This goes back to the thread about the screw found in the oil.

Does anyone have clue as to why Ford went for a internal, flywheel mounted magneto instead of an external one, like everyone else.

Alex

My guess would be that he didn't have to pay royalties on an external mag and this way he didn't need a heavy flywheel, he so called killed two birds with one stone.

Of course this is just a guess.

My guess is that he did it so that when the endplay in the crank got excessive, the mag would become almost useless and he could sell you new babbitt.

Don't think that the old man didn't think about himself.

Ford has a better idea - I guess they always have!

Seth

Alex
When the Model T was designed in 1908 most low cost automobiles used dry cell batteries to power trembler ignition coils. That was a constant problem as the dry cell batteries slowly went dead. Some folks used two sets of batteries, but this only extended the inevitable.
Only higher priced cars used the very expensive high tension magneto.
The introduction of an internal ignition power source free of batteries (the flywheel ac generator which was mandated by Henry Ford in the Model T design) to power the engine ignition and was considered a great improvement from previous cars.
Unfortuantely by the end of Model T production technology had surpassed this original technogical improvement.
Ron the Coilman

Seth
I see in your hiatus nothing much has changed in the your approach to Forum replies.
If you want your input on this Forum to be taken seriously by the group at large try posting informed comments.
Not rambling garbage.
Ron the Coilman

Ron,

Thanks, I had a feeling you'd have the answer. In Steinbeck's "Cannery Row" they steal a doorbell battery to get a Model T started. When we moved to San Diego in '55 we rented an old house till the new one was finished (I'm sitting there now), It had a battery that had no purpose but to ring the doorbell.

Alex

Ron,

You may consider it rambling garbage, but I don't and others may not. Ford could have used an internal flywheel magneto with the stator (field coils) arranged radially like all are done today. Output would not have been affected by axial play in the crankshaft, the inertia could have been matched, and setting one up wouldn't be the task that it is.

More people today would have working mags and you likely wouldn't have time to repair starters and generators.

I don't care one bit that you don't like my opinion that I'm entitled to have, but it isn't rambling garbage.

Seth

Seth
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but that was then, this is now.
Today your revolutionary opinions about Model T original design is nothing more than rambling garbage.
See you Reid.
Ron the Coilman

Ron, your own rambling garbage about an otherwise comedic jest always brings down the topic. If your "See you Reid" is meant to be funny, you missed the mark and simply adds to the problem. I miss Reid Welsh's commentary and intelligence. His thinking was revolutionary as well but he still added benefits to the forum. It's a shame that when someone isn't thinking Concourse answers all the time as you do that you have to belittle or otherwise argue needlessly.

Sit back, relax and enjoy the occasional fun in an otherwise arduous campaign to keep this site under your control.

Ron,

George Westinghouse built alternators with radially-arranged stators in the day of the T as has everyone since then except Ford with the T.

Not exactly revolutionary. Then or now.

Why didn't you just tell me to buzz off as you've done before? You might as well have.

Seth

Ron & Seth,

I'm sitting here with my hands over my ears singing "Yes, we have no bananas" same as when my parent's argued.

You both have to sit back & take a deep breath.

Ron,

Since you rebuilt my coils, the '27's running like a Swiss Watch, quarter turn on Mag & she starts like a champ. Got pulled over a couple of weeks ago for going 45 in a 25 mile zone, showed the officer I had no speedometer, he smiled & told me just to go with the flow of traffic & let me go.

Seth,

Tried something diffrent with the Pasta Sauce, threw a couple of spoonfulls of capers it it, gave it an extra tang.

You once told me to "just make a lasagna, & relax" well, back at you.

