong enough especially considering the limited amount of traction you will get with the skinny tires. A person might want to consider making kingpins one size bigger, although I doubt it is neccessary. With a new wishbone that fits to both the top and bottom that part can probably be dealt with. Next issue is the attachment to the crankcase. I have thought about making a bolt in crossmember for this purpose. There were several after market 4 wheel brake sets offered in the era. I have tried to borrow a set from a fellow with the eye to making a copy. No luck yet.

Paul,

No worries about drum warpage or brake fade with that setup!

They should come in real handy with that new engine you are building.

When finished, not only will you have a nicer car - you'll have a wooden spoke endurance fixture! :-)

The picture above explains why you drive your car as much as you do - and why mine is the garage queen!

Seth

I Have seen ads for Technicore brakes in the early '90's Vintage Ford Magazine....Not cheap, in 1993, listed at 765.00. They are (or were) hydraulic,self energizing internal shoe drum brakes, with rectangular shaped wheel cylinders. Very neat. Small drum and large available, in 1993. All my T friends look at me with a blank expression when I ask them about these...I'm sort of a newbie and all these local T guys are "lifers'....Nobody has heard of Technicore Brakes. They were out of Mass. Any info, guys? As an aside, I saw a speedster at the Bakersfield swapmeet that had motorcycle disc brakes front and rear. Very neatly done, and almost unnoticeable.

Jeff

Les makes my point quite nicely. I will go on furthur to say that the stock setup works just fine on a Model T, if you drive a Model T the way it was meant to be driven. I can lock up the rear wheels on the 1916 with a stock transmission brake without any trouble. I've had it skidding on ice and rolling on gravel coming down the side of a mountain. Once the wheels are locked up, its all guts and driving skill to get it stopped.

The trouble isn't stopping the wheels. Its the friction between a 3" footprint of rubber, with a light-weight vehicle above it, and the road. That doesn't change, no matter how you stop the wheel from rotating.

The only solutions are wider tires or adding the braking to the front wheels; so that, you double the stopping friction with the road. I've never skidded the 26; but then, its a heavier sedan on wider tires. As has been mentioned, you will need to beef up the front suspension if you want to add brakes to the front wheels. I'd go with the cycle setup, if that's the direction your thinking. All of the parts are matched all ready; so, you don't need to re-invent the wheel, so to speak.

Best of Luck and Tour America,
JC

Driving a T the way it was designed is not an option for most of us now. The days of muddy unpaved roads, and not another car around for miles are pretty much over. I'm not old enough to remember the dirt covered main roads, but I do remember way back when people were courteous and kind to the antique auto driver. Now that friendly wave is only made up only of one finger. We NEED outside brakes, because the jerk that pulls out in front of us and stands on his modern brakes doesn't know and doesn't care how a T is supposed to be driven.

And, it is nice to be able to use a brake that you don't have to "pump".

Nicer yet to use one that doesn't load the running gear.

Best of all, you can stop if something between the drum in the transmission and the wheels decides to disintegrate.

I can lock up the rear wheels on my light car - sure. That doesn't mean that the brakes are adequate, in my opinion.

Seth

I use Rocky Mountains on my 25 touring with 30x3.5 clinchers and they work well when dry and going forward. I used them on my speedster for a while and found that like Seth, I could lock the wheels but not necesarily stop quickly. I came across a set of Nash Metro brakes converted to a T and have run them for several years now with a far greater degree of comfort. The 8" drums are not obtrusive and most casual observers don't particularly notice them. Of course anyone who knows anything about a T knows they aren't "right". I replaced the front wishbone with an A unit that I split and anchored to the side frame rails. As the wishbone grips the top and bottom of the T axle, I don't worry about twisting it up under the pan. Several years of driving in all sorts of conditions and roads, I am a believer in 4 wheel brakes on speedsters or other T's that may be overly light in the rear.

