Lowering a frame for speedster application.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Lowering a frame for speedster application.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 10:08 pm:

Ok,I have seen several shots both here and on other internet locations of how to lower a chassis at the front.But the only shots I can see of a rear is in a book I have, Model T ford in speed and sport. The pics are small and not much detail.But I can see in 1 picture of a Faultless Underslung parts ad that shows a way to lower a T chassis with out cutting the frame.In other words a reversable modification which is what I would be intrested in doing if I were to ever build a speedster.There is some photos of a nice little red speedster that show the front but none of the rear on a recent thread here.

If someone has a lowered frame could you show some photos of the rear setup? There may be a day when I take a notion to use this slightly damaged PB chassis I have to make a speedster.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Sizemore on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 10:11 pm:

Mack,
The easiest way is to Z the frame. I have the body off of Junior so I will take a picture of a Zed frame.
JS


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 07:10 am:

JS, I don't think Mack wants to cut the frame.
Are all speedsters lowered? I've seen pictures of racers that don't appear lowered but I haven't inspected one in person so pics may be an illusion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 07:25 am:

"Are all speedsters lowered?"

Mine certainly isn't, and I really like it this way!

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 07:45 am:

Mine isn't. I did not want to destroy an original 15 frame,so I left it alone. Perhaps some day I will find a good 15 body and can easily swap it out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 07:57 am:

The frame I would use would be tossed by most.It was the frame under the wood saw rig I traded for last year.Has some extra holes that I would weld up and a very slight bend in the right front rail.Nothing I cant fix.
I could cut it if there wasnt any other way,but I would rather not.And this project is still in the planning stages except for a few parts I am gathering with it in mind.
The 1 I have on 4 whitewall tires was going to be a speedster but a little woodbed pickup is just more feasable because I want to drive it to get parts and such.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 08:22 am:

Mack,

How about a speedster/pickup? My speedster originally had an oak trunk which I partitioned so that one side was a battery box. I still couldn't carry enough to suit me.

So I gave away the trunk (after refinishing it!), added the reproduction under-car battery carrier, and built a red oak stake bed that can be removed and reinstalled without disturbing the fuel tank.

Now it is the car I wanted - works great for going to the grocery store, even when I buy dog food!

Seth

Before:

After:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger K on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 08:27 am:

Check out the Northwest Vintage Speedster's site http://www.nwvs.org/index.shtml for lots of pictures and technical info.

Here's an article on period lowering methods:
http://www.nwvs.org/Technical/TimKnappOnLowering.pdf
The Laurel/Craig-hunt/Speedway Motors/Lima methods for lowering the rear are somewhat similar, looks like they can be homemade, and doesn't necessarily demand cutting the frame. The rear axle has to move to the rear of the rear spring, and that can be accompished with other means, like adding a Warford gearbox without cutting the driveshaft the full length of the box.

An extra homemade crossmenber in front of the old one (hopefully stronger than the Speedway motors drawing in the article) for the rear spring can also be an alternative.

For a moderate lowering, just reshaping of the rear spring may be enough?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 08:36 am:

Roger,

Though my car isn't "lowered", there is one less leaf in the rear spring and also one less in the front also, I believe. No reverse-eyed springs or anything like that.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 09:57 am:

I like the idea of a speedster pick up myself. Kind of the "best of both worlds" scenario. When we first purchased our 26 roadster I started looking for a 26-27 pick up bed but due to cost I tossed that idea pretty quickly. I prefer our next car to be a sedan for all weather and 2+ passenger touring. If funds allow, I may look for a running-operable chassis and start building a stock height speedster/pickup too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Sigworth on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 10:20 am:

By far the easiest way to lower the rear of the chassis is to take your rear spring to a spring shop and have it dearched 5 inches. The last time I had it done about five years ago it cost about $125. Both of my speedsters are lowered this way and it works very well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Frink on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 08:04 pm:

Mack, these are some photos I stole off the internet.
Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glenn Pullin on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 03:41 am:

Mack
This ebay store has the brackets that Bob has provided a photo of.

http://search.stores.ebay.com/Antique-T-Motor-Sports-llc_lowering-brackets_W0QQf tsZ2QQsaselZ113193192QQsofpZ0

Glenn


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 11:21 am:

I have more of a likeing to the extra crossmember method.
Thanks for the input.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Protexter on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 03:45 pm:

Seth, How is the ride with a front spring missing? I have always heard that you should only remove ones from the back as the front is still under the same load.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 04:06 pm:

Ned,

There are seven leaves in the front spring but I don't know if that is the stock number or not. Ride is "pickup like" - fine I guess. Since I've never ridden in another T I don't have anything to compare it to.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone thomas on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 04:22 pm:

Mack, I recently underslung my car using homemade Z-brackets and a flattened front cross member. I made the z's to lower the frame by 6 inches and moved the front axle outward 2 inches. I also reduced the front spring pack by three springs.
One problem found, I need to put one spring (Ihope just one) back because the tie-rod rubs a slight bit on my z's the way I have them mounted to the car. The rubbing does not seem to effect the steering, but just want to be rid of the slight rubbing anyway. In an earlier thread "racer update" I believe I had posted photo's. If you wish photo's of my set up, let me know and I will get some to you.
As for the rear, I also took out springs and them bent the two large springs for a 3 inch lowering. I'm considering making z-brackets for the back end. As my car sits with the changes made, the rear still sits 2 inches higher then the front.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 06:08 pm:

Yea,photos would be appreciated.Thanks!
I think my email is listed on my profile here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 07:00 pm:

Speaking of speedster/racer projects - Tyrone, how are you coming along with that yellow beauty of yours? Pics would be excellent!

