I have a 13 touring car that needs either a new, or restoration of the old, radiator. However, I believe the radiator is a 12 (no "Made in USA"). The car has a "B" engine. The question is, to assume the 12 radiator was original on the " B" engine car and have it restored, or to buy a reproduction 13 to have it look more technically correct?

I would assume that the radiator is original. Parts were used up, so it is very possible to have what we call the 1911-12 radiator on a 1913 style Model T. The Model Ts with the B engines seem to have been made early in the model year. A 1913 style radiator would not always be technically correct on an early 1913. For example, I have seen 1915 Model Ts with one or more lettered pedals, which are "1914" and earlier. What came on a Model T from the factory is always correct.

Charles,

I agree with Darel, that if the car came from the factory that way – feel free to keep it that way. Of for that matter if you like the way it is – keep it that way. My cut off didn’t come from the factory that way – but I may decide to keep it a cut off because that is the way I grew up with it as a kid. Lots of fond memories.

But what is your goal for the car? If you want a good driver – and you plan to use it primarily up north (your profile says Maine) then you can get away with a much less efficient radiator than someone who lives in Arizona etc. I.e. even though the radiator is less efficient with time (corrosion etc.) it doesn’t need to be as efficient up there. An for a driver any brass radiator from 1909-1916 fits the hood shape just fine and the tubing for the gas lights can always be worked out.

On the other hand if you want to make it as close to the way it probably left the Ford factory some of the information below may help you. For most Ts we will never know for sure how they left the factory or even which factory in many cases. There are some exceptions such as serial number 1119 shipped Mar 3, 1909 through serial number 70,702 shipped Sep 29, 1911 that have the original shipping documents available. They list body, lights, horn, coil box, windshield, etc. Another exception would be the very original and documented cars with a known history such as the Rip Van Winkle 1917 etc. But for most of us, our cars are not in either of those two categories. In that case we usually shoot for making it “typical” for the model year and time it was produced.

In the case of your car – do you have a good reason to believe the radiator and engine are both the ones that came with the car? For many T’s one or both of those have been replaced along the way sometime in the distant (or even last week) past. If you don’t have a good reason to believe they are the original – I would suggest you look at the car and try to determine what was probably original or typical for it. Using that approach with my 1915 cut off – it became clear that my cut off most likely started life as an actual 1915 touring. Lots of pieces had been replaced by later parts (fenders, windshield hinges, front wheels, bolts replaced rivets in the front cross member, later 1916 etc.). But so many of the items lined up with the 1915 origin – block but stamped with the 1915 serial number even though it was a 1916 block, the rear axle, the windshield brackets, the door latch, the E&J brass headlamp rim, E&J # 8 side lights, E&J #9 tail light, the correct 1915-16 coil box, 1915 steering column, etc. Do I know for certain that someone didn’t build it up from parts in 1960? Yes, because my Dad purchased it in the un-restored condition as a used car back in the 1950s. Well do I know it was not made up from parts in 1930 – no – I don’t. But as I work to put the car back to more and more “typical Apr 1915” state, there are lots of clues to help me decide which parts were being used, which had been discontinued, and which had not yet been made (such as the very nice 1923-25 style front fenders). Note Ford made many running changes – that had more to do with the time a part was upgraded than when the model year changed. The USA production lettered pedals, transitioning to the ribbed, transitioning to the smooth are an example of that.
JUL 29 1914 Acc. 1701, Box 2, Ford Archives
“We have called for the fillet with 1/8” radius at point where pedal connects with foot pad. Also removed letters and replaced pyramids with ridges running lengthwise of pad. This change was made to prevent feet from sliding off pedals and is to take place in all dies when they are being constructed at the present time, and on all other dies when they are being re-sunk. We will, of course, use up the forgings which we have on hand.” (Joseph Galamb). Note: the actually change to the ribbed pedals came later in the year. The ribs were discontinued sometime after March 1915.
So for my “typical Apr 1915 – based on the current information we have, I could use either the ribbed or the more typical plain pedals. And for the early 1915 cars they were still using those lettered pedals. But Ford was still producing them new at that time and it is documented that is the case. See: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1915.htm and also see page 68 of Clymer’s “Henry’s Wonderful Model T” which shows a Jan 26, 1915 factory photo of the new touring with two lettered pedals and the brake pedal is ribbed. [Caution: Clymer’s “Henry’s Wonderful Model T” is a great read, lots of great pictures, stories, etc. but has proven to have many in accuracies that were discovered after it was printed (such as the claim that 1915s came from the factory with brass bell hand klaxon horns etc.) But the factory photos – and the jokes are great!]

For your radiator question some things to consider. Is your car the typical 1913 model year or does it have a lot of transition parts from late 1912? Does your radiator have the “Holes in the sides for the gas lamp hose, with a soldered-in-place pipe from side to side for the headlamp gas?” That was introduced in mid-1912 so if it doesn’t have that – it indicates the radiator is even earlier rather than just a late 1912. That would also mean it probably was a replacement rather than from the factory. Bruce shares at:

http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc12.htm


APR 16, 1912 Acc. 1701, Releases, Ford Archives
T1141 (Radiator front wall)
"Made in USA" to be placed on this part (radiator). Extreme care should be taken not to cut the letters clear thru the metal."