If I lived away from the cities in the west where the next car won't be seen for another 10+ miles, T brakes would be great. Living with a million other people, brakes need to work. Go is good, stop is mandatory.

Walt

In five years I have locked the brakes twice.

Paul

In the T with the brake in the transmission, when the brake is applied quickly the torque on the brake drum does nothing but slow down the engine. It can't do anything to slow down the car until the driveline winds up - and it is flexible to say the least!

If your foot keeps the same pressure on the pedal, as soon as the driveline is wound up the rear wheels lock up, if the car is light.

The "performance" issue is lack of ability to modulate the stopping torque at the wheels.

At the brake drums, even operated mechanically, control would have to improve. Add hydraulic actuation and it improves further.

Then use a disc where the pads are not self-energized at all and you have the best control. Self-drying too! Paul's probably redefines driving a T.(and riding in one too!)

I hope I never drive my car hard enough to need front brakes because I'd have a hard time replacing the wishbone with control arms that pivot off the frame.

My thoughts.

Seth

Walt, could you post some photos?

Seth,
The T is quite top heavy, and if you go very fast around curves, you will be "going around a corner on two wheels". That was actually an expression used for describing fast drivers over 50 years ago, and it is true. The next step after two wheels is to roll over. And, by the way, if you were to apply the transmission brake while on two wheels, you would find the differential action would cause you to lose your brakes!! The Rocky mountain brakes are a great improvement by keeping braking pressure on both wheels whether or not on the ground. Also along the same line, If you put brakes on the front wheels, you might find stopping quicker in a straight line, but if you are turning a corner, you lose control of the steering. The best thing to do when driving a T is to drive the way Henry intended it to be driven.
Norm

Norm,

The only two-wheeling I like to do is on my dirtbikes and I like both wheels on the ground. I'm not driving like that. I'm extremely cautious. I have never driven on wet pavement. If I don't like the traffic I'm in, I turn. I have driven in the dark twice.

I want auxiliary brakes and I don't want Rockys. Rockys look to me like something that belongs in a sawmill, not on my car. I don't want Paul's superior-to-anything rear brakes either. They look to me like they belong on the front wheel of a CBR, not on my car.

Driving my car where I do and when I do is as good as Henry could expect.

Seth

Seth, how much "wind up" do you think is possible in a T drive train front the tranmssion brake rearward. I suspect it can't be much over a quarter revolution of the rear wheels. With an outside tire diameter of 30" 1/4 turn is less than two feet. At 30 mph (44 ft/sec) two feet is 0.05 sec. So I don't see where driveline windup is an issue.

Norm, why do you say "If you put brakes on the front wheels, ..., but if you are turning a corner, you lose control of the steering." What causes loose of control of the steering?

David,

I don't know. Drive one with brakes at the rear wheels instead of the transmission - then decide for yourself if flexibility of the driveline might be a bad idea. I haven't and I think it is.

Seth

The front brakes will do two things that are bad for the steering. One is if you lock the front wheels, the car will not respond to the steering wheel. This is true of any car. The other is that it tends to give you "Negative castor". This is what you experience when you back up and the wheel whips out of your hand. Only thing when it happens going forward at a high speed while applying the brakes, you might go off the road or make a sudden U turn!
Norm

Whats wrong with adding an equalizer if you need more braking action at the drums. If you can lock the tires, you are already going too fast.

I'm sure all of us know that locking up the brakes is not the best nor a desired way of stopping. I can't recall locking my hydraulic brakes on my speedster except when testing and a time or two on gravel when I quickly eased off. I like the hydraulics because they work on all four wheels and I can modulate the pressure as I wish up to the point of locking the wheels. I've not experienced any negative effect on the steering while braking but certainly going negative on castor could get interesting. My front axle doesn't go there with the modified A wishbone.

Pictures are not an option right at the moment but I'll try to get some and post later.

