Trans/clutch adjustment

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Trans/clutch adjustment
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul griesse on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 12:11 pm:

I`ve put around 600 miles on my `24 touring since totally rebuilding the eng & trans. Made one clutch arm adjustment early-on to eliminate slipping in high gear. After about 2oo miles, I`m slipping again.(its worse, this time) Pulled the trans cover and it looks like I`m about out of anymore clutch adjustment. Might still have 1/2 turn on each clutch arm screw but I wonder if I`ve got some other problem? Any suggestions appreciated and thanks, Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John T. Tannehill III on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 01:45 pm:

Are you sure the link to the clutch collar is free when the emergency brake is all the way forward. This is the link on the outside of the hogshead that attaches to the pedal. If it is not totally free or loose it will cause the clutch to slip because it prevents the spring from fully engaging the pressure plate. Just a thought.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul griesse on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 03:45 pm:

Thanks, John-----We did check that link and the clutch seems to be fully engaging. Any other thoughts?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David_Cockey on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 07:52 pm:

What kind of clutch discs are you using - original style all metal, Watts thick fiber, Turbo Hydramatic or similar, or ??? If Watts what spring?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 09:18 pm:

David raised a good point. Did you test the clutch spring for the right amount of tension?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 10:03 pm:

If its a watts, and the spring came from Watts, its junk. I used a Chaffin Garage spring - it is a very good spring for the watts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul griesse on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 10:29 am:

Its a Watts clutch and (I think) a new spring from Snyders. I did not check the spring tension but did set it at 2" per spec. The "slipping" started after several short (20 mile) drives--I only made it back home in low gear last week.Serious slipping--enough that there was hardly any engagement in high. I ran with the lower floorboard removed to be sure the clutch linkage was not binding somewhere.Whats my NEXT step? Thanks Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David_Cockey on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 11:19 am:

I don't have any experience with the Watts clutch, and others have had good experience. However I recently heard from a very experienced T owner/driver/mechanic of similar experiences with a Watts clutch. He attributed the slipping to the fewer plates and not wanting to use higher spring force than other clutches, and replaced the Watts clutch with a different type of clutch.

The Watts clutch has fewer plates than either the original or the various THM type clutches. Few plates means more torque has to transmitted across each clutch plate interface or slipping will occur. To accomplish that the coefficient of friction has to be greater or the force on the disks has to be greater (stiffer spring).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By sethharbuck@bellsouth.net on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 11:25 am:

Paul,

Get the engine warmed up and drain the oil. Also, if your car has a transmission screen, look for clutch friction material in it.

Lined clutches aren't happy with slipping and yours sounds like it has lost it's friction material.

Not what you wanted to hear, I know. Sorry about that.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard G.Goelz Knoxville,Tn on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 11:35 am:

Seth, the Watts clutch is not lined liked the Jackrabbit it is a true fiber clutch pack,i would recommend a call to R V Anderson my guess is that the push ring wasn't machined down.
Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 11:46 am:

My guess is the spring hasn't enough tension. I ordered a spring from Chaffins about 6 months ago, and it measured only 95 pounds at 2". I posted a comment about it on this website. It appears some of the springs were not up to standard. I replaced it with one with 105 pounds tension and will try it out this coming spring.
If you have checked the linkage and turned the clutch screws all the way in, I don't see a way to proceed without taking the transmission out.
Another thought. Is it possible the discs are not sliding over the lugs smoothly and are hanging up or worse, that the edges of the discs are chewed up. I have seen the latter happen when I freind installed a Watts clutch, but to this day believe the problem was he didn't file the lugs smooth or file the spaces in the discs to make sure they slid easily.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David_Cockey on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 12:55 pm:

According to Bruce McCalley in Vintage Ford, March-April 1980, the Ford specs for the clutch spring were 90 lbs at 2". So a spring at 95 lbs at 2" would be just over spec.

Perhaps the Watts clutch needs higher spring force due to the fewer discs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 04:53 pm:

I installed a watts, and dont have any problems, but again - Im not happy with the snyders or the watts spring - the chaffin one was perfect. - question - did you be certain to only take 3/16 of an inch off of the ring pins? If you took too much off of them, or didnt get them machined exactly the same - your going to have a problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 05:10 pm:

Paul,
You didn't mention anything about the link between the low pedal and the clutch lever. If it is not adjusted properly, you will either lose neutral, or the clutch will slip.

See the thread on adjusting for a free neutral which explains thoroughly how to make that adjustment. This is the only thing I can think of that was not mentioned above, but it is worth checking before you tear down the transmission.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul griesse on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 10:03 pm:

Back on this project after several months---pulled the engine today and removed the drive plate from the transmission. The brake drum lugs are somewhat "groved" from the disks. This is a "jackrabbit" clutch--8 internal disks, 4 were badly worn, from slipping.I also found three of the origional 9 large trans disks were cracked.The clutch spring was new and appears to be OK. Heres my diagnosis: As origionally installed, the 8 Jackrabbit disks plus 9 origional disks were OK for around 200 miles but began slipping until I turned down the clutch screws.This helped but eventually it started slipping again in high gear and I couldn`t adjust the clutch screws any more.My clutch "stack" was now smaller (under 1 inch) and the highgear slipping destroyed the lined discs even more.The Watts, Turbos and the Jackrabbit clutch discs don`t stand up to highgear slipping and will deterioriate quickly.The FIX?---I plan to reinstall another set of jackrabbit discs, along with 9 orig. large discs.I think I can file down the lugs in the brake drum to eliminate any disc hangups.Once installed, I will recheck the clutch adjusting screws to be sure there is no slip, in highgear. Any input appreciated-----I don`t need anymore practice in pulling engines to fix transmissions! Thanks, Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 11:08 pm:

I believe the Watts clutch is now supplied with a 110lb. spring.

When you set the clutch finger screws to the 13/16 height from the driven plate to the collar, this doesn't always set enough pressure on the clutch pack. For this reason, I always set the clutch finger screws to get a compressed spring length of 2.00". And be sure that the pressure or measurement of the spring is the same all the way around. Don't just turn a screw to get the setting then make the other two screws match the first in height above the fingers. The fingers can vary enough that this will not give a balanced pressure. You might also need to turn the spring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, March 03, 2008 - 12:09 pm:

Well, I guess going with the lined discs, Watts, Jackrabbit, etc., really does offer a large, free nuetral.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fritz Wilder on Monday, March 03, 2008 - 08:21 pm:

Paul, I had the same slipping problem with my clutch. I also found as you did several large disks that were cracked. The crack in the large disks had scraped the lining from the small disks right down to their metal backing. I replaced the clutch pack with new lined disks and carefully inspected original large disks. I have not had any further problems with slipping. I do not know what caused the clutch disks to crack or how common it is for them to crack but I do know that once cracked they made fast work of the lined disks.
Fritz Wilder


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul griesse on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 06:43 pm:

Thanks for your input, Fritz (also everyone else) In case you haven`t seen it, check the later thread "origional Clutches" for more input on this problem. I`m going back to the origional clutches---one bad experience with the lined discs is enough for me. Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John T. Tannehill III on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 07:23 pm:

Just wondering if you forgot to place the washer spacers under the clutch drum and if they had the correct thickness, Are you sure you had the set pin for the clutch drum actually in the hole so that there was no slipping up or down? I installed a watts and a jack rabbit with no problem. I know it may sound sophomoric but those little measurements do make a big difference.


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