Alex

As a research college prof. I have spent much ofthe last 30 years reading what others have written. Like many others before me I have found Henry Ford to be a fascinating subject both as a person & as the man who arguably put the world on wheels. There is ample evidence to support the views that Ford was both a visionary in terms of mass production & designing a simple product with some relitivly unique features that could be mass produced,distributed & sold in great volume as well as being in his later years rigid & perhaps a bit unable or unwilling to recognize the need for change. In a word he was "human" The details of this very diverse man are well documented. I found the recent volume Wheels For The World to be well researched & a good read & it gave me additional insights into this fascinating man.
I have often wondered if Ford had lived 10 more years if The Ford Motor Co would have survived in its current form. yet this does not diminish his contributions. I am not an engineer but my extensive reading of those I respect on "Ford" has led me to conclude that Henry Fords contributions far exceeded his well documented & very human flaws. When you take a long hard look at the Model T you see a great deal of advanced thinking as well as a few "why did he do it that way issues" The car was light in weight compared to other cars, easily owner repaired, the beneficiary of one of the first extensive dealer & service networks etc.
If Ford had to be forced into letting go of his beloved creation by market forces, as research indicates he was it needs to be remembered that he also gave us the first inexpensive high production V8 engines. He was a man of huge talant as well as many contradictions, & his vehicles reflected both characteristics. I recall my late fathers disgust when he purchased a '48 Ford & wondered why Ford put the starter button on the left side of the dash when most drivers were right handed.
Still with all the hills & valleys of a company in it second century on balance I think Henry left a very positive legacy & I personally feel that what he could have done or might have thought of or failed to correct was much less important than the things he did do.
I will close on a humorous note. My late father(1900-1987) who knew nothing about mechanical things & didnot want to, never bought another Ford after the aforementioned starter switch matter. He always bought six cylinder Chevrolets which botherd his teen age son(myself) since I wanted to get my hands on a Flat Head ford v8 & put the gas pedal to the floor.Years later I talked him into buying an Edsel. That was the last time he ever sought my advice on cars.
Edward R. Levy

I read many years ago in an old book that a regular magneto cost the same as a complete engine.
The flywheel mag was a big reason that Ford could build their cars for so little money.
Other cheap cars ran off a battery and when the battery went dead the car went dead.
They didn't have generators yet and remember that the mag on the T also ran the headlights on some years.

Hey Ron, is that coil tester still up for me, l will be over with a few Aussies next year, how long will l need to stay and how long will the full instructional course take ?

Cheers David. Australia.

I'm not fond of the internal magneto for reasons of service access and if something does come apart one has to remove the engine. The sensible thing that should have been done is to continue the method used in the Model N; the optional external low voltage DC generator (belt or chain driven I can't remember) which powered the coils. Gets rid of the critical coil adjusmtents and notchy timing control for one thing, and if it dies it's easy to get at. If and when my engine comes out the magneto won't be going back in.

1911:


Ford people designed and built the internal low tension magneto. Henry could as well have built an external low or high tension magneto, but for patent royalties. Did Henry pay royalties on any part of the T, besides the planetary tranny?
Thanks to Selden, he really hated those, but that didn't stop him from getting patents - even on the internal low tension magneto, for which there was no prior art. It was unprecedented. It also had to be expensive to build. What was the dealer price for a coil ring and set of magnets?

Thanks to their clever snap action points, a set of dry cells was good for 1500 miles with the Atwater-Kent Unisparker disturbutor, so the internal low tension magneto and trembler coils could never be justified based on cost to produce, run or maintain.

The internal low tension magneto and buzz coils were novel, and are unique to the T, but I bet they were never cost competitive.

rdr

ed, my father was 32 when he bought his first car. it was a 1947 kaiser fraser manhatten,the first slab side car.(no running boards) it had a starter button on the left side of the steering wheel. i never heard him say anything about it. he always thought highly of the car. it was also the first car to have a skinny v belt, which his mechanic laughed when he saw it,and told him he better get another for a replacement. he did and he threw it in the trunk. when my father sold the car 8 yrs later it was still in the trunk. in 1963 i was deer hunting the triangle (upstate ny) near a friends junk yard, and saw my fathers old car. yes it was my fathers. for it still had his initials in a small frame on the dash. i opened the trunk, and there in plane site was the new fan belt. guy

