I have no holes in the new dash for my '13 as of yet. I have been doing the lay out and as i must get this right the first time I have been checking pictures and data from all over but I can not seem to find a picture of the steering column hole. I bolted the bracket to the frame that holds the column along with the wood block to help align it. I placed a piece of short steel tubing in the hole for the shaft and I can sliode this up and down as it is long enough it will come up and touch the wood firewall/dash. Now it would seem that if I drill the large hole at aprox 2.75" it places the hole very close to the left dash support to frame bracket and the 2 outboard small holes for the carriage bolts are behind this iron ? Could someone take a picture of this corner of the dash or get me a measurement or two ?

Here's a picture of an original dash from a 1914 touring. Notice that the top hole of the firewall bracket picks up the lower left bolt that attaches the steering column to the firewall. Also note someone slotted the firewall so the steering column can remain bolted to the chassis to make it easier to remove.

Royce

That steering column slot was done at the factory and is typical from 1912 through 1914 as is the extra carb adjuster hole being drilled on both sides of the dash.

Ed,

From a little experience with my Model N I would suggest making only the 2.75" hole before mounting the dash. This leaves some adjustment room to get the column location just perfect before drilling the 4 mounting holes for the flange.

Wow no kidding John? Does that cut appear on the original drawing? I also was wondering if both sets of cowl lamp holes were original or if someone changed from early to late lamps after the car was built?

Thanks,
Royce

Jerry,

The location of the steering column is determined by the firewall bracket. I don't know if a Model N has the same arrangement or not.

Royce

O.K. I see what you mean. No, a Model N is not like that.

I believe the slot does appear on the drawing, and if you look at original early assembly line photos of the dash assembly, you can see the slot there too.

John Regan knows more about the firewall that Ford did.

The side lamp bracket holes are slightly different from '13-'14, and that is probably why that hole is plugged.

Sorry; that should be "THAN Ford did."

Well that explains a lot as by my dead recconing the carriage bolt coming thru was going to hit the top of the dash iron and I was afraid that i would have to shift left or right to miss the bracket.I was pretty close to that top bolt hole. Thanks for the help guys! I would like to bring this car to the B-Day party next year.

The lamp bracket hole locations and size were the same as earlier T's until about July of 1914 when the lamps had the bracket as part of the lamp and those brackets necessitated a different hole location. The earlier 14 dash with the separate brackets had those bracket holes located at an angle to the sides and lower. The lamps that had the built in bracket used holes that were parallel to the dash sides and above the other holes. The location for those type lamp/brackets would be such that the top hole of the slanted mounting holes would be just above and inboard of the lower hole of the 2 hole pattern that the later lamps/bracket used. The early 1914 bracket used separately with the early 1914 lamps was a bracket that was different than the shape of the 1910-late 1913 bracket in that the bracket did not have the USUAL OFFSET bent LEDGE for the lamp to sit on. Instead the early 1914 bracket was simply wider at the ledge location. There is a picture of the various brackets on Fun Projects web site if you want to see the differences. Original brackets also were made of much heavier steel than the el cheapo repros that most people buy. Check the metal thickness of the brackets and if about 3/16" or thinner - they are NOT original. Original brackets are an ODD SIZE thickness (7/32" as I recall) that cannot be purchased ready made but must be blanchard ground to correct thickness from 1/4" stock. Just more trivia - take what you need/want and leave the rest.

Hello ED, l have attatched a full layout for you, note that when the holes for the column are drilled, that one is offset to the others, that is the one that also supports the bracket.
The hardest hole to master is the mixture adjustment , a hole drilled downward and outward at the same time, practise on an offcut many times until you are happy to proceed on the good one.
Hope thse help.






If you need addittional , email me and l'll throw a tape measure over it for you.
Cheers David Australia.

David:

The hole you show as "wrong" is actually in the CORRECT location starting on drawings dated July 18 of 1913.

Your coil box mounting holes appear to be the later ones too. Before 9/5/13 the holes were 5/8" diameter Like the typical 1912 one piece dash. The holes went from 5/8 to 9/32 diameter on the coil box mounting on 9/5/13 but then they had trouble with the staining process swelling the holes so they made them a bit larger to 19/64 in 1914 on April 4 to make assembly easier. Just more trivia. Take what you need - leave the rest.

Are these 13-14 dashes solid or plywood. And what is the source of the "page 29 " posted by Dan Haynes??

Hello John, l believe you are correct about the hole sizes, which seem to tie in with the cars age, late 1913 time frame ( august ) , the dash had some addittional but incorrect holes and fittings added when l purchased the car, but the steering columns must also have had to change from the incorrect hole ( as marked ) to the newer location, is there a mention of this , l am intrigued as to why the significany alteration.
Could this have been a strengthening to the previous column ?

Charles, the dash boards were a ply construction with the nice veneer on either face.

Cheers

David.

John, how do you re-drill the sidelamp bracket holes to convert the dash from the early separate-bracket lamp to the later one-piece ones? Can the holes be dowelled and re-drilled? Will the brackets cover them?

The dash cores were made originally from hardwood boards of random width glued edge to edge. The core has cherry veneer glued to the front and the rear face. The boards are oriented with the grain running top to bottom. The face veneer grain runs horizontally. That is whay they are always delaminated, the grains are fighting one another as they expand and contract.

Later steering columns have symetrical bolt pattern as shown in my '14 dash. The earlier columns with the forged lower end have the inboard hole lower than the hole that mates with the dash bracket. So the hole in David's dash appears to be in the correct place for a 1913 I think.

Royce

R.V.

I have never redrilled a dash and don't think Ford did either but perhaps they did at the very last days of transition. More likely they had both of them on hand for a good while since folks needing a replacement dash might need the "old" pattern. The later integral lamp bracket would only cover one of the holes on the front side of the dash since washers and nuts were used on the back side. Since the dashes were made from 5/8 thick solid core with 1/16 veneers on both sides, plugging the hole and making it NOT show would be just about impossible. One of the things I HATE about making show dashs for people is that just ONE MISTAKE and I get to start ALL OVER since both sides of the dash will show when installed. I usually make my show dashs on weekends when nobody is around and I toss the phone off the hook too because interruptions cause mistakes and/or the glue up process must be absolutely time controlled to make sure nothing shifts around or creeps off line. They are very rewarding when finished but scarey to build. The worst part is the carb adjuster hole which goes in LAST. For the later '12 through '14 dash you have to drill 2 of them to be authentic.

David:

Your dash is NOT original methinks which would explain the incorrect hole. I am basing this on the lack of the steering column SLOT in the dash like the other dash picture. That slot began at least a full year before your late 1913 car and continued for all of the 1914 dashs. Likely someone used a later dash for a pattern and then discovered the difference between the early column and the later one. The column hole movement was in fact on July 18 of 1913 and I guess my previous post didn't make that emphatically clear. Your carb adjuster hole as pictured is also NOT as they are when factory drilled. They are usually a very neat ELLIPSE as shown in the first dash picture. The ellipse is formed by the round drill passing through at an angle. The elongated groove is caused by the hole being originally drilled at the wrong angle or location and having it reamed out later with file or drill to make it all fit. That is common on replacement dahs. The page 29 is NOT from a FORD FACTORY picture because the detail on the dash brass is way different than original. The screws holding the dash molding on were #5 screws which would be invisible at the scale of that dash picture. One interesting piece of trivia is that the screws were in fact #5 FLAT HEAD screws on the top surface of the brass and #5 French Head screws along the sides. There is a good reason for this - anybody want to guess why?? I think I have previously posted the answer to this.

Problem is, my car is an August 11 car; do you think they were still using the earlier separate brackets that late? FWIW, the car has the forged-end rear radius rods.

Royce:

You are spot on with your core/veneer grain direction issue and that is exactly why so many of the later dashs are falling apart but interestingly the earlier dashs made until sometime in 1912 had the core and veneer BOTH running horizontal and MANY of those dash I have seen are still in very fine shape. Ford reversed the grain direction in vain attempt to reduce WARPING which was their main problem with the wood dashs. They never solved it totally until 1923 with the steel dash. FYI the early cars did NOT use cheery veneer and the later wood dashs used more HARD MAPLE veneer than anything else it would seem. The early cars ('09-'10) used Mahogany veneer. I personally have never seen birch veneer on any original dash although many use birch veneer plywood for repro dashs. It paints great.

Here is a picture of the core of the original 1914 dash:



Here's a picture of late (left) vs early steering columns:



Royce

The boards run anywhere from 1 1/4" wide to over 6" wide on this example. None of them seem to be any intentional width, as if scraps of wood were being used from any number of sources.

This dash is quite sturdy. I wonder if it is possible to replace the veneer only? I am not a wood chuck so please excuse the ignorance if this is a dumb question.

Royce

Hello John, you thinks correct, a small stamping on the inside hidden in behind where the coil box is located is marked "Syverson" .
Does/did Syverson make a generic size to suit a wider range of year span ?

David:

Like many other T parts, dashes were in constant change. To offer a repro dash for a generic "year" would require the maker to make the "typical" dash for a given year if one exists but that dash would likely NOT have early details or late details which you would have to add or remove (if possible) in order to make your dash authentic for YOUR particular exact car. When I make a dash for someone, I start with the engine number and get the ultimate owner of the dash to agree with me on the likely ship date of the car. From that I go to work and sift through the changes that occurred on the dash up to that ship date. Any changes that happened later are NOT included obviously. If a dash maker was to offer EVERY version of every dash so as to have one on the shelf for every T, that would be one heck of a pile of dash boards and one very long catalog page. Mine are simply made to order to be exactly as the dash would have been that was on a particular car. It isn't rocket science but it is a lot of detail work.

Good answer John.

John F.,
Is the answer to your trivia question concerning the difference in #5 brass screw firewall trim because flat head brass wood screws on the top better facilitated the fit for the steel windshield frames? Whereas the oval headed screws would've made for a very tiny opening between the brass trim and the windshield frame?

George:

YEP - Actually the flat head screws on the top of the brass trim and French head screws along the sides began with the 1912 dash trim and carried through to the end of the 1914 model. If one uses the French head screws along the top of the brass trim, the windshield tubing (brass or steel it doesn't matter) will sit on top of the screw heads and dimple the bottom of the tubing somewhat while the windshield frame always sits "UP" on the screw heads rather than neatly down on the top of the brass trim that is held on with countersunk flat head brass #5 screws.

RV:

I would think an August 1914 car could likely have had EITHER lamp bracket style since the integral lamp/bracket design began appearing in July. If the car has the separate bracket and lamp arrangement it most certainly would have been the newer 1914 style bracket without the offset bend for the ledge. Also very likely any T's assembled at BRANCHs would have been using the separate bracket setup for a fair amount of time AFTER the newer design was being used on Factory built cars. It just seems the branch built cars had earlier details on them much later into the model year than factory built cars.

Thanks for the info, John. The car came with Model 2 sidelamps with separate brackets, but they're somewhat suspect: the brackets have the little shoulders and no offset but are flat and about 3/16" thick. The brackets are at least 30 years old and may be repros.

Interesting that Mel Miller states that, of the integral-lamp brackets, only the Model 2s need to have the dash's lamp-mounting hole moved outboard.

There have been repro lamp brackets made from the thin 3/16 for a very long time. Can't say for sure when they started but it was back in the 50's I think. If someone has a very old parts catalog from back then, you might see that vendors had them on the shelf back then. 7/32 steel on the other hand has been gone for a long time as a "standard" thickness. In defense of the early repro parts makers you must remember they did NOT have access to Ford original drawings like we have now. As others have stated, there simply is no excuse for poor repro stuff being on the market NOW since the Ford drawings are available for almost all parts along with the history of changes for those same drawings. It is the first place to go when making a part and if you are buying a repro part it is the first question to ask the vendor "Is this part made per the original Ford drawings and does the vendor have those drawings on file? To me it is foolish to make something any other way unless the drawings are NOT in the archives for the part being sold.

Thanks John,
Your postings on this and another thread have really helped me in the building of a '14 runabout firewall using a Ray Wells body - in which I'm HIGHLY PLEASED. For example; I was gonna use nine #10 steel flat headed screws to fasten the hood former onto the firewall and the #5 brass oval (French?) along the top of the brass firewall trim. You set me straight. But, now that I know better, guess I'll still use original offset cowl lamp brackets (engine cast date 2-15-14) and a D.B. steering column with the lower inboard 5/16" carriage bolt (1912?) Guess it won't matter . . . .. it'll never see Pebblebeach . . . ..Besides, visualize how totally CUTE a little runabout looks with those HUGE brass E&J 3 tiers on the cowl !!

If you are buying repro lamp brackets, the correct early 1914 brackets are the same price and they ARE made to factory drawings.

It would be interesting to list, in another thread perhaps, exactly which parts are available that have been made from Ford prints.

John Reagan:
I understand that the 11-12 era one piece and two piece dash steering columns are dimensionally different. Most conspicuous of these differences being the one non-concentric lower dash mounting hole that connects the column flange to the drive side dash-frame bracket. Is there also a column angular difference when installed? Excuse me if this question has previously been addressed...I couldn't find a Forum archieve that discussed this evolution.
Best Regards,
Scott Rosenthal

The steering column was lowered in 1912 which is why the one hole moved on the flange. That resulted in a slight angular difference and yes they changed the parts specs for that new angle for the parts involved.

John:
I,ve got the 1911 lower dash in a 12 towncar, which I believe to be correct. This new dash has not had the steering column hole cut in it yet. Can a latter style column (12-13) be inconspicuously adapted in your opinion?
Thx,
Scott Rosenthal

Scott:

I don't like to speak BEYOND my own experience. Clearly a Town car is short on space between steering wheel and seat so you sure don't want to use a 1912 column in STOCK position at its normal height I wouldn't think since that would cut down on the space even more. I would defer to those who might actually have fitted a 1912 dash into an earlier town car. I have not done that.

John Reagan:
Per research I've conducted, the 1911 style 2 piece lower dash is the correct application for all of the 1912 model year towncars. The column length is supposed to be shortened by 2.00 inches. Just curious whether the flange angle of later style column is the same as the earlier.
Best Regards,
Scott Rosenthal

Scott Rozenthel - its REGAN - the former president spelled it wrong ha ha.

The cars that had fixed body height at the front like the Delivery Car and Town car could NOT use the new 1 piece dash since the windshield would sit about 1-3/4" too low. On Roadster's or Touring Cars they could just sit the front bow a bit lower but Delivery Cars and other body styles with a fixed roof height couldn't do that. Eventually for the Delivery Car by late '12 they bought different windshields with a larger lower glass to put the top of the windshield at the same height as it was with the 2 piece dash. The typical 1912 Steering column DOES have a slightly different angle at the dash and at the frame bracket - I though I said that but if not - I am saying it here. The typical 1911 steering column has a sharper angle to the dash since it sits about 3/4" higher at the point where it passes through the dash than does the 1912. The frame steering bracket mounts at the same point as normal but it is rotated a small amount too and I am pretty sure I remember that the drawing for that bracket also showed a change on it for that event.

John Regan:
Many apologies for the misspelling. Much appreciation for this wealth of obscure tech data. As you have certainly aready determined, I have one of the one piece dash columns that I wish to alter for this application. Not too concerned about fractions of angles or inches here, just want to first make it comfortable to drive, and if it looks original and is at least approximately dimensionally correct, then so much the better. One would have thought that the column angle relative to the frame would have remained a constant throughout these dash changes, since this frame was designed to be interchangable between the towncar and other body styles.
Best Regards,
Scott Rosenthal

The frame IS interchangeable. The steering column, its frame bracket, and the dash are not. The frame bracket can probably be easily rotated a bit to accommodate the lower column angle or you could perhaps file the surfaces and elongate the hole to accomplish that but I have never done it so wouldn't advise you for sure.

Thanks again John. I'm going to mock this up on Autocad once I can determine where the finished surface of the drivers seat ought to be.
Best Regards,
Scott