And Bruce shares more at:
http://mtfca.com/encyclo/P-R.htm#rad

1911-1912
Higher cast filler neck style which was introduced in summer of 1910. About January, 1911, a hole for the choke rod was added to the left front side trim piece. Beginning in about October, 1911, the drawings indicate holes for the rivets which now secured the filler neck to the top tank. Standard “Ford” script without “Made in USA.” Newer seamed construction, typical of all later brass radiators. Radiators now all made by Ford. The “Ford” on the radiator core was not used after late 1910. In mid-1912 holes were added in the sides for the gas lamp hose, with a soldered-in-place pipe from side to side for the headlamp gas. “Made in USA” under “Ford” script was added about April 16, 1912.
1912-1916
Spun-brass filler neck, riveted and soldered in place During 1914 the name plate on the back of the upper tank was eliminated and was replaced by embossing the design in the tank wall itself. In 1915 the gas tube for the lamps was eliminated. Filler cap had short fins. In 1915, too, the flanges of the side wall where they overlap the frame were made shorter. The embossing on the rear of the top tank was again changed and now indicated the month and year the radiator was manufactured.
ENGINE SERIAL NUMBERS: 157,425 to 348,735 approx. B-1 to B-12,247 built between October 1, 1912 and January 1, 1913. There is a gap of 12,247 numbers somewhere between 157,425 and 170,000.
MODEL YEAR DATES: September 1912 to August 1913 approx.
http://mtfca.com/encyclo/11-12Ser.htm for a great explanation of the B engine serial numbers They list Aug 28 and Sep 26 as the first two documented sales (not the date manufactured) for a B-serial numbered car. (There may have been others – the data is not complete). [Note there are still lots of details to learn and confirm about the Ts. In this case the earlier information indicates that the B engines were first built in Oct 1912 but the shipping documentation that was found later indicates one was shipped on Aug 28 1912. One or both of the dates are inaccurate or they had a time machine and moved an engine that was made in Oct back to Aug so it could be sold. But the idea is the same – a B engine car would normally be a 1913 Model year. By the way – as folks do additional research at the archives, on original early photos, original cars, etc. – hopefully more information will be found that will help clarify how the cars were produced. ]

Based on the very little research above, I would recommend that if you are going to purchase a new radiator – purchase the one with the “made in the USA” on it. I believe it would very easy to document that it would have been likely to have been originally assembled with that radiator base on the earliest B-engine shipping date of Aug 28, 1912 and the change card/info for the radiator to add the “made in the USA” of Apr 16, 1912. That was 5 months between those two dates for the factory to switch over. Again, if you know that car originally shipped with that radiator – great—feel free to replace it with the same type. Also since you live in Maine – I would go with the round tube unless you plan to tour further south in which case the flat tube would be a more functional choice.

Good luck and if you have some additional details to share, please let us know. And pictures are always nice.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout

Hap did they ever find the rip van winkle Ford? I was under the impression that it had been thoroughly photographed and examined but then lost to some mystery owner?

What I say is from personal experience. Having an original radiator restored ie recorded, is a waste of time and money and and results in the ruin of an original piece. While cheaper, more likely than not, the radiator will no longer fit on the frame and hood. Keep the radiator with the car and purchase a Brass Works radiator. Now I am sure many will chime in exhaulting how well their recored radiator works for them, but even if what has happened to me has a chance of happening to you, is it worth the risk?

The Rip Van Winkle Ford has not been lost. As of a year or so ago it was located in Bakersfield, California. The car was featured in the Vintage Ford many years ago and that article has been reproduced in my Comprehensive Encyclopedia CD (along with over 3000 pages of other T material).

Putting a new core in a 100 year old radiator is like buying a suit with two pairs of pants and tearing a hole in the coat. You still have a problem that you are trying to avoid.

This is a little off the subject but this summer a friend in Bozeman bought a 1917 touring car that is as close to an undisturbed original as could be imagined. Almost a Rip Van Winkle car. He has it in storage. I could not get my camera to work but he took dozens of pictures of it. The basic story is that the car was sold in the spring of 1917 in the little town and has had but two owners since, the last one from 1940 to 2007. The side curtains are rolled up under the back seat, the tool kit is there, the owner (if you can believe this) did not even have an extra coil for it. The car never had a starting battery, it was run on the mag all its life, etc., etc., As near as we could tell, the only thing that had ever been replaced on the car were two coils and the tires. I drove it 12 1/2 miles to his farm as he does not know how to drive a T. Except for the radiator leaking down on the timer and getting it wet it ran fine and would go down the road 30-35. What a great day!!! What a treasure to own. I am trying to get him to take it to Indiana for the 2008 gathering next summer but I doubt that it will happen.

Thanks to all who responded. From the info i have received, I belive the radiator is an early or mid 12. No holes for gas line, no "Made In USA", BUT has 3 rivet neck. I guess for authenticity sake I would be best to get a Brassworks 13 style.

Authentic to what?

How the car was supposed to have been built according to the available documentation?
-or-
Authentic to how it may have been for a long time?

What do you know about the history of the car? Has it been previously restored?

Also, why is it "gospel" that the only way to properly restore a car is to something resembling as built/sold new condition?

Charles, based on the info above, I'd bet that you're car still has it's original radiator. I'd replace it with one identical to the one it has now. I've recently heard from two separate, reliable sources that Brassworks will build you a new radiator but they'll install your original back tank panel. That way, you can keep your original radiator serial number.