Cdn Engine Ser # C567072 = what year?

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Cdn Engine Ser # C567072 = what year?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.M.Head on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 02:14 am:

I know not the same as us #'s. Anyone care to venture an opinion?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By peter kable on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 03:16 am:

Its date is 1925.

C600,000 was made on 2nd Nov 1925 so its just before that about Sept Oct.

Look next to the number for the casting date.

It's cast in a circle it should have two numbers and a letter of the alphabet most likely C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.M.Head on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 08:51 am:

thanks! was erroneously advertised as a 1914 - measure twice, cut once, as the saying goes....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Boivar, Ohio on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 10:10 am:

That is a great deal on an engine, but sure is in an "out of the way" place! Dang it anyway! lol Good luck on your bidding.

Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 10:17 am:

Bob,

That is an easy mistake to make -- that number WITHOUT the "C" would have been a USA 1914 engine. A lot of folks haven't heard that the Canadian numbers were the same as the USA numbers until they started their own "C" prefix numbers in 1913.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC. (Note I only know of a single Ford of Canada assembled with USA parts and Canadian parts. It belongs to Vince Iaccino and has an "A" prefix on the engine serial number. Does anyone know of any other Canadian NRS Fords or information about them?)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.M.Head on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 12:15 pm:

I agree, an honest mistake., and that is why this forum is so useful!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 04:44 pm:

Hap,
When my grandfather restored our Queen car in the 1950's,the neighbour had a 1906 N ford that was saved out of the local town's riverbank.Here is a couple of photos of it.I could find out the serial number if you can use it.The car is still owned by the same family.It is a Canadian N.The 1st is a promo photo from a Canadian magazine ad in 1960,and the next photo is of a local parade in 1957.Last photo is from the mid 60's.Note all the car show and club plaques on firewall.I see an HCCA badge.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Cook on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 04:50 pm:

Did Canadian production cease before or after the U.S. in 1927?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 09:45 pm:

Chris,

Short answer – I don’t have anything that clearly documents when Canadian Model T Ford auto production ended. Note, even if we did have a good date for the end of Canadian Model T production at the main factory we still would not know when the last Model T Canadian or USA was assembled at their respective branch plants.

If anyone has some documentation on when the last Canadian Model Ts were produced, please let us know the dates and the references.

Longer answer:

The last Ford Motor Company newly produced Model T Fords were the T-100 project conceive in 1998 and 6 “newly manufactured” 1914 year model cars were displayed for the 2003 Ford Centenial. See: http://www.vmcca.org/bh/T-100%20story.pdf

The last USA Model T automobile (not TT truck) produced at the Highland Park main plant was assembled around the end of d the end of May 1927. Depending on the reference “The 1929 Ford Industries Book” on page 6 says May 25, 1927 (which I disagree with). That book is available as a reprint titled “The Matchless Model A.” Some say May 26, 1927 see: http://www.asmenews.org/archives/backissues/apr05/features/405lmark.html (which I also disagree with – it was the date for the 15,000,000 car but not necessarily the last car). And what is often a reliable source The Henry Ford at: http://www.thehenryford.org/exhibits/fmc/chrono.asp also has May 26, 1927 listed – which if we can supply them with a better date and the rationale/documentation – they will gladly make a correction (or with other dates they have made corrections). Others put the last Model T car assembled at the main Highland Park plant as serial number 15,007,033 assembled Jun 1, 1927. See: http://www.modelt.org/tcars.html and scroll down to 1927. Also see page 536 of Bruce’s book where he qualifies his entry with “A car bearing the engine number of 15,007,022 is reputed to be the last Model T Ford produced.” It appears that the USA engines produced during the remainder of 1927 (most likely at the River Rouge Plant) were listed “truck” ref page 536 of Bruce’s book. That implies to me that truck production probably continued – but someone else may be able to confirm that one way or the other rather than my assumption.

But the assembly plants in the USA continued to produce Model T Automobiles until they used up the stock pile of parts which would have been already sent to them or perhaps could have been sent to them the last day the Highland Park plant was also producing Ts. And we don’t know when the last USA Assembly plant assembled the last T automobile.

Again I could not locate a good date for the end of the main manufacturing plant for Canadian Model Ts. So if anyone else has that – please let us know.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter, SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 10:23 pm:

Darren,

Thanks so much for posting. YES! Please find out as much as you can about the car. Ok – if it turns out to be a USA production car – I would still like to know about it, but it doubles the number of Canadian production Model N Fords that I know of! I looked through my HCCA 2002 roster but I did not see any one with a last name of Smith and a NRS Ford listed in Canada. He may be in one of the older rosters. And I wonder if his car was featured in any of the previous HCCA magazines?