Thanks, Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 10:14 pm:

Well by golly, i'll just take some photos for ya both. As for the yellow Seth, if it would stop raining for more then half a day, I'd break out the spray gun. It's been raining every day for the last week and for a couple more days yet. I still have a house to paint.
Seth since I have your attention a couple questions. The place I talked to about paint suggested enamel paint. What do you think as far as endurance? I have size 14 shoes, the car body is as wide as the outside of the frame, with the reverse pedal in place theres not much room for a big foot. My second question is, what do you think of operating reverse by the use of a handle linked to the pedal shaft pushing it forward?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 10:30 pm:

You are more than welcome to send a couple inchs of that rain to the Peidmont of north carolina if you would like.We are in a drought,I spent alot of time and money on the yard and now it is brown as a cheap paper bag.
Thanks for the help fellows.I am studieing this and other info for future projects.I have to keep my mind occupied so I wont go nuts!.
I am learning more everyday about these T's. I am really starting to aggree with Bill Aber,the dang things are alive .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 10:37 pm:

I wish I could help you with the rain. I guess I could bottle some tomorrow when it rains and send it to you. Yes, without a lawn that needs to be mowed every other day, life could be boring. I'll get those photos taken tomorrow.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 10:51 pm:

Well I have to say I had to start mowing it down to 4.5 inchs high in mid january and bag each week until the first of may and I aint had to mow since.I "HAD" a beutiful lawn that was like carpet.

Once I get the parts and get the 1 ton chassis repaired that I have been working on as a side project I will dig out that PB chassis and start repairs on it so when I get time I can start building as speedster it will be ready.
To many ideas,to little time-money!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 07:02 am:

Paint? Well, I'm certainly no expert on paint (or much else for that matter), but I prefer PPG's MTK acrylic urethane. It is one-step (not basecoat plus clearcoat) and can be wetsanded in less than 24 hours. It can be clearcoated if desired.

Body/Paint guys may disagree with my preference.

"Enamel" paint could mean lots of things, but to me, acrylic urethane is the one to use in automotive applications.

Can't wait for those pics!

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone thomas on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 08:02 am:

So Seth you forgot the most important question. Do you have an oppinion on working my reverse via a hand lever and linkage?
That urethane does seem to be the lastest and greatest paint going today. Is it easy to paint?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Sizemore on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 08:15 am:

Dupont urethane is what I use and it works great. Nice flow, easy to spray and last for a long time. And if you are lucky you don't have to sand and buff it. The below picture is straight out of the gun not wet sanded or buffed.

Tyrone, We need some pix? And send some rain this way. :-)
JS


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 08:22 am:

Tyrone,

If PPG's acrylic urethane didn't produce good results with ease, I'd leave the painting to someone else! The only thing I'm not crazy about is the urethane primer that you use underneath it - it is heavy-bodied so it fills well but I can't make it lay down very smooth so I end up wetsanding primer until the cows come home!

I shoot this acrylic urethane through a HVLP gun with a 1.4mm nozzle at about 20 psi at the gun. (Harbor Freight cheapo) The small nozzle is perfect for the color, but it is probably the reason I can't get the primer to lay down - I probably need a 1.8mm nozzle gun for the primer. Ken Kopsky suggested the larger gun for the primer and I should get one before I shoot more primer on the hood that he fabbed for me.

Anything to help you drive that thing with those big feet of yours is fine by me - the lever for the least-used reverse sounds like a winner. My feet are only size 11 and sometimes I think it's too busy down there in my car!



Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 09:48 am:

Go ahead,laugh, but you know those "roach stomper" western boots,that is what I useally wear when I drive a T,makes it a little easyer.Mine are the heavy steel toe Double H boots.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 10:59 pm:

here we are guys


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 07:13 am:

Very nice! Coming right along! Keep the pictures coming unless you don't want any of our silly ideas!

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Sizemore on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 07:30 am:

Tyrone
Very cool!!! I like it alot. Keep the pix coming.
Seth,
Lowes has a Ingersol gun that is perfect for the urethane primer and it is inexpensive. around 40 bucks and you get 2 cups
JS


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 08:02 am:

Thanks John! Not that I need much of an excuse to head to my favorite store!

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 10:25 pm:

wanted to say thanks for the photos.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 10:25 am:

There is no need to cut a frame to lower the rear. You move the rear spring behind the rear axle.

Remove the rear spring perches. In their place, bolt on a steel plate, 1/4 thick, that angles down and to the rear of the axle tube. In the lower end of that plate, mount your perches.

This moves the spring back and behind the frame cross member. For my car, I bent a 1/4 steel plate to the curvature of the rear cross member and attached it to the top surface of the cross member with "U" bolts. The plate extends back to the spring which is also "U"-bolted to it. Doing this will require you to brace the rear cross member so the offset mounting doesn't make it want to twist or roll forward. I added two braces coming from the center of the cross member and angling out to each frame rail. At the attachment point to the frame rails I also added a cross brace to tie in the two ends. In other words, the bracing forms a triangle with two points on the frame rails and one on the cross member.

Also, don't try to lower the car by removing spring leaves! I did that and created a very bouncey, unstable, dangerous car. Use a stock spring. Reshape it if you want but don't remove leaves. Friction shocks are also a definite plus.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 10:33 pm:

I dug this thread up with the key word search.Jerry,do you have a photo of your setup?

I was reading in the yellow speed book tonight and I think it is the Laurel stuff that said a steering rod needed to be lenghtened when putting the axle out front.Is that the rod that goes from the pitman arm down to the rod that connects the 2 spindals?sorry I cant think of all the steering part names tonight.


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