Hot exhast manifold

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Hot exhast manifold
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Culp on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 11:05 pm:

When I start my '15 T with a '19 engine the exhast manifold gets red hot almost instantly.
I have replaced the timing gear, cleaned the exhast pipe, removed the head and the valves look to be opening and closing at the proper times.
What am I missing? any ideas?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 11:11 pm:

It may be running to lean Rich up the carb some.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Culp on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 11:40 pm:

thanks: I've done that also. I had it so rich that it loaded up. any other Ideas welcome.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 11:52 pm:

Sounds like your timing may be off a notch or two.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 11:54 pm:

What kind of carb are you running?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Culp on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 11:57 pm:

I've lined up the dot on the big gear with the Ford on the small gear. what way would I move it and how many notches?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Culp on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 11:59 pm:

Holley NH carb.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 08:46 am:

Kim,

The marks on the timing gear and crankshaft align to set the cam timing. The thing that makes the exhaust manifold glow red hot is retarded ignition timing. Are you pulling the spark lever 1/2 way down immediately after starting? If not then you get a red hot manifold.

If it is red hot even after pulling the lever down then the timer rod / lever / timer relationship is screwed up somehow. Typically the problem is a bent spark rod but also you need to know that some timers can cause retarded spark compared to other timers. So you need to check the ignition timing to be sure that spark hapens a couple degrees after TDC with the lever all the way up.

To check you turn off the ignition, disconnect all the plug wires and remove the forward most spark plug. Use a pencil or other object that fits through the hole to see when the piston comes up to TDC on the compression stroke (i.e both valves closed).

When you see the piston just begin to go down, turn on the ignition and observe that the #1 coil is buzzing just a bit past TDC, not earlier and not later. If it is not exactly at this point then you need to adjust something to make it happen at exactly this point.

Royce


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 10:46 am:

If the cam/crank gears are timed and mixture at the carb is right and spark timing is right (double check that one), you may have an intake manifold leak.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Culp on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 09:38 pm:

thanks for the ideas. I checked the timing and the intake. Started the engine and it still the exhast manifold gets red hot within 2 minutes.
Any more things I can try?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 10:59 pm:

Kim,is the lever on the left side of steering cloumn all the way up or part way down when this happens?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Culp on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 12:53 am:

The lever on the left is half to 3/4 the way down when it gets hot. This afternoon I reset the timing as Royce suggested. I had the timing set 21/2" from the rod to the bolt on the generator. It is now 23/4". Any more ideas welcome.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John T. Tannehill III on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 01:03 am:

You wouldn't happen to be using premium gas would you?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 01:47 am:

Kim:

Hate to keep harping on the same subject but your dimensions of the timer adjustment are NOT a guarantee that you have the timing correct and retarded timing does exactly what you are witnessing. Since your car is a '15 it is very easy to check the timing without any tools. Do the following:

1) Pull spark lever all the way up to full retard.
2) Turn ignition switch to BAT
3) If a coil is buzzing, pull the engine over slowly with hand crank until the buzzing stops
4) Now ever so slowly turn the engine over by pulling the hand crank up and immediately STOP when you hear buzzing of any coil. If you think you pulled PAST the point of first buzzing then pull ahead till the very NEXT time you hear buzzing and STOP. The idea is to stop the crank movement at the exact point when buzzing begins on ANY coil.
5) Pull the handle of the crank BACK out of the engine and look below the radiator at the crank shaft pulley pin that your hand crank was engaging. It should be almost horizontal but be ever so slightly lower on the right hand side. If Horizontal pin is basically 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock position then correct timing would be at about 9:15-3:15 position or just barely down on the right side. If you are at 10:00-4:00 position or later then THAT is your PROBLEM since your initial timing is retarded. That PIN will be exactly horizontal every time one of the pistons is exactly at TOP DEAD CENTER. That crank shaft pin hole is the indexing hole that the crankshaft is ground to so it is DEAD accurate. This method of checking/setting your timing does NOT depend on what kind of timer you are using. It is the same for ALL brands and models of timers. Warning - if you advance the timing, check it again this way since you DO NOT want the timing to be with the pin horizontal or slightly UP on the right side since that means firing of the mixture BEFORE top dead center and that will cause the engine to spin backwards and could cause injury. To advance the timing you will neeed to SHORTEN the rod between the timer and the spark lever bellcrank.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James R. Patrick on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 08:37 am:

Some Model T's, like mine, start very easily using the crank (I've had mine start on just 1/8 of a turn as soon as it hit the first charged cylinder), so It might be a good idea to turn off the gas and run the gas out of the carb before attempting John's suggestion, or as you are trying to check things out by slowly turning the crank, the car might suddenly start. If you experience a backfire when it does, you could wind up with some severe damage to your cranking arm. Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 08:10 pm:

Just take off the sparkplug wires.

Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Saltsgaver on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 09:18 pm:

Timing....John,does this mean that the goal of your instructions is to have the timing be "neutral" (not advanced or retarded) when the lever is all the way up?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 09:55 pm:

Mike, How did you derive that from John's post?? A litle past 3 or 9 is just after TDC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 10:45 pm:

John is right. I would only add this. The right side is as you face the car from the front. That would put the lower side of the pin on the driver's side of a U. S. car. You want it to fire just after TDC with the lever up.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 11:09 pm:

Isn't that what I said on Sunday? Must be an echo in here....

Royce


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 11:10 pm:

Mike
Then intent is to have the timer make contact with any given coil contact with the spark lever all the way up at about 7-15 degrees ATDC.
Every 15 minutes of the clock hour hand of the crank pin is 7.5 degrees so when the crank pin is exactly horizontal the piston is at TDC. Hence when one end of the crank pin is at hour 3 and 15 minutes and the other end at 9 hours and 15 minutes the piston is at 7.5 degrees after TDC. Additionally when one end of the crank pin is at hour 3 and 30 minutes and the other end at 9 hours and 30 minutes the piston is at 15 degrees after TDC.
The only differnece between these two locaions is the place you have to set the spark lever when hand crank starting on magneto.
You may want to study the following article for details.
Model T Ford Spark Timing
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Culp on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 12:28 am:

Thanks again
tonight I was able to try what John said. It is not heating on 2 and 4 cylinders, #3 is still heating up but not as quickly.
This is my first Model T and it is a real challenge.
Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 01:05 am:

Kim:

I am going to assume that you spent a bit of time and have the initial timing now RIGHT ON THE MONEY at 9:15/3:15 using the pin method. This is ONLY the INITIAL timing. Once the T starts, you then pull the lever well down to advance it and then flip the switch to MAG for running which assumes the magneto works. Next try to richen up the mixture a bunch by turning the carb adjustment counter clockwise till the engine starts to "blubber" with the rich mixture. Turn it then back ONLY a small amount till it smooths out. In other words - run it rich for now. See if that cools things off. You can't really HURT an engine by running it rich but you CAN hurt it by running it lean. Until you get all the bugs out - stay on the rich side of the mixture adjustment.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mick on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 12:45 pm:

Just an interesting note.
When ever someone mentions timing as "on the money" I wonder where the term came from (?)
I restored a 1944 Indian Chief Motocycle. And the timing marke was a "$" sign.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 06:36 pm:

Now THAT is interesting to me. I have a friend who restored and still has a 1940 era 4 cylinder Indian. I will have to ask him about that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 08:36 pm:

If the engine is very overheated, almost to the point of seizing there will be a noticeable ping. Better check your cooling system
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Culp on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 12:44 am:

HI
I want to thank everyone for their help.
After timing it to the 9:19/3:15 position it was doing better but still running hot on the #3 cylinder. After much flustration and a few choice words I took the manifold off. The intake manifold was slightly off center and on the back 2 cylinders it had a slight gap. after replacing the manifolds it is now running cooler and idling smoother. I don't know why the the #3 was hot and the #4 was not but it works now.
Thanks again for the help


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