Inside oil line

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Inside oil line
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael J McCrary on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 09:52 pm:

I have both inside and outside oilers, I know the outside one does not work very well till the oil is warmed up some (mag post type) I like to use 10w30 oil. I know the dippers probably remain full after shut down. My question is, How long does it take the internal oiler to get enough oil flowing as to not cause any damage? I'm talking about starting in 20 - 30 degree temperatures. Thanks
Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roland Palmatier -- Durham, NH on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 01:14 am:

Mike,

I prefer 5w30 for just the concern you mention and that is also what the Vintage Ford article recommended 4-5 years ago.

Regards, Roland


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 11:00 am:

Roland, do you run 5W30 all year long? Or do you change to a summer oil?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 11:21 am:

The outside oiler on my car pumps 15W-40 oil at 55F using the electric starter powered by a six volt battery.

But, I think 15W-40 is too heavy - terrible free neutral until the oil warms!

I'd switch to 10W-30 but only after going through my engine and sealing up all the oil leaks. I never drive below 50F so I really don't feel the need for 5W-30.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Weir on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 11:58 am:

Michael; I use 5w30 in my '24. There is plenty of viscosity when it is cold and when it is warmed up it acts like 30. Free neutral is quite good and it is not uncommon in the late summer and early fall to reach 110º F where I live.

In fact I could use a little of that right now, it was 21 this morning and 15 expected tomorrow.

Sincerely

Jim Weir


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael J McCrary on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 01:10 pm:

Thanks guys
I think I will switch to the 5w30. That still doesn't answer my original question though. With that weight oil and 30 degree temperature, how long before the oil actually runs to the front and into the engine? Thanks
Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Blewster on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 01:43 pm:

Hey Michael,

The oil question is one that's sure to raise more than one opinion here!

I wouldn't worry about damage to the front bearings during startup because of a lack of flow from that outside oiler. I consider mine to be sort of a backup to the internal rig. It came from Mr. Ford's factory with only that inside one. The twirlin' and slidin' engine parts are bathed in a heckofa well stirred oil mist as soon as that flywheel's turning, anyway. ("Mist" doesn't feel like an adequate word, having bumped the starter once with the transmission cover off. Never again!) The synthetic oils are said to be "stickier" than the standards, staying put better during shut down and flowing better to boot, so that's what I use.

Changing the oil often enough to keep junk from blocking the oil line(s) is the best way to keep the engine internals healthy.

Only my opinion, though.

John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roland Palmatier -- Durham, NH on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 04:50 pm:

Mike,

To time the oil to the front, remove a couple of lower pan bolts when the engine is cold, let the oil drain throughly, start the engine, note the time for the oil to start to flow, and replace the bolts.

I installed a transmission cover scoop and I can see in the clear feed line the oil flowing after 5 seconds at fast idle. Since it is cold, it takes another 10 to 15 seconds to get through the filter and down to the front of the engine and that is with a 1/2 inch ID line. I like it in reference to "cold Starts", because when the engine stops, the filter drains oil into the front of the pan, puddling in the dippers.

I would guess that the little internal line might take several minutes to run oil to the front of the engine. It is a good question. Model Ts survive in spite of it.

Regards, Roland


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael J McCrary on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 05:33 pm:

Thanks all
I guess I worry needlessly, they worked for a very long time as they were. I'm sure they didn't sit because it was "cold" out. Even though it's winter, I would like to start it now and then and warm it up good. I love the sound even if it's too cold to drive lol. I'll change oil and wait till it gets at least 30 degrees though. It is a whooping 1 here today after a minus 1 night. Thanks for all the feedback
Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 05:53 pm:

Michael,

Instead of worry, why don't you just drain a cup or so of oil from the lower petcock then pour it back in before you start? It might not do anything but keep you from worrying, but it sure can't hurt anything.

I'd worry about your weather - it's 74F here!

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael J McCrary on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 07:02 pm:

Seth
Very good idea, that has never entered my sometimes shallow mind, Thanks
Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 07:25 pm:

Mike,

The only reason it ever entered my mind was because I have this huge "seperator" attached at the front of my engine - the outside oiler feeds it. It probably holds two cups of oil and I drain it from time to time looking for "bad news". Until I checked the hogshead oiler output when cold, I decided I'd better add oil to fill the dip troughs rather than wait for this reservoir to fill.

Now I know it won't take even ten seconds to fill, but I add a cup or so of oil to make up that I "sampled". Then I don't sweat anything - the whole point of enjoying the old T!

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 08:42 pm:

I have an outside oiler on my '10 which runs from the mag pick up down the right side of the motor to the oil filler opening in the timing gear cover. I added about 3" of brass tubing to the filler opening and soldered a fitting to it so I can take off the oil filler cap which fits into the extension and actually see the oil going into the front of the motor. I run straight 30W oil and by the time I switch from battery to mag after crank starting and get back to the front of the car there is already plenty of oil getting to the front of the motor. While I have never timed it I doubt it takes more than 10 seconds and I am sure the oil is getting therer a lot faster than I am. Hope that answers the question


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Houston on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 01:46 am:

We may need to reconsider the Model T oil question. From the Winter Clinic program.
Covered extensively from "Skinned Knuckles" magazine.

Diesel Motor Oil for Your Model T?

If you’re not using diesel motor oil in your Model T, there’s a good chance you’re not using the best oil for your T.

The latest and greatest oils, “SM” category were introduced in November 2004 and designated for most modern engines. However, it just may be that these oils are not the best for our beloved Model T Fords, because…

SM category Zinc content was reduced significantly to prevent damage to the new catalytic converters. Zinc is the important stuff that prevents engine damage on start up, particularly on lifters and cams.

Fortunately, there is diesel oil which can be used in both gasoline and diesel engines that retains the high level of Zinc formally used.

So, for the maximum protection of that new Stipe Cam, use oil with the designation shown below:

Pic


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Sutton on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 12:14 pm:

Mike,

On Thursday it was supposed to reach 55 here. I got home from work a little early right before it got dark. The T hadn't been out in a couple weeks but I had charged my cheater battery the day before and got 2 gallons of gas. It started on the 3rd crank and I went out with the top down. I don't have side curtains so the top doesn't do me much good.

After putting 5 more gallons in at the gas station and driving around until it was getting good and dark, I went home and put the car away. Told my wife that was the coldest 55 I ever experienced. She then told me the weather babe was full of it - it was 37 on our thermometer!

I only had a sweatshirt on. Go for it, you'll forget about the cold.

Craig


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke Chennell on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 01:56 pm:

The removal of zinc from oil has been a major problem on more modern (but not new) engines including pretty much anything built with flat tappets.

The zinc in the now-discontinued oils acted essentially as an extreme pressure additive to maintain adequate lubrication on the camshaft-to-tappet surfaces. Most new engines use roller tappets, which don't have enough pressure on them to be affected by the lack of zinc. In addition, most engines that have been broken in for a while usually don't see problems for a number of reasons.

I had a couple of friends that ran into this issue when building new engines, one a 409 Chevy and the other a 289 Ford. Both of them had their camshafts go flat within a few hours of start-up, and both had to rebuild their engines again. One wound up having to sleeve one cylinder that was scored because of all the debris. Camshaft manufacturers now reccomend using (of course) their break-in lubricant that they provide with the camshafts, and the use of an additional break-in additive. Most seem to be reccomending using a General Motors additive called EOS, available for a very reasonable cost from any GM dealer. Both of my friends rebuilt their engines and used this stuff, and had no further problems. Both drive their cars a great deal.

Whether or not this is really an issue with Model T engines is something I question. With the relatively low valve spring pressures in a "T" engine, it doesn't seem to me that it really makes that big of a difference. Plus, how many Model Ts do you see with flat camshafts anyway? Chevy V-8s were fairly notorious for wiping out camshafts even when the oils still had zinc in them, and this only seems to have exacerbated a previously existing problem. And most of my experience seems to indicate that the people running into serious problems either A. have freshly rebuilt engines, or B. are using stronger-than-stock valve springs.

If you're really concerned about this, the GM EOS lubricant is probably the best solution. Oil is of course a hotly debated subject, but I still think using a thin lubricant - i.e. not 15w40 - is probably the best idea, especially given the Model T's multidisc clutch and splash oiling system. But that's just my opinion. Your mileage (and zinc content) may vary.

Luke Chennell


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke Chennell on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 02:01 pm:

Here's a link to Crane's official break-in instructions for their new camshafts. Keep in mind that these engines are usually running at least 200 pounds of valve spring pressure at full opening.

http://www.cranecams.com/pdf/548e.pdf

Luke Chennell


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chuck Hoffman on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 06:22 pm:

I have tried to distinguish the difference between EOS and STP, but don't see any obvious difference.........


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael J McCrary on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 07:17 pm:

It was not my intent to start a several times already discussed oil controversy, only to get an answer to a question I personally had never seen posted. I thank you all for replies. Oil must be like beauty, (It's in the eyes of the beholder) to each their own. Keep it clean and have a running machine.
Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth H. Todd on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 08:19 pm:

If you're concerned how the oil will flow when cold, drain a cupfull out and put it in a glass jar, put it in your freezer overnight and then see how it moves when you tip the jar.
Make sure you put a tight lid on the jar to keep Mama from getting riled at you.
Might not hurt to put a thermometer in the freezer also, so you know what temperature you're looking at.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 11:54 pm:

No freezer needed here tonight. Supposed to hit almost 30 below zero by morning. Be glad you don't have to crank your T to go out and chop open water for your cows or go milk and feed in that weather. Hey, Grady, remember trying to outwait your brothers or your dad so they would get the snow off the seat and get it warm before you went out to the necessary house before you went to bed? I thought so. I was the youngest so my next older brother and I usually went at the same time until I got to be ten or so. He would get the seat warm and then I would sit. We had a light in ours but there was little desire to sit and read when it was cold and the wind was whistling through the knotholes. (Times have changed. When I was a kid my gramma always tore the "Ladies pages" out of the Montgomery Ward catalog before she put it out in the outhouse so the boys wouldn't look through them and get ideas. I wonder what she would think of Victorias Secret on TV?) When we got back to the house my mother and my sister would go. Hopefully, the snow was all swept off the seat and it was warm for them. Some neighbors had a little heater stove in theirs. They had two girls and their dad would go out and build a little fire to warm it up in there for them. We got indoor plumbing when I was about 11 or 12 so I missed out on most of it in the winter. We had a little coal stove in our bathroom and later a little oil heater in there. We still used the outside one the first summer because my dad was afraid we would fill up the septic tank -- which was a steel tank he hauled home from a construction job -- but it didn't so then we used it year around. Those might have been the good old days but I'm glad I don't have to head for the outhouse before bed tonight.


My opinion is that any oil today is better than the best they had in the day. I run Shell Rotella in everything. 10-40 year around.

I'm rebuilding an engine for a guy in Phoenix. It is more a freshening than a full rebuild. I wasn't happy with the air flow I could get blowing through the front of the oil tube so I pulled the transmission, pulled the oil tube and took a look. Stuck about a quarter of an inch in--just far enough I couldn't see it--was a piece of hard gasket or shim or something that had been in there for years. It was shutting off the oil flow and was all full of band lint, a couple little pieces of unidentifiable metal, and two smaller pieces of the same hard-probably gasket-material. I ran a speedometer cable back up from the front and couldn't push it out, finally got in the opening of the tube with a small hook to pull the junk out and get it clean. Should be good now. I wonder how long that was in there?? The bearings are good so it was getting oil somewhere.

This is off this thread but I also charged the magnets with the coil ring laying on top of them. I'd never done it like that before. Not as good as taking them off, probably, but definitely better than it was before. Back together and running tomorrow or maybe Monday, I hope. This will be the first time in probably 50 or 60 years it had run and will be back in service in a truck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Harris on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 06:33 pm:

I wrote the engineers at Valvoline and asked them what the effect is there on Model T engines with the new standards in motor oils containing less zinc. I do not work for Valvoline or am I endorsing their products. You can decide for yourself what you want to use. The following is the reply that I received:

All Valvoline motor oils are still compatible to older engines, and will not cause any damages. The oil industry per ILSAC had to only decrease the levels of ZDDP (Zinc) in certain viscosity to meet new emission standards. The ILSAC rated oils still have an average of .085 levels of zinc. Testing has shown on standard OEM set ups that used mild camshafts will still get plenty of protection from the new rated oils. There is an exception when it comes to extreme aftermarket applications. If you have a high performance solid lifter set up with an aggressive cam then you will need to use a quality Racing Oil or Fleet Oil for break in and normal usage. These oils have an increased level of Zinc that will range from .14 to .16 and will provide plenty of protection.
The consensus in the industry is that the current chemical limits of the GF-4/SM category are still sufficient to protect all "street" engines, including older flat tappet roller engines. The engine tests required for a GF-4/SM product is just as severe as the older, higher ZDDP allowed category. For the special applications (aggressive cams, high HP racing motors, etc) where the customer needs more ZDDP protection, our NON-GF-4 products still contain the higher levels (such as VR-1 and "not street legal" racing).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 09:55 pm:

The model T's engine qualifies in "special applications" since the transmission is lubricated by the engine oil and the contact pressures are way higher in the transmission than in the engine.

The more ZDDP, the merrier, unless we're talking catalytic converters, IMO.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth H. Todd on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 11:30 am:

In the Valvoline statement it mentions "older flat tappet roller engines".
Wot the heck is that?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 12:25 pm:

ZDDP high pressure oil additives were first used in 1956 when SAE engineers added the requirement for 1957 model year new cars which had stronger valve springs which resulted in this requirement. The stronger valve springs were needed in the then new high compression / high performance engines.

At that time the newest original Model T engine was almost 30 years old and had never used ZDDP.

As Stan said, any oil available today is far better than was available when a Model T was new. If you feel you need high levels of ZDDP it is very still very high in oils marked "Racing" made by Valvoline, Quaker State, Brad Penn and many other brands.

My opinion is that standard grade oils in 5W-30 grade perform wonderfully in our cars so long as you change the oil every year or every 1000 miles, which ever comes first. With no oil filter it is very important to change the oil frequently. I had the transmission cover off my '15 over the weekend and the accesory oil screen was completely clogged with band material. This engine has about 500 miles on it and the oil has been changed once.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 12:34 pm:

I agree with you Royce. I think Valvoline makes a huge liability statement when they say "compatable to older engines and will not cause any damages."


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