Dragging in neutral, slipping in low again?! HELP!

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Dragging in neutral, slipping in low again?! HELP!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Menkhaus on Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 01:50 pm:

OK, so I started another thread earlier about my T low band dragging in nuetral in a parade (car creeping forward) but slipping in low gear. I pulled the low (and brake) bands yesterday, and the low band (although not completely worn through, was relatively thin. So, on went a real nice NOS WARDS cotton band, soaked in oil last night, and installed this morning (without ANY new words!!) I reused the Kevlar brake, it was fine.

The low speed screw is sticking about a full inch and a half out of the hogshead, definitly more meat on this band.

The car's creeping forward, and low gear is about useless, so I turn in the screw about 1/2 inch, now she's creeping again, and low is still about useless?

I've only driven it 100 feet. I'm afraid of dragging the low band and cracking a drum, but at the same time I know I have to seat the band. Is something wrong still? Am I just paranoid now? I don't remember the low speed screw ever sticking out that far, which would explain the slipping in low...but why would it creep forward? It never did before? New band not compressed yet? What makes me paranoid is that it's acting exactly the same as before I replaced the band..which tells me it's something else? But what?

HELP!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso on Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 02:01 pm:

I think you better start over with your initial clutch adjustment. If you have a copy of the
"T Bible", it is a pretty simple affair. If the car is creeping, your clutch adjustment is too tight. There are a couple critical measurements for a adjustments to do first then you can start adjusting your bands.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave_Sosnoski on Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 02:27 pm:

Doug,

T's will creep forward in neutral - that is the nature of the beast. Usually they do it when cold and once warm up don't creep as much. If you are having problems where you have no neutral and you have gone through all of the adjustments correctly, the problem may be in the brake drum. Around the inside of the brake drum are some lugs. The large clutch disks have notches around the outside diameter which fit over the lugs on the brake shoe. Over time, the clutch disks bang against the brake drum and wear grooves in the lugs. When the grooves get deep enough, the clutch disks get hung up on the grooves and don't fully release. Unfortunately, to check this you have to pull the engine and pull out the clutch disks so if others have other ideas it would be best to try those first. The only fix for this is to either file down the lugs so they are smooth again, or replace the drum if they are severely worn.

As far as the slow speed pedal adjustment goes, just set it so that when you press firmly on the pedal with your foot, it stops about 1 - 1 1/2 " before bottoming on the floorboard. If you are using cotton linings, I wouldn't be concerned about cracking a drum.

Dave S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David_Cockey on Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 06:58 pm:

The T transmission is fundamentally different than a "modern" manual transmission. It has a lot more in common with many automatic transmissions. The multi-plate clutch at the rear of transmission serves a different purpose from the clutch in a conventional manual transmission. The T clutch does not connect and disconnect the transmission from the engine. Rather it locks the transmission together so it rotates as a unit for high gear.

If the multi-plate clutch is dragging then the car will try to creep forward, even when low gear is fully disengaged. You can leave the low band completely out of the transmission drag in the mult-plate clutch will cause the car to try to creep forward. Check the clutch adjustment.

I'd be much more concerned about damaging the drum due to the low speed band slipping then from it lightly rubbing against the drum with the pedal all the way up.

Adjust the low speed band so that the low speed pedal isn't bottomed against the floor board when fully depressed. Then drive the car and check the low speed band adjustment. This is assuming the metal part of the band is round and not badly distorted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Menkhaus on Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 07:22 pm:

Thanks all... I've been working it all day. It seems as though the new band is compressing quite a bit, as I've had to spin in the outside bolt about an inch now. With the old band, it was at the last thread, now I have about an inch of thread showing.

After reading some of the posts, I began to wonder if I didn't have two problems, a clutch pack that won't readily dis-engage, perhaps a few or more clutch disks stuck together due to brake drum lugs issues (These is the original Ford clutch pack), -AND- a worn band.

Here's what doesn't make sense: When I tighten the low band so that it won't slip in low, the car really wants to creep, no , GO forward, like I have the band way too tight. As the band is wearing in, it begins to slip, and the car no longer tries to creep forward! I tighten the band, it wants to creep, but it doesn't slip. A few more of these sequences, and my mind is going nuts trying to think about what is going on inside the tranny! Aarggh!!! Everything looks great, should be great right!?

btw, my low had been a little on the loose side for a while, but quite serviceable. Saturday it SUDDENLY broke loose on me, and I haven't been able to solve this slipping low band yet. Does the 'SUDDENLY' mean anything? Also, during Saturday's little 130 mile jaunt, once or three times, the wife and I heard a cute little whirring/whistling noise for just a few seconds. At first I played it off as the Rocky's drying out...but maybe something was spinning / breaking inside the tranny?

I'm beginning to let me mind get the best of me here. I decided to come in, work on it later, and discuss it with you guys and Uncle Budweiser.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke Chennell on Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 10:09 pm:

Doug:

I think you may just be unlucky and have a broken drum. This is where some deductive investigation work comes into play. Sometimes you have to be a Sherlock Holmes in these things:

1. Seperate the systems. As I see it, you have a few different items going on here. A. The friction system - drum, band, lining. B. The actuation system - camshaft, pedals, adjustment bolt, spring. C. The high speed system - clutch, pedal, rod, etc., etc.

2. Isolate the systems. You've started this. You have isolated the friction system (for the most part) by replacing both the band and lining. But - have you checked the drum? Rotating the engine while looking at the drum might reveal a cracked drum (I hope you're not that unfortunate) that will grab under light pressure from a too-tight adjustment but give way under full-engagement conditions.

As for B., the actuation system is not typically prone to immediate failure. Your symptoms don't seem to indicate that either the camshaft or the bolt have worn appreciably in such a short distance. But it might be worthwhile to check the strength of your return spring, to make sure the band isn't engaging under "normal" type adjustment conditions.

As for C., the high speed clutch system is tremendously easy to isolate from your problem. To determine if the high speed clutch or the low band is causing your drag, simply disable the high speed clutch - disconnect the connecting link between the "C" pedal and wire the arm so that the clutch is permanently, totally disengaged - so that the spring CANNOT act on the clutch fingers. If that isn't enough for you, back off the adjustments on the clutch fingers so that the spring can't act on the fingers. Then you'll be able to play around with low - and low only - until you're satisfied that you have it working reliably and properly.

I can sympathize with you; I had a cylinder that dropped last week - but would pick up under load - after showing good mechanical readings (45 lbs. compression) and changing every single low and high tension component in the system - timer, wires (both LT and HT), coilbox wood, etc., etc. Turned out it was a bad exhaust valve spring. Drove me up the wall.

Good luck -

Luke Chennell


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