Ken
No disrespect intended, but apparently you and I view the purpose of this Forum differently?
I see it as a place where other Model T’ers can come to ask serious questions and get the advantage of the knowledge and experience of others who are willing to share it.
Cynical nonsense posing as a reply to a serious question is out of line. Furthermore, no one has enough Model T knowledge to answer every question and making useless contributions to every Forum thread for the apparent sole purpose of their own amusement is out of line. Sure, a bit of levity is fine, but only when it is made clear it is just that; levity and not a well thought out or informed response to a serious question.
When I see the kind of nonsense mentioned above going on here I am going to have my say and don't give a damn what you or anyone else think about it.
Ron the Coilman

No disrespect taken and I admire your constant and frivolous complaints about having fun with the Model T. It shows you are entirely business. Keep up the good work and have your say but kindly keep your profanity in check. There's a few of us still left with moral standards and enjoy a laugh or two.

I have no comment on Ford's design or reasoning behind the flywheel mounted magneto but it certainly is a funny joke. You keep many viewers afraid to post by your prevailing wisdom and knowledge. And you certainly entertain many with their need for amusement. Too bad it's not fun. I hope you enjoy your T more than this forum.

Ken
I enjoy this Forum and always do my absolute best to give good advice on the few subjects I know extremely well. Where my comments on the original question would only be conjecture or opinion I remain silent.
You would be surprized at the number of telephone calls I receive seeking help and the first thing the caller says is; they want don't want to raise the question here and have to listen to proselytising.
And, I will admit to having trouble checking myself when respondents post drivel that contributes nothing, is solely for their amusement or when it turns into sanctimonious, holier than thou moralizing.
Now you go ahead and have the last word as I know you will, but I will not allow you to bait me any further.
Ron the Coilman
p.s. If you dig into the Reid issue you will find out the facts you don't know.

"Did Henry pay royalties on any part of the T, besides the planetary tranny?"

Did Ford pay royalties on the planetary transmission? If so to whom and what did the patent cover. Based on the pre-1910 cars at Old Car Festival it seems like a planetary gear transmission was the most popular design in early cars.

Ron,
Some of us would say you need to "pull the stick out buddy", "go back to bed and get up on the right side" "chew on some nice pills"

choose the best one that fits......

Lets play nice in the sand box guys and gals

Message from The Old Country:
Quit squabbling!
I enjoy and respect the inputs I read from Ron, Seth and many others. I like the mixture of good information and humour. And on a scale of Zero-to-asteroid-collides-with-earth the above rates pretty low in importance.
As for the original question; I understand why Henry put the magneto into the 1909 Model T. What I have never understood is why he kept it after about 1920. By then, he didn't have to use an HT magneto as distributors and coils were well established - and remember that more Ts were made after 1920 than before. He could have saved millions in production costs and made the car more reliable. He had already conceded having a starter and dynamo - why not finish the job?
I'm still keeping the original system on my '26 Coupe - but only because it was made that way.

I'm also interested in the epicyclic question, because Ford was a friend of the Lanchester brothers in the UK and bought at least two of their cars (between 1907 and 1910 and in 1922). Fred Lanchester produced the first British car in 1895 - and all his cars had epicyclic transmissions. However, the first cycle hub gears appeared before 1900, so it wasn't an original idea. I've often wondered whether they adopted it independently and then found themsleves kindred spirits, or whether Fred influenced Henry. Lanchester also devised his own LT flywheel magneto - before 1905.

Hi, Edward. My first car was a '47 Mercury, a very similar car to your dad's '48 Ford. I always thought the starter button was on the left so as to leave the right hand free to operate the choke. I thought it was pretty handy.

Webster defines a magneto as a magnetoelectric machine, especially an alternator with permanent magnets used to generate current for the ignition of an internal-combustion engine. The Model T Magneto is a magneto by that definition, but in name only, the way most people consider a magneto as a self contained device capable of producing an ignition spark. It could have been more correctly called an AC Generator. Magneto royalties would not be a problem, if it went to court and I was on the jury.