CUTOUT RELAY

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: CUTOUT RELAY
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lawthers on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 03:56 pm:

Being electronically challenged, I was wondering if there is a way to test a cutout relay? I have a relay that came with my 26 Touring that has no markings on it and I would like to determine if it is operational, and for what voltage. Is there a way to test these things?

Thanks for any and all help.

Tom L


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Patterson (Aust) on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 05:17 pm:

Tom,
Like you I'm 'electronically challenged' and when it came to that little tin, I didnt know what to do during restoration.
I found that the cutouts that John Regan sells through Fun Projects had a great reputation, so I bought one for my '21.
Its been on the car now for 3 years and hasnt been touched.
It works well and I'd recomend you ditch the old original and have a look at 'Fun projects' " website.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lawthers on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 05:55 pm:

Rob,
Yes, I know John's product. I am currently using a 6 volt voltage regulator from Fun Projects and it works great.

I am trying to determine if the previous owner was running the car on 12 volt battery only. He made the battery box to fit what looks like a 12 volt battery, however, when I got the car, things had been changed around over the six years since the last owner passed away.

Tom L


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 06:13 pm:

Gen side to Bat side should be open when tested with a meter. Put battery ground to Cutout ground. When you apply 6 volts to the Bat side, you should hear a faint click and power will be present at the Gen side. If you don't get power on the Gen side, try 12v. If you still don't get power on the Gen side, it's dead.

I agree that you should get VR even if the cutout works. I have an original that I restored with new insulation, adjustment and a point cleaning but I only use it to test and set generators on the bench.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 07:14 pm:

Tom
The answer to your specific question; there is a procedure in all early Dykes manuals for adjusting the "cut in" voltage (the only adjustment) of a reverse current cutout using bench test equipment.
Now for the opinion part of my post.
Having said that, I have never heard of anyone changing the cut in voltage when converting a Model T to 12 volts.
As a practical matter, these tests are useless because they do not address the major cause of cutout failure which is contact failure, which is inherent in reverse current cutouts because every time the cutout "cuts in" and "cuts out' there is major arching at the contacts and they quickly. It is not a question of will a relay cutout fail, but "WHEN will it fail. If they stick your battery will be discharged, if they fail to make contact the generator is destroyed.
As Rob and Ken have advised use a Funprojects voltage regulator, follow the instructions carefully, let us know if you have any electrical accessories and exactly where they are connected and we can help you.
If everything is working correctly you will have a "bullet proof" charging system and your batteries will last a long time.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 07:23 pm:

Ken, what's the trick to getting the top off a cutouf? It looks like they're soldered in place. I tried heating one with a small hand torch but didn't have any luck.

Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 07:36 pm:

Garnie
The answer to your question is; the top of the cutout is usually spot welded to the base.
You can open the can, but are unable to effect any repairs. If you think you have, it is nothing more than a generator killer.
In my opinion? throw all used cutouts in the garbage for the reasons cited in other posts above.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 07:54 pm:

I rebuilt my cutout when it failed rather than replacing it with a diode. Modern semiconductor components are foreign to a 1920's electrical system which is why I didn't go down that path.
The problem was mainly due to crumbling insulators (intermittent shorts), and poor connection between the generator terminal strip and the coil frame (contact not always closing). I used fibreglass printed circuit board material to replace the insulators and soldered a wire from the generator terminal strip to the coil frame. Incidentally, the contact pull in voltage is around 9V with my cutout.
Maybe it's the fact that my charge current is set lower than most but I've never come close to burning up my generator windings when the contacts didn't close...I'd just wait until the first convenient place to stop and press down on the contacts. It's pretty obvious if something isn't right with the cutout simply by watching the ammeter as you drive. The contacts are in as new condition with the car having being driven for 36 years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 08:37 pm:

I won't have cutouts on my T's ever again Ron. I have a set of Regan's best on them!!

Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lawthers on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 11:19 am:

I currently use a VR from Fun Projects on my T. I find it much more useful than a cutout.

I was simply inquiring as to how a cutout relay could be tested. I am curious as to if the former owner was running a 12 volt system.

Thanks for everyones help.
Tom L


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 11:40 am:

I had a electronic regulator on my model A. It crapped out. I have run cutouts with no troubles for years. The auto industry used mechanical cutouts for 75 years. They are not fool proof. Neither are electronic ones. Use what works for you and don't disparage the other guy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 03:32 pm:

Les
I agree with you to the extent that you find a NOS Echlin, Ward-Leonard or well made cutout from the 1920-1960's era. But the fundamental cutout design, particularily when used with the third brush regulation type generator used on the Model T, is prone to failure. Additionally, unless you are very observant failures usually takes other expensive equipment along with it when it fails.
The reproduction cutouts sold today are of very poor quality almost to the point of being useless.
Voltage regulator failures are not common if you play by the rules and they provide protection for other expensive parts by sacrificing themselves.
Sure, use what you want, but beware of the relay cutouts being made today.
Ron the Coilman


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