Note that the radiator on his car appears to be very similar in shape to the N shown in the Jul 11, 1906 Horseless Age article.



The flat-top part of the hood is wider than the standard production cars. One of the more common standard production radiators is shown below. It is also the style that Brass Works is reproducing.



The current owners might be interested in our 1903-1909 Early Ford Registry site at: http://www.earlyfordregistry.com/ Also, for a USA serial number we have a 1 in 4 chance of finding when and where the car was originally shipped. For some of the early cars & chassis, there is a slim chance we might have something in the accounts receivable listing that Trent Boggess produced (Early Ford Database). Thank you for sharing and for any additional information or leads you can provide.

If anyone else knows of any additional Canadian produced NRS Fords or literature about them, please let me know.

Respectfully Submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 06:59 pm:

Hap,
Ross Smith and my Grandfather were HCCA members in the 1950's and into the 1960's.They both passed away in the 1990's.The Smith family still has the car.I spoke to his son this evening and he said he would look up the number of the car at his earliest convenience.He seemed to think that the engine number started with the letter "A",but was not sure.He also thought it was a 3 or 4 digit number.As soon as I hear from him,I'll pass along the info.
I fondly remember seeing Ross chug around our town when I was a kid in that N. I remember that car would go like a cut cat!They always referred to the car as a 1906.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 08:58 pm:

Darren,

Thanks for checking. If you have a chance, please ask him to look for a body/ID tag on the front seat heel panel. Below is a reproduction that Darel Leipold made and the type that was used on the USA Model NRS and early Ts.



I cannot locate my picture of Vince’s body/ID tag. From memory, it was a rectangular shape and did not have the scalloped edges at the bottom. It was located in the same location as the USA cars and early Ts. Centered left and right on the front seat heel panel and about two inches or so below the seat cushion.

If he could take pictures that might help us document some of the Canadian features. For example Vince’s Model N has a slightly different top iron arrangement than the USA ones. With a sample size of “1” we don’t really know if that is unique for Canadian production or if it happens to be what was used on his car but that it was also used on other Non-Canadian cars.

Again thanks for any information you can help us gather. Note, Walkerville Canada was one of the locations that is listed in the Early Ford Data base. They list numerous Model N chassis and the date they were shipped to Walkerville up through Dec 10, 1906. Then they stop listing them. Theory for the night: Perhaps they stopped sending complete chassis and only sent some of the subparts after that? In Dec 1908 the list shows some Model Ts going to Walkerville – so the ledger continued but the shipments of NRS chassis and cars appear to have ended after Dec 1906.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steven miller on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 02:52 am:

Hap--serial c-748010 is highest in ford canada's manufacturing records,but sales records shows a 1927 coupe serial number c-748039
source; Herman L. Smith
Ford Canada Ltd
Historical Consultant
January, 1987
steve
p.s. if you want a copy of cdn. s/n please e-mail me and i will mail to you. sorry still do not know how to work my new scanner.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 08:20 am:

Steven,

Thanks for the update. Herman L. Smith did a lot to document the history of Fords in Canada. I'm trying to track down if he was able to write the book on the subject of the history of Ford of Canada that he sometimes mentioned in his articles. Do you remember the source of your material above?

Bruce in his book "The Model T Ford" on pages 540 - 546 has some of the Canadian serial numbers listed. It is a composite of information that Ford of Canada originally published (and as Bruce points out they either always began each month on an even serial number or they more likely rounded off/approximated the numbers). Some numbers are from the Ford Canada Archives [which I have heard moved to the Benson Ford Archives within the last year or so]; some are from the list published in "Ford Owner & Dealer (Jun 1922) [I'm 99% sure I have seen that list reprinted in one of the books the Vendors Sell -- but which one and page?]; Ford Service Bulletins (Canada); and those who responded sending in the actual serial number, casting date if known, and location for their Canadian engine.

Yes, if your list of Canadian serial numbers is an additional list I would like to obtain a copy. But there is no rush -- I so far behind on so many projects.... I can wait until you get the scanner figured out. If it is like mine, once you learn how to do the first one or two scans so they come out ok -- it turns out it is easy. I often ask my daughters -- they roll their eyes... but they can save me hours of frustration by pointing out the simple step I am often missing. Or if you would prefer to just mail it, I have sent you an e-mail with my address.

