When to install roof

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: When to install roof
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Murphy on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 05:28 pm:

26 Tudor - I need a roof on this car more than I need an interior. However, I would like to put in a new interior sometime, just not now. Is it easier to install a roof after the interior is done, or can I put the new roof on and install the interior in the future? I'm wondering primarily about how difficult it might make the headliner installation - if it would be easier to install without the roof on. Never done this before...

Thanks!

P.S. All the top wood is there, it's just a matter of the padding and top material.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave_Sosnoski on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 08:06 pm:

Matt,

To do it right the interior has to go in before the top goes on. There should be a little shelf that runs all the way around the inside of the roof wood. The side upholstery lays into this shelf first. Next comes the beading (strip of cord with fabric wrapped around it). This will trim off the seam between the headliner and side upholstery. On top of that goes the headliner. There was a narrow strip of thin poster board that when on top of that, then everything was tacked into that shelf - from the top. Once the headliner is installed, the top ribs are installed, then the top is put on. It's difficult to install the upholstery the right way after the top is on since you have to tack it down from the top!

Dave S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Murphy on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 08:42 pm:

Dave,

Thanks for the info.

Matt


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Belland on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 09:21 pm:

DAVE kudos on the explanation i've put a lot of interiors in a lot of different cars and so many people around my parts give me a crazy look when i tell them that's the way it was on some cars that's how i did my 24 coupe the headliner is flat on mine tight as a drum and not tacked to the bows anywhere. RAY


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave_Sosnoski on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 12:19 am:

Ray,

Thanks. I get asked this question a lot. Many are not happy when I tell them this is how it was done - especially when they just finished installing that nice new top!

Just to clarify something - the carboard I mentioned above is only a thin piece - not even as wide as the shelf in the wood. It doesn't run all the way across the roof.

Here is a photo I took today of an original 24 coupe. On the left is the side uphostery. On top of that is the cording, and on the right is a piece of headliner. On the very top under the rib is the cardboard strip.

Dave S. Top Installation


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Belland on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 11:05 am:

DAVE

Exactly correct in my opinion.Below are a couple photos of the cloth i installed in my car the colors etc.are not correct they were left over from another job and being 1/2 scotch i used them as it cost nothing i tend to be rough on my car and could not bear to use the 3/4 full bolt of original brown with mahogany pin stripe mind you cloth that resides in the attic as it has certain bragging rights. ( hope this dosen't tease you too much ) RAY


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Belland on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 11:11 am:

OOPS had trouble loading photo. RAY


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave_Sosnoski on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 11:31 am:

Ray,

I just had to go replace my keyboard - all the drool shorted it out!

Interresting - brown with a mahogany stripe. The sale literature states this is what was used, however all the cars and scraps of fabric I've seen are brown with a white stripe. I just looked again at my original interior and it has the white stripe.


Original Interior

Here is a sample from the side panel that is hidden under the side of the seat back. This doesn't see any sun so it should be pretty close to what it was originally. It's definitly white.

Interior Closeup

Do you know when your car was assembled? Is it a calendar year 1923? Did it have the mahogany stripe in it originally?

Dave S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 12:35 pm:

Boy, am I glad this thread came around just now! My unrestored 26 Tudor spent the last 50 years in a dirt floor barn, so almost all the fabric is gone, as is most of the roof wood--so I will have to start over again there. I keep hoping I will find someone's original interior they took out, so I wouldn't have new material in the car, but that's a real long shot! So, it looks like I would have to put in at least the upper upholstery panels before the new top & top wood. Dave S's pic of his behind the seat area looks as though the lower panels go over the upper anyways.
As I understand it, side panels, then the welting (was this originally matching material, or some fancy cording looking a bit like windlacing?) then the top material, and lastly a cardboard strip to hold the headlining material tight against the cording for a nice finish. An then you put on the roof wood, and very finally, the top material and edging.
T'ake care,
David D.from out of the barn


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Belland on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 02:06 pm:

DAVE S.

I have seen the cloth with what is a white stripe have also seen almost a sort of grey it almost makes one think they may have used whatever was available.I'm the third owner of this localy built car but when i got it it had undergone an unofficial restoration so it's own cloth was changed out i redid it after putting the car through my cruel ownership policy (perform or die)but this is absolutely made in 24 as the fenders are original and have those raised areas where they bolt to the running board i think in 23 and early 24 the local plant used washers in this area to lower the fender from the apron where they were getting a squeak.The bolt of cloth i have was aquired about 1965 along with all the contents of the shop and i think i have enough of the plain brown headliner etc.to do one car. RAY


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave_Sosnoski on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 04:24 pm:

Ray,

I see you are in Canada, so there may be some differences between the Canadian cars and the American cars. I know there are big differences in the open cars. On the American cars the easy way to tell a 24 coupe that was built in 23 is by looking at the trunk floor. The ones built in 23 had a notch cut out where the rear body bracket is. The 24 - 25 cars had a dish shaped piece installed here and the body bracket fits into the dish. I don't know if this holds for the Canadian cars or not. As I mentioned the sales literature makes mention of the Mahogany stripe. I just haven't seen it yet. That's probably going to be one of the next areas of research I do. Right now I'm waiting for documentation regarding the roof material. The parts book says it's Leather. I got the part drawing and in big letters it says Leather! I'm now waiting for the material specifications for it. I've never seen a coupe with a leather roof - it's always been kind of like a canvas.

Matt and Dave,

Here is a drawing I did a few months ago showing how the upholstery and headliner is installed. The drawing is missing the little cardboard strip as I wasn't aware of it at the time. There is a definite order as to how the interior panels were installed. Some fit on top of others so to do it right you need to install it in a specific order. Whether or not it really matters is up to you. You will have to look at an original Tudor or 26 Coupe to see how that is installed.


Headliner Install

Here is an original 24 Tudor with it's original interior. It also has the white stripes!

Original Tudor Interior

Hope this helps.

Dave S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Belland on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 06:01 pm:

DAVE S.

The trunk panel sounds the same on another car i looked at the roof did appear to be a leather the roof on mine when i got it was also a leather very fine almost no grain to it and believe the original was similar to that but not being able to locate anything close enough to it i used the model A style stuff,one thing i noticed was my doors are all steel and on another original canadian car with 24-25 body but built in 23 for the change it also has steel doors leads me to believe all canadian coupes for those years had steel doors i'll check the upholstery next time i'm there for color stripe for you. RAY


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Victor Bloxsome ,Queensland. Australia on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 05:13 am:

Ray, I am 1/4 SCOTTISH, my gran was from Ayrshire.

I drink 1/2 SCOTCH shots at business luncheons while my customers are guzzling themselves into agreement on whiskey (or ouiskebagh if you wish).

Just to be pedantic. VICTOR.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Belland on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 10:19 am:

VICTOR we put GLENFIDICH in the CANADIAN CLUB bottle and vice versa people usualy want to try the good stuff and mix it with pop and stuff they end up ruining the good stuff so i just switched bottles only the real pros know the difference my mum's from GLASGOW clan BOYD. RAY


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard G.Goelz on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 10:50 am:

Mathew, if you buy your kit from Cartouche their instructions are for installing after the wood is in because you need to attach the headliner to the bows,i suppose you could fit the wood and assemble it and then put the headliner and braid on and lift the whole thing onto the top of the car,i did my coupe with a kit and the instructions were terrible.
Rick Goelz


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Murphy on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 11:24 am:

Dave, nice drawing! Thanks for adding it.

Rick, I was think of going with Cartouche. Outside of the bad instructions, were you happy with the quality of the kit?

Thanks,
Matt


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard G.Goelz on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 01:12 pm:

Matt,the quality was good and fit ok,i had to call several times as i had pieces that were not marked and had pieces left over.
Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 03:29 am:

Richard,
The cartouche headliner sounds different from the original, if I'm reading these postings correctly, as there is no mention of it being tacked to the roof ribs. If they aren't tacked to the ribs, how does one prevent them from sagging?
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard G.Goelz on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 09:33 am:

David,i don't know unless it were attached to upholstery board.
Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By william deering on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 10:33 am:

The Cartouche upholstery kit for my 1925 touring is not the best. The instructions are about USELESS and the backrest sections are not made right. The material is good quality but the padding is not thick enough and the welting trim tips are incorrect(they use the cheaper version).
They also promised that they were revising the instructions(last Nov.) and would send them out. Still waiting.
Bill D


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave_Sosnoski on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 06:22 pm:

David,

I can't say for sure on the 26's, but I have a 24 Coupe that has the original interior that has never been touched. The 26's are probably the same or similar. On my car, the headliner is tacked in around the edge, and is tacked to only one bow - to the front of the third bow from the front. I haven't had the top off so I can't say exactly how it was done, but I'm gussing that there was a strip of material sewn across the top of the headliner at this point. I can see a line across the headliner where this was done, but don't see a seam so it is not an actual seam. It seems to be tacked in three places on the bow - in the center, and then half way to each side from center.

24 Coupe Headliner

Dave S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Belland on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 07:53 pm:

Look at DAVES drawing notice the tack now imagine that tack only holding the windlace and cloth of the side panel,now your headliner is tacked front to back and side to side but not on top of the previous material just yet but rather on the inside edge of that ledge just to the left of the tack in the picture this leaves the headliner cloth slightly above that little cord or windlace.
Cardboard strips cut to the width of that wood ledge beforehand are now tacked down through the cardboard,through headliner cloth,through the windlace etc.
The cardboard strips act as a tightener since the headliner is pretty tight at that point and resting above the other material as it is tacked downward it forces the cloth to pull in toward the sides and further tightens the headliner i have also seen small strips of tin used as a stiffener for the curves above the rear quarters.I hope this helps a bit. RAY


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