I just found out today, from a major Model T supplier, that I am fanatical. Now I want to know why trying to restore a Model T Ford to as close to original catagorizes me as fanatical? I call it trying to restore my car properly. I was told that most Model T people don't care what is right or wrong, as long as it works. Well, all I can say is fine for them. I think it is fun trying to find original correct parts.
Larry
I am not sure if your fanitical, but a friend we both know once told me if NOS air was available for Model T tires YOU would be useing it? Grin
Ron the Coilman
Well I guess I am fanatical, since I spent over 4000 hours researching and redoing my 1911 TRorpedo Roadster. Go for it!!!! There is nothing wrong with it. I loved every minute of it. It shouldn't matter its your hobby! You can do it any way you want. Good Luck! Jon
Well,I am sure it is alot of fun finding the exact part.Kinda playing detective in the record books and so forth.And you are doing a great service by preserveing as close to perfect example of a particular year T.
But it is alot more fun to drive the car and switch out that hard to find part later when found,than to leave a otherwise good car on stands waiting for the exact type pin for the clutch adjustment or other similar obscure item.
What are you building Larry?
Craig
Hey y'all; At my age I don't even buy green bananas. All I want is a reasonably accurate approximation of a '24 C-Cab. Is it all original? No the Warford was added before I got it. The stop lites and turn signals I added, etc. I can drive it almost any day to my own enjoyment.
But for the people that want to do it another way, fine. I have no business muddling in other people's fun. To each his own !!!!!!!
Sincerely
Jim Weir
I think it has more to do with wether you're starting with a frame and a box of semi-related Model T parts or a complete old original car.
If you have to rebuild the car from the ground up you might as well be as accurate as you can and go for that "brand new" look.
If you purchase a complete car that can be made driveable, I'd just as soon leave it as original as possible.
I have no problem with "aftermarket" parts (neoprene seals, 12 volt conversion, alternator, modern fuel shut-off, etc) but I've been careful not to do anything to my car that a "purist" couldn't return to absolutely bone stock 1927.
You say "fanatical" like it's a bad thing. It's only bad when it overarches all other aspects of your life. Enjoy your fanaticism, just don't declare jihad on us distributor guys. ;)
Larry. Kudos to you. You have every right to make your Model T as authentic to the year as possible and I applaud you for it. Apparently you asked this particular supplier for an authentic part he was unable to provide and he labeled you a fanatic because you would not accept what he had to offer. Good for you. Ebay is a great source for original Model T parts and I encourage you to go there for the parts you need to make your Model T as authentic as possible. Over the years, I have been able to replace all my non Ford scripted reproduction parts for original NOS Ford scripted parts from ebay.
What Model T supplier told you that and what were the circumstances that prompted him to label you as a fanatic? He won't sue you if you tell us and we all would be interested to know. Jim
"Fanatical" is better than saying "obsessive compulsive". You are a fan of restoring the T to its original specification, right down to the materials, processes, and finish of each component part. That sounds mighty fine to me. This "fanaticism" may infect others and the outcome of that could be more period-perfect reproduction parts.
If I had a real T, I'd probably be the same way.
A "restoration scholar" would make sure that the castle nuts on the crankcase all have the proper size and style steel cotterpins.
A "fanatic" would first check into which worker was on the shift that built his engine. This is important because if he was lefthanded, all the pins would face the opposite direction from the usual. The fanatic would then find a lefthanded person to install them, after which Larry, uh, I mean the fanatic, would brush paint the bolts after determining the correct composition of the brush: camel, hog, sable, or squirrel hair, and whether the brush was new at that time or worn by the sharp edges of the cotters and the tits on the bolts left by the cutoff tools. This is critical, because the brush marks left in the paint would differ depending on the condition of the brush.
Clearly, Larry is NOT a fanatic. I have personal information to the effect that he once used a hog bristle brush on BOTH the crankcase bolts AND the left rear spring clip nut.
Way back in the early '60s, I restored my 1913 Touring, and although I was a teenager at the time I always tried to find genuine Ford parts when I needed them. Some of the older guys in the club nicknamed me "original", which has stuck to this day.
A friend of mine that has a 1909 has been spending the last 2 years trying to reproduce the ratcheting hose clamps that were correct for that era. Granted, they will look great when he is done; but, the originals didn't work worth a darn. That fanatical!!
He's having a great time. That's what its all about. Plus, you always know one of the subjects to bring up when you talk to Doc, "How's the clamp project going".
Do your own thing, that's what I say.
Tour America,
JC
Jim, I have a set of those ratcheting hose clamps your friend made and will use them on my 1909 with pride. They are great! Larry, I've known you many years, value your friendship and although your may be a bit fanatical at times, most of the time you are right on!
R.V. would you be so kind as to tell us where we can get those Squirrel Hair brushes, and which parts it is appropriate to use them on? Would that be the castle nuts, or the square nuts? Or were those brushes reserved for the acorn nuts? ;-)Steven
I think it all depends on the final use of the vehicle when done. Should a person use original two piece valves, cast iron pistons, babbitt thrust washers in the rear axle, a babbitt drive shaft bearing, plate glass for the windshield, NOS rubber tires and the list goes on or would it be better to use stainless steel valves and valve seat inserts, aluminum pistons, Kevlar bands, and brass bushings in place of babbitt ones and safety glass for the windshield. If the point is to retain the exact example of the car as it left the factory for a museum display or to be driven will place a different set of standards for restoration.
I think both have there place in a given situation. Most of this 100 to 80 year old NOS stuff is gone or hard to find so something has to be used to replace it if a person wants to have a vehicle that can be safely driven in a reasonable amount of time after starting a restoration. I have known this person for 40 years and he has never finished restoring a car that he started. He likes to place these hurtles up that postpone going forward until he gets this or that NOS part. He recently got this non starter 25 C cab TT that needs a complete engine rebuild but wouldn't think of replacing it with an engine that he has on a stand that runs with a starter while he's gets the original rebuild. On the other hand a Pinto engine isn't answer either but a happy middle ground needs to be maintained so some resemblance of the original cars is kept. Maybe a list of non original parts used in a restoration should kept to document changes made during the restoration to make a new owner aware so these items could be replaced later if they became available by the person wanting to maintain this type of originality. Bob
An original Model T is something to behold. If someone wants his T to be all authentic and original, that is okay. Also okay is a basically original Model T with some later parts as necesasary to keep the T running. What I find odd, are the replica 1909s that run around with a sign indicating the T is an 1909, when a repro body sits on a later chasis. I feel it should have "replica" on the title and somewhere on the vehicle. What do you think?
Over fifteen million Model T's were manufactured from 1908 to 1927. This is an incredibly long production run for a car which basically remained the same for almost twenty years with virtually every part interchangeable with those of other years. With this in mind, while an authentic, all original Model T is a wonderful testament to the restorer's dedication to his hobby, his craft and his passion, it is easy to see how surviving Model T's that were driven many years during the hey day of the Model T wound up with a conglomeration of parts from many years, as the original owners sought to upgrade their Model T's, or keep them running with newer, later parts, not necessarily of the year their car was made. To me, these cars are no less Model T's. If it looks like a Model T, sounds like a Model T, smells like a Model T and runs like a Model T, it is a Model T.
The 1909 Model T is such an icon, that it is almost a sacrilege to replicate it, but if it is done well and accurately, in honor of the original car and what it represents, I suppose it doesn't hurt as long as it serves to generate interest in the Model T. Jim
Steven, I don't think you can get authentic Ford squirrel hair brushes. These brushes were originally made from hair obtained from the carcasses of the squirrels that made the still-under-construction Highland Park plant their headquarters. The construction workers would perform a service and entertain themeselves at a stroke by dispatching the critters and throwing them into a large pile.
When Henry Ford, who wasted nothing, saw the pile, he immediately ordered Sorensen to find a use for them. The disgusted Dane delegated the project to the young Edsel, who, artistic as he was, recognized the value of the hair in touch-up paintbrushes for nuts on Ford cars.
The unique square configuration of the individual hair shanks made them especially suitable for quickly and thoroughly applying paint to the square slots of the castle nuts in common use at that time. As soon as management learned that a recent Estonian immigrant, hired to thread needles in the Ford upholstery department, was, in the old country, a barber, he was pulled off the upholstery job and put to work shaving squirrel carcasses.
A serious problem arose when the supply of the raw material for these brushes diminished. As the factory moved into the new plant, the Ford workers' lunchtime enthusiasm for turning the pesky rodents into touch-up brushes mounted. The Records of Change for the brushes indicate that the last known Ford squirrel met its demise on February 8, 1913. The loss of the unique square hair forced the company to begin the changeover to round-slotted castle nuts beginning with car #176,009 on March 12 of that year.
Besides the animals' well-known qualities of annoying tenacity and resilience, it has been shown that they are actually capable of an intellectual feat remarkable in mammalian fauna: the ability to hold a grudge and to act on it. To this day, many Model T owners are dismayed, on their annual Spring Start-Ups, to discover the vengeance wrought upon the Ford machine in memory of the victimized vermin: carbs and exhausts turned into the critters' personal landfills. Somewhere, their long-deceased ancestors are cackling with glee.
Larry -- Of course you're fanatical. It's all part of your charm.
Larry,
I would have more of a problem putting older parts on later cars than putting later parts on older cars. the reason is severalfold. 1. As the cars were assembled, when a change was made, many times the parts were used up before the new version was used, and so it would differ according to which assembly plant assembled the car. 2. Some parts were defective from the start, and there were many problems and so the company upgraded the parts, and either recalled the cars or replaced with the newer improved part when routine maintenance was performed. 3. Many owners replaced engines, transmissions, wheels etc over the years and used the newer parts that were available and interchangeable.
This also goes for the paint. If you were to find original paint, it would probably be very deteriorated. The cars that came black from the factory, were repainted any color the owner wanted after a few years. Therefore unless I wanted it to look exactly as out of the factory, I would use a good looking paint and color.
Many after market accessories were available for the Model T. I have a copy of an old Western Auto catelog and it has pages and pages of parts and accessories. Many of them are unique and desireable just in themselves.
The thing I would not do is make a hot rod out of a T. I wouldn't put the body on a newer chassis or put in a non T engine. I want the car to be as near to a T as it is possible to get. I, however would use a Ruckstell and Rocky mountain brakes, because they were available during the Model T days. If I had them I would use Buffalo or other period wheels, I like to use a magneto, but if I had an engine which ran just fine otherwise, I wouldn't pull it just to replace the magneto ring. But if I had the engine out I would replace it and remove the distributor. Likewise, if the car overheats without a water pump and it doesn't with one, I would use the water pump. If the radiator needs replacement, then I would use the best radiator and remove the water pump etc.
Norm
Funny reading but some of you guys are nuts!!
Larry's one of the nicest T folks I know...sometimes a fanatic is need to straighten out folks who believe that a model T must be modified extensivly or you can't drive it....Larry's probably got more miles on his T than most people on this forum....his car is basicly stock. I enjoy his company and his knowledge is second to none...just my dos centavos...Hugh
RV, were they red squirrels, or grey squirrels? I have some red squirrels in the trees in the yard, and being in the county (not the city) I could shoot a couple. Get a barber shear and shave them. Now if my granddaughter would be willing to paint the square slotted castle nuts, might it be possible, with a display of the correct square-haired squirrel brushes, to win a trophy for most authentic restoration?
Steven
I could shoot a couple bucket fulls of grey squrriels and freeze them and send them to ye if you need them.I reckon my T aint gonna be right.I'll be ####ed if I am going to shave a squrriel for no hair for a brush.:>)
Steven, they were fox squirrels. I don't know if the square-haired subspecies that roamed the plant still survives. I think the reds and grays have the more typical round hairs. You could use a camel-hair brush and just stick a red-squirrel hair in the fresh paint. Most judges are well aware of the special brushes but a single hair might get you past a newbie.
The big fox squirrels made irresistable targets for the workers. Ford historians have recorded a fistfight between two workmen which took place a year or so before the institution of the Five Dollar Day. The fight was witnessed by Henry and Edsel, and the author notes that Henry was embarrassed by it. That much is well-known, but the cause of the fight is less so: it was a dispute over whose shot had actually dispatched one of the critters. The outcome of this important dispute actually meant who was going to have lunch that day, since the low pay in Ford factories often meant that the men arrived with only a crust of bread in their pockets for their mid-shift repast.
A great believer in homely fare, Old Henry encouraged the hunts and even went so far as to experiment with arranging the stacks of Model T frames along the most-used squirrel runs, pasting peanuts as targets on the frames where the various holes should be located, in the hope of getting the pests to pause in front of them long enough to provide a good shot which would save the work of two punch presses. This is a likely cause of the unexplained holes in many early early frames.
The experiment failed when hungry new hires, ignorant of the peanuts' purpose, kept stealing the bait. The resultant near-misses by angry sportsmen/workers forced Henry to abandon the project. They already had enough trouble with turnover.
Oh! Randy! Randy! Randy! Great Pros!
Is this ready for publication yet?
BTW, Doc's 1909 that I mentioned earlier is an original. It has the high oil fill tube and the waterpump. Very well restored.
Tour America,
JC
Hey Larry!!
I agree, you are... is that a bad thing????
See ya!
Gary
Tom,
I agree most of us are nuts. I think we should all check into the Henry Ford Clinic. :-)
Nuts! I agree that is what it is all about. Finding the correct nuts. RV, I'm nearly out of breath reading your comments. It is certainly clear, that you are an english teacher.
While on the subject, I'm looking at the Ford Service book, or manual, and the grease cups used on that '24 don't seem to have been painted. Were they plain steel when they left the factory? It's hard to tell, with all those pictures being airbrushed. I guess all the squirrel hair brushes were used up by '24?
Squirrel hair brushes were indeed a thing of the past by '24, as were the square-slotted castle nuts except in a few places. I'm pretty sure that Engineering allowed several bristle sources for their touch-up brushes after that. However, my personal feeling is that if the cups weren't raven, they probably weren't painted at all as the grease that ended up on the outside of the cups took care of rusting.
But that's even harder to substantiate than the squirrel hair brushes.
Fanatical or not. I can not understand a vendor treating a customer like that. What has happened to customer service? I can understand the banter us guys throw back and forth here on the furom or in the garage, but vendors should not.