Again thank you so much for sharing. Every little puzzle piece helps me better understand things and hopefully I can use that to help others also.

Very Respectfully,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford Touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steven miller on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 10:17 am:

Hap, sending todays mail. ford canada closed its archives a couple years ago. i am sure much was lost during their move from walkerville-windsor to oakville during the 50's . the T was just an old car at the time not a collectible as it is today
steve
'26 early canadian coupe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 05:39 pm:

Steven,

Thank you so much for sending me the information, it arrived this weekend. Some of it is identical to what Bruce McCalley shares on page 539 in the chart “Production Figures” although he adds the numbers up for us (never do math in public). And Bruce points out the 458 Canadian cars manufactured in 1908 most likely were Model N & S rather than the Model T.

And on page 450 Bruce notes that the Ford of Canada archives had engine C1 produced on 20 May while the Ford Service Bulletins of Canada and The Ford Owner & Dealer Jun 1922 had it listed as produced 1 May. (not bad for almost 95 year old information). Bruce continues with additional numbers from the Ford of Canada archive’s in his listing with an “*” denoting that is where they came from. As Bruce shares on page 539 about the three different listings he used (Canadian Ford Archives, Ford Owner and Dealer Jun 1922 and the Canadian Ford Service Bulletins. None of these lists is believed to be accurate except in cases where indicated otherwise.

I don’t want to “muddy up the waters” by posting the information you sent just yet. I will scan it and forward it to Bruce for his review. This may be yet another list to add to his information – at least some of the numbers in it do not appear to be listed in his book.

What about Chris Cook’s question above, “Which ended first USA or Canadian production?” We still don’t know. As the records Steve sent are for “engine production” and we do not know if they were placed into cars or not. For the USA engine production, we know that automobile production ceased at the Highland Park plant near the end of May 1927 while they continued to produce the Model TT truck and T engines and USA branches continued to assemble cars until their supply of parts were used up. Ref page 536 of Bruce’s book. I would guess that the Windsor Historical society society might have a newspaper with a note or article about the last Canadian produced Model T Ford at the main plant. (Walkerville as well as the village that grew up around the Ford plant both became part of Windsor) Again, the sub-assembly plants would have continued to produce the cars to use up left over parts even after the main plant stopped producing cars.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 07:05 pm:

Hap,
Did you notice the rear left brake clevis is pointed down (as we discussed a while back) on the early N above? I am sure Trent or someone told me that was a feature on the very earlies Ns, that was quickly changed by positioning the clevis arm upright.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, February 04, 2008 - 06:39 am:

Rob,

No, I didn’t notice but I would sure like to notice. I went back and even looked and with my eyesight and no coffee yet – I don’t even see a brake rod. This is one of those items that would be of irrelevant for 99.9% of the folks – but for the very early Ns it would be nice if we could document it. And yes – you are more interested in it than anyone else on this site – that’s ok – one of the items we are very slowly working on is to capture the differences between the early Ns and the later more standard production. A similar situation took place with the early 1909 Ts – some things (water pump engine, head bolts on the engine, two lever transmission, etc) were different from the ones that became standard.

If you get a chance please send and/or post the picture you can see it on and put a circle around the area I should look. Try not to laugh – I know I should know where to look – but sometimes when you can’t see something very well, if folks can give you a point in the right direction I can see it also. Go ahead an circle the area– I’m doing good to see the wheels.

Also if anyone else has some early Model N photos that show the position of the emergency brake lever on the rear hubs, please send (just click on my name and my full e-mail is listed on my profile) and/or post. This is some of that Model T genealogy stuff. By the way – the rear brake drum and brake shoes will interchange on the NRS & T. The NRS style cast axle housings were much stronger than the early T rear axle housing. The 1915-25 rear axle housings have the same general outside appearance.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, February 04, 2008 - 07:04 am:

Rob,

If you are talking about the pictures that Darren posted -- please circle the area you saw the brake lever pointing down. If you mean the N shown in the Jul 11, 1906 Horseless Age article -- yes I see that one.



No I had not noticed it before. Thank you for pointing it out. That car was probably the same one that made the Jan 1906 New York auto show and has several features that did not make it into the standard production. But it is a great reference point. Every clue is helpful (and I think the coffee helps my eyesight -- once they are open I see better.)

If anyone else has any additional photos showing that bracket going down on an early N, please let us know. Thanks!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration