Facts Wanted Please - Rear Axle Rebuild

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Facts Wanted Please - Rear Axle Rebuild
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas J. Miller on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 05:44 pm:

I am putting my rear axle back together. I plan on putting the new solid caged roller bearings on either side of the differential and using original bearings at the outside ends near the backing plates. I've heard many opinions about the new bearings but I'm looking for comments from others who have actually run with these bearings. Is the durability there? For the pinion bearing, I opted for the Fun Projects conversion. All four axle sleeves are the new construction hardened versions. Thanks, Tom.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 07:16 pm:

Thomas:

Save yourself a lot of trouble, get another set of original Ford axel roller bearings.

I had the crappy bearings in an axel for 5 years, re-built the axel to change gearing only to find the bearings falling out of the cages.

Ford rollers measured .500 each. Acceptable wear might be as low as .495 . Wear on axel shafts have to be checked for total wear between axel shaft, bearing & bearing shell.

By the way, I would only use the $ 16.00 bearing shells, as they're up to Ford specs.

I was lucky & found a good Ford pinion bearing ( .562 ) & a good pinion housing ( on the '26 ). If you need the pinion housing shell, I have a NOS one.

The roller thrust bearings ( torrington style ) you mentioned I used in that early axel with the soild rollers. Pitting was evident on the rollers. Used Lubriplate 140W synthetic gear oil as usual. I would not use those thrust bearings again.

Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 09:53 pm:

I feel like 1 of many problems with those new bearings is the fact there is no grease groove in them.This lets them wear out quick.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Houston on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 11:54 pm:

I think .495 wear is actually .010 Wear? .005 on each side? If so, .010 is probably too much, so if you choose to use these bearings, the shells should probably be shimed? I'm asking.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 12:12 am:

Uh,I think it would be half of .005 perside.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 07:22 am:

Tom: I'm glad Fred Houston picked up on this thread, as he & some friends from the Tulsa Chapter MTFCA did the Rear Axel Rebuild video available thru the MTFCA. There's much more info in that set of videos than can be presented here, and it's all correct & very helpful even for the novice.

Fred is absolutely correct on the total clearance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 07:27 am:

Tom: The Fun Projects pinion bearing set is first class and is the way to go if a perfect Ford pinion bearing is unobtainable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas J. Miller on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 01:24 pm:

Thanks to all who answered. It looks like I'm on the right track with most of the components I selected for this rebuild. I'll start digging through my boxes to find two more roller bearings. Tom


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 12:16 am:

Yep, I chuck the rollers if they're worn to less than .498 each. I use only good used or NOS original bearings with either good original or the new best quality hardened sleeves in my differentials. The repro Hyatt style bearings are only good for paperweights. The solid metal rollers are way too soft.

I've seen both styles of John Regan's pinion bearing setups and they are good quality. I wouldn't be afraid to use either of them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Patterson (Aust) on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 07:49 am:

The criticism of the repro hyatt style bearings has been going on for many years now. I have a set of 4 in my low mileage rear axle and with all this negative talk about them I wish I hadnt installed them. But at the time, they were all that was available to me on my limited budget and the originals were all bad, bar one.
In all this time and with all this criticism of them, why hasnt one of the vendors come up with a nicely grooved, hard, well caged, reproduction of the original. They make many products that are far more complicated and expensive. Why not rear axle bearings? I wonder.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Campbell on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 08:05 am:

Good point Rob. Those bearings have been around for a long time and even some of the catalogs say that they are not of a very good quality, but yet they continue to sell them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger K on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 08:20 am:

It is not just the lack of grease grooves that is the trouble with the repro rear axle roller bearings. The repro rollers are made out of solid material, while the original Hyatt rollers were a tightly wound up spring, thus making it flexible. The grooves added better lubrication too, but the flexibility function was essential, at least for the outer bearing & the driveshaft, when the axle/shaft bends a tiny amount in use.

Well, that's my opinion as an engineer. Others view may differ.

The Hyatt production process is probably foreign to all modern bearing production companies?
Tooling could be too expensive considering old useable hyatt bearings still can be found - and outer bearings of the modern types that takes the load off the axle is probably a safer (but more expensive) option, giving better sales margin for the vendor?

The modern pinion bearing alternatives are also better than the original (but expensive)

Wonder how much a reproduction open pinion bearing spool would cost?

The 1923 Ford Dealers Data Book on this site has some info: http://www.mtfca.com/books/ford.htm

"Roller Bearings:
All roller bearings used in the Ford car are made of a high grade alloy steel of rectangular cross section and wound in spiral form. The rollers are held in place in the races by the "cage", which is composed of a flat ring at each end of the bearing; these rings are held together by bars. In the case of the drive shaft bearing, there is a bar between every two rollers, known as the high duty type. The races are made of a high carbon steel on account of the high rate of speed as compared with the races on the axle shaft bearings, which are made of low carbon steel, carbonized and case hardened.
The rollers are assembled in the "cage" so that the spiral runs in the opposite direction on every other one. This condition assists greatly in the lubrication, as the oil will run to the left on one roller and to the right on the next one, keeping the rollers and races perfectly lubricated."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David_Cockey on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 08:44 pm:

My opinion:

The original type spiral wound bearings are superior because the rollers are slightly flexible. I don't think the grooves anything in terms of moving the grease back and forth since they are not enclosed in a tube like an archamedes screw. Without a tube around the screw there is no reason for the grease to move sideways.

I have my doubts about how easy it is to find original style bearings with less than .002 wear. I've collected a number of orginal type axle bearings over the last couple of years and much under .005 wear is not common, under .003 is very unusual. I do check both ends of the rollers since many are worn tapered.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave_Sosnoski on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 09:30 pm:

I am currently investigating having the rear axle bearings reproduced and am in contact with a company that specializes in obsolete bearings. They are searching to see if there are any original stock bearings available and are also investigating what it would take to reproduce the bearing from scratch. Right now I am in the "let's see if there is something that can be done" phase. If things work out, they will be produced exactly to the Ford drawing and specifications.

My gut feeling is that the cost is going to be so high that it is not going to be feasible to do. The end caps are stamped and a custom die will have to be made to stamp them. The rollers will have to be wound - and there are two different rollers in each bearing (spirals wound in different directions). The tolerance on the OD of the rollers is something like .0015". There is a whole heat treating and hardening process that they must go through. I think the tooling costs alone are going to kill the project. If it is feasible, I will probably have to do a run of something like 1000 bearings in order to get the piece price as low as possible and make it even worth tooling up for and for the manufacturer to consider doing a production run. If the cost is $20 per bearing (which is probably cheap), that's $20K that I have to lay out to get them made. Then, I take the chance that if something is wrong and they don't work well I have 1000 useless bearings sitting in my basement and $20K less in my bank account.

So, let me ask this. How much are you willing to pay for a brand new, made to Ford spec. rear axle bearing? At some point I'm going to have some rough numbers to work with and am going to have to make a decision to continue or pull the plug. Used bearings are about $10. The replacements that are available now are $10.95. I can pretty much guarentee that there is no way I can have bearings made and sell them for that price. Are you willing to pay $50 per bearing, $75 per bearing, $100 per bearing?

Dave S.
T-Parts.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By scott on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 12:10 pm:

I value my time and don't like to do things twice unless absolutely necessary. I would think that an honest-to-goodness Ford Spec bearing would be worth $50-75 dollars...to me at least. For those folks on a budget with plenty of time on their hands, I'm not sure you could compete with used bearings .004 undersize at $10.
Caveat: While I think $50-75 would be a fair price, I am not in the market to purchase at this time.
Never the less, it is encouraging to hear of folks like yourself investigating economic merits of trying to produce presently obsolete items. Good luck, and thank you!

scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave_Sosnoski on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 09:57 am:

Well, only one response (thank you Scott) to my question about what your willing to pay for new axle bearings. Am I to assume that is because nobody is willing to pay that much more for a made to spec bearing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Sacchi on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 10:22 am:

Dave, from all I have heard (and seen) about the repro axle bearings, and the scarcity of good used ones, $50-75 would be a bargain in comparison, and still less expensive than the modern type ones.

Don't assume that folks wouldn't pay for a superior product. The lack of responses could be because your question is a little off-topic for this thread. Since I am not looking at a differential rebuild (at this moment), or have any knowledge to share on the topic, I have not been following this thread. Others may have overlooked it for similar reasons.