Walt

Here is what I did. My truck has a Warford and I was wondering what to do if it went into neutral while I was driving it. The TT has 12 inch drums and the hand brake is quite effective. I normally use it more than the foot brake.

I should mention, since they are internal, they work in the rain as well as in reverse.

Norman
Locking up the front wheels is NOT as bad as locking up the back wheels. If you lock up the front wheels and the back wheels are still turning you will continue in a straight line. If you lock up the back wheels the car wants to turn end for end. That is why early ABS systems only worked on the rear brakes. Lincolns and T birds had rear wheel ABS available starting in 1969.
The negative caster is a valid concern and that is why you need to rework the wishbone and it's attachment so it CAN NOT happen.
On a modern car something like 60-70% of braking comes from the front brakes, which is why they have bigger disks, pads and calipers

Didn't I read that the early editions of the Rocky's worked in reverse as well as forward? And if that's the case, why was the design changed? And why can't the current design be modified back to original?

Sorry, I forgot to add this...
In my humble opinion, I think you're better off locking the back wheels instead of the front.

Front wheels locked = NO STEERING CONTROL-START PRAYING

Rear wheels locked = Ability to counter-steer and hopefully control the slide

Bill,

I have to disagree. When the rear wheels lock, you are up $%(# creek without a paddle. I don't want any wheel skidding that I can't steer.

This is the reason that the best tires should always go on the rear wheels - regardless of which wheels are driven.

Countersteer when the rear end breaks loose? I think it's a little late for that! If you've ever made a panic stop in a light pickup truck with no ABS and nothing in the bed - you'd believe me.

Seth

Technicore brakes was a rear wheel hydraulic setup was made by a man in southeast Massachusetts. Maybe Tim can come in and help me with his name, I believe they were made up of VW parts. They were an excellant product, I know several people who had them and loved them. This was not a large company, but one hobbyist who developed a product for his own use then decided to go into production on a part time basis more to help fellow Model T people than to get rich. What happened?? The liability insurance to protect him cost more per set of brakes than it cost to make the brakes. That's why they were pricy. Finally the agravation of the insurance just wasn't worth it. Don Lang would know the man's name and if someone could get any more information.

Bill, I am with you on the lockup issue. On my truck I often feather my emergency brake only on black ice to have some control of the steering. You can always turn into a slide. Lock up the fronts on black ice, and your front will slide away from the crown in the road with no control of steering.
Paul

You'd think the T brakes are unuseable after reading these posts. Maybe it's just my car, but the 26 foot and handbrakes seem quite sufficient....and they work in the wet and in reverse. I can easily stop in a few metres if I have to. The limitation is the amount of rubber to road contact and no braking system will overcome that.

Less, I am not sure of the reason early Lincolns used ABS on the rear only but I can guess the reason. Had an 87 Toyota van that had a mechanical system in the rear to decrease rear braking under hard brake. They were short, with the engine between the seats. Under hard braking the Mass of weight would transfer to the front, if you did not let up on the rear brake someway ( let the wheels turn on the pavement) the light back end of the van would have pivoted around the heavy front. ABS would have done the same thing for ford. With out front brakes the problem is gone. Just my thoughts!!
Paul

Roger Lee made the brakes your thinking of, he was a close friend of my family for a long time. I will have to ask my grandfather, but I think he custom made the wheel cyl's. I know he held patents on all the parts.

Stock T brakes are ok, but it takes a little planning to stop without destroying the band or drum. The reason I want better brakes is not because of my driving. It's the other idiots around me. I can pretty much tell you exactly when someone will pull out in front of me from a side street. They see me coming from 100 yards away, try to identify, realize it's an old car, count to ten, then stomp on the gas and pull a left turn across my path. By the time they decide to go, I'm 20ft or less away and I have to work the rocky mountains hard to avoid ramming them. It happens daily here. The new linings the RM brake company is using now is far superior to the older webbed lining, but still have issues in reverse or when wet.

WoW, I'll bet Tim would like to find a set of those brakes. They must be real rare as you never see any up for sale. Probably like some old and rare stuff they are worth more today than when they were new.
Tim would probably be willing to pay a premium price if he could locate a set.

I'd like to find TWO sets, one for each end of my car. I heard rumours of a set kicking around in an old guys barn near here, but they haven't turned up yet. I also found an article tonight that my grandfather wrote for our local club's paper. he said that Roger made the wheel cyl's curved to match the small drum without hitting, and there were a couple different linings sold. One did not work well and they were replaced with a newer kind that solved the fading problem. Funny how things turn up, I was digging through old club papers seeking material to re-print when I stumbled on it.

Bill & Paul
Have it your way! Of course you don't want locked up brakes. But a front wheel lockup is way easier to recover from than a rear wheel one for me!!
I guess I just spent 43 winters driving on icy roads in the frozen North.

Thanks, Sherm. You answered my question on the Technicore brakes. I suspected something like that. Well, now I know!

Jeff

The first two pictures are with 67 Ford Mustang rear brakes adapted to a T axle.


The next two pictures are 1980's Oldsmobile.


The master cylinder is a early VW with a remote reservoir

Those drums look wide to me, did you need to do anything to the axels to make everything fit properly?

When you adapt to the modern backing plate you set it to accommodate for the wider drum. The rear axle stays at stock width. You do have to be careful not to lock the rear tires during hard stops. You also need to make sure that the T behind you dose not follow to close.

Richard, do you have a digital photo of the Mustang setup with the wheel off?

Would like to visit with
paul on the Honda brakes. 918-633-4800

John,

I e-mailed him this thread this morning and told him you wanted to discuss his brakes.

Seth

I need to do a brake job on my 31 Model A. The Model A parts guys say you have to have a swedge cutting tool to take the old drums off and must swedge the new drums on the hubs. The machine shop guys say it can't be done because the shoulders on the wheel studs the parts guys sell is not long enough and NO ONE swedges anymore. Any suggestions before I tear this appart? I have ordered new drums, shoes, bearings, etc. and am ready to go. I don't want to tear into this until I know the truth.

God bless and have a great weekend.

Contact Bert's Model A Center in Colorado. He has an extensive collection of new and used Model A parts and can do the swedgeing job for you. His staff is very knowledgeable on this subject and will do it correctly.....Michael Pawelek
www.modelastore.com

Find another machine shop. The repro Model A studs have longer shoulders specifically for the thicker cast iron drums.

There may only be a few folks who swedge the studs but that is a few more than "no one".

Here's a picture of Metropolitan brakes on a Model T:

http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/mtfcsd/Mechanical/Odd_items/P5150126.JPG

I talked with an older gentleman at chickasha and he had a T reaerend 26/7 that he doubled the backing plate and added the internals from a model A they fit he said with no problem and he has had them on his t for years. He also said there was no need to really machine anything and to just look at them he appeared to be correct. All the parts from the A seemed to fit perfectly. I wish i would have taken pictures but did not.

Does anyone know of a good rebuilder for a 1931 Model A steering box? Mine is in need of repair.

Thanks.

Ask on the two Model A forums....Michael Pawelek

Here is a photo of the Master Cylinder that Roger Lee used in his kits. They are still available new for $50 to $60 and were made by three manufacturers. They were off a Toyota or Honda, but I've misplaced the details. Do a website search for Master Cylinder and you can find it.

I had a mechanically actuated disc setup that I salvaged from a skid-steer six wheeled swamp buggy. The rotors were 8" and the calipers used a 4" lever and cam. They would have been ideal for a speedster (or most any driver). The whole assembly was lost along with many of my V12 Lincoln parts due to Hurricane Charley a couple of years ago. I think I will go on the scrounge and see if I can scare up another setup like that. When I get my T project going they would be a perfect and unobtrusive way to get more brakes than a T would ever need.