If the part was in a limited run, I might buy a set, even if I wasn't planning a rebuild in the near future. After all, it will need to be rebuilt at some point, and it would be handy to have good, quality parts available.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 10:31 am:

I would think 50-60 bucks would be tolerated by the masses for a good bearing that would last a long time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas J. Miller on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 11:36 am:

I have to agree with the 50-60 bucks number and you should assume the average customer would buy at least two. In my case, the best of my old stock bearings are next to the differential because I don't want to touch them again for a long time. The outers are a lot easier to replace and monitor so I'm not as worried.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave_Sosnoski on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 03:20 pm:

Thanks for the input. It will probably be a little while before I have any information on if this project will go forward or not. Remember, the numbers I've put out here are just examples as I have no idea what the real cost will be. It could be lower, or it could be much higher.

Bob, I put this here because someone in this thread mentioned why none of the suppliers has taken on the task of making the right bearing. Maybe it was just a coincidence, but I found it interresting that people were quick to jump in and criticize the parts that were avilable and complain that good parts were not available. As soon as it became known that if you want good parts you will have to pay a lot more money the whole thread just stopped.

Tom, If you have enough good used bearings then that is the best way to go. Make sure the cage is tight (grab each end and try to twist it) and that the rollers measure .498 or more. Make sure you measure both ends of the rollers as they can wear tapered. If you can't get enough good originals, then you can use the repro bearings in the center. The inner bearings really don't carry any weight and they run in the rear end lube so you can get away with them in there. The outer bearings carry the weight of the car and run in grease and the repro bearings don't like that environment.

Dave S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Harper on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 04:01 pm:

I think that $50-75 for a real Ford specification bearing is entirely reasonable. Price a wheel/axle bearing for your modern car, then factor in limited production and the start up costs of tooling and sample run, heat treat and all of the rest. Suddenly $50-75 doesn't sound so bad.
I can be as parsimonious as the best of 'em; can penny pinch to make ol' Abe really howl, but there situations where I will spend the money and get the Real Deal.
Dave, please continue to investigate this noble venture.
With encouragement, Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Sacchi on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 09:55 pm:

Bill, me too - I can squeeze a nickel so tight that the "Indian rides the buffalo". But when it comes to something that needs to be right when it comes to safety (the first thing I got for my T was Rockies at almost $600!), I won't scrimp.

Dave, if it is possible, go for it.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 10:16 pm:

Aint no way you are as tight with money as I am.I pinch pennys till they look like they have been run over by a train.
But even I want something as aggrovateing as a rearend to fix,right when I put it back together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 02:52 pm:

Dave, Making axle bearings to the original Ford specifications is a great idea. The expense is another matter that I fully understand. We would be happy to stock them as an alternative to the solid roller bearings. However many people do not understand the use of a solid roller bearing. Ford did not use the leather grease seals until late in production. prior to this the outer bearings received oil from the rear end that ran down the axle shaft to the bearing. This oil then leaked out thru the outer felt seal and lubricated the parking brakes. This all stopped with the use of the inner leather seals which created a sealed bearing. Then, the bearing cavity could be filled with bearing grease which would stay in place. With a sealed bearing the grease cannot go anywhere so there is no need for rollers with groves. The bearings are fully encased in grease. The modern Timpkin bearings used in the front wheel bearings are solid roller bearings. These too are encased in a sealed bearing design. The large solid roller bearings available for the TT Truck rear axle were designed for use in army tanks so I must disagree that all solid roller bearings are bad. We have rebuilt over 100 Model T Rear Axles using solid roller bearings with neoprene inner oil seals with no reported problems. The only problem we have seen is excessive wear in the soft axle sleeves. We cured this problem by having them heat treated. The problem mentioned earlier with a loose and sloppy bearing cage is prevalent with any caged bearing including Ford's. Food for thought from experience.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave_Sosnoski on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 08:33 pm:

Glen,

That's interresting. I've always been told the solid ones work OK on the inside but not the outside. I can see the logic behind what you are saying. I'll have to think on that one for a while.

I'll keep people updated when I get more info on the original bearings.

Dave S.


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