Body Number With CP Prefix - 1926

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Body Number With CP Prefix - 1926
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bib Overalls In Arkansas on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 02:07 am:

My understanding is that Model T serial numbers (VINs) were stamped on the motor. And that some 26-27 models also had the same number stamped on the frame. But the bodies were never stamped with this number.

Well, when we media blasted my 26 sedan body the following numbers apeared on the front sub-rail cross-member: /CP-21520-/-5-28-26.

The last three numbers are most certainly the date of manufacture; May 28, 1926 (a Friday, I checked).

The body came from Northern Minnesota and I thought the CP might stand for Canadian Production with the 21520 being the vehicle serial number stamped in compliance with some local requirement. But a little web searching revealed Canadian Ts had a "C" prefix and six didget serial numbers. And the year 1926 was designated by a "D".

On another forum someone said "CP" was a code that identified the body assembly plant and that the rest was a sequential number and manufacturing date.

So, could CP-21520 be the body's serial number or does it designate something else? Is "CP" the code for a specific plant and if so, which one?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Perigo on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 08:10 am:

Well, I'll have a go at it since I have a 1927 Tudor. I need to look at my front sub rail crossmember, but it's painted and I might not be able to see anything.

I have seen what you're talking about on Model A's. The codes indicate place of assembly, and the numbers, while they are not exactly a date, can be used to look up the day of assembly in the records.

I need to go back and look at my Model A information because I can't remember if there was a "CP" assembly plant.

Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 10:16 am:

Hey, Bibs -- Where are you located? Please check out the website of our statewide Model T club: www.ArkansasTinLizzies.com. We'd like to have you join us.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 06:39 pm:

Bibs –

Short answer: I’m 90% sure that number you shared “/CP-21520-/-5-28-26/ is associated with the Ford assembly plant that put the body onto the frame. And yes the “5-28-26” is most likely the date that was stamped. If you compare that date with the date derived from the serial number found on the engine (look above the water inlet on the engine) and the frame (which originally would have matched the engine) the engine number should be the same date or a little earlier than the 5-28-26 date. Unfortunately the letters “CP” do not correlate to the current list of know letters used by the assembly plants. There is still lots to figure out and that is one more of the items we are working on. Would you please post and/or send me a picture of the numbers you found. A pencil rubbing would work also.

Longer answer: or “MTFCA Numbers … (maybe it will eventually become a series like the TV crime show “Numbers” … ok maybe not.)

1. Mike had a great suggestion, be sure to visit the Arkansas club website at http://www.arkansastinlizzies.com/ or depending on where you live, one of the other clubs might be closer. A complete list is available at: http://mtfca.com/MTclubs.htm
You will find a lot of great support and you will also be able to help a lot of them. We all have questions we want to learn more about. We also all have areas where as Mark Twain probably said, “I picked up the cat by the tail and I learned a whole lot more about cats” and we can help others by sharing what we learned.

2. We have been attempting together more information on how the Ford assembly plants marked cars so we can help folks discover a little more about the history of their car. We think it is probably similar to the way the 1928-31 Model A Fords were marked. Not all the “A’s” had the markings so probably not all the “T’s” would have them either. Also we don’t know when they started stamping the Ts – was in 1920, 22, 25, 27, or? I am trying to extend Dave Sturges’ research backwards to include the Model Ts. Note Dave does NOT want the Model T information – but I definitely do want that information. I plan to provide him a summary once we have a enough to share. Additional information on the Model A Ford Assembly plants is located in the article Dave Sturges has at: http://www.mafca.com/assembly.html For a Model A Ford assembled at St Louis that code would have been the letters STL or AXSTL. If stamped, they would be some where stamped into the top of the front body cross member, into the body side rails on the floor board level, or into the wooden cross member on certain body styles such as Cabriolets and Fordors. The number can be located anywhere on the cross member and can be oriented to read from driver to passenger side, from passenger to driver side, or from back to front. Also, the size of the stamp used differs from one assembly plant to another.

3. In the case of the “CP” it did not match any of the assembly plants listed in Dave’s Model A Ford listing. If it is a assembly plant stamping there is a good chance that one or both of the letters are from the city the plant was located in. Dave shares how if it is a single word name they used the first and last letter of the name. If the city had two names such as New Orleans was “NO” and Oklahoma City was “OC.” We need to look for connections between cities with assembly plants and the letters “CP.” Of course it could be stamped on there for some other reason and we need to be open to discovering something else. If other folks look and find a CP on their 1926-27 cars then it might help us track it down. All we really need is one or two cars that we know where they were assembled at that have a “CP” and then we will know which plant used that code.

4. Note Kyle posted at http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/31535.html that his 1926 Tudor had a “OC” stamped on it. I was busy with work so I missed that posting. But I’m 100% sure that it means Ocklahoma City based on Dave’s research on the Model A Ford assembly numbers. I plan to send Kyle a note asking for a picture etc. of his findings when he has a chance.

5. There is always lots more to discover. And we know that a couple of folks have “DesMoines” stamped into the wood of their cars indicating the car was assembled at the DesMoines assembly plant. All of those cars are pre 1926 that have more wood than the later 1926-27 style bodies (except for the 1926-27 Fordor which continued with the wood framing). If others would please keep an eye out for those types of numbers and please let us know when they find any that would be great. Also if you would please e-mail me with the information or send the link if you do not see any comments posted by me. None of us can read all of the postings (ok maybe a really fast reader?) but I would like to read any that covered that topic.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bib Overalls on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 08:10 pm:

The MAFCA article lists the code "CR" for the Chester, PA assembly plant. I checked my stamping this afternoon and there is nothing to indicate the "P" might be a miss-struck "R." Even so, I am inclined to think it was most likely assembled there. I don't have a listing of all the Model T assembly plants in the US but of those I could find, "CP" only works with Chester, PA.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 10:57 pm:

Bibs,

1. It is possible that the Chester Pennsylvania assembly plant used something other than CR in 1926 or at other times also. When you have a chance please send us a photo of your markings – if you can put a ruler or dime etc. next to them to help us judge the size, that would be great also. Some additional questions I would like to pursue or find out what someone else know about are:

a. Do you have any additional history on the car. I.e. if you know where it was originally sold – it usually (but not always) would have been the nearest assembly that supplied the car. There actually are some assembly area maps – showing which assembly plant supplied which area.

b. It would be good to know when the Chester Pennsylvania Ford assembly plant began production. I.e. if it was initially a sales branch and did not start production until 1927 or 1928, then it would not have been the plant that produced your 5-28-26 dated car. That should be available – we just need someone to run it down.

c. Do the engine and frame serial numbers support the 5-28-26 date? As we discussed in a previous thread, if someone built the car up from parts they may have replaced a damaged body cross member with that one and the cross member or entire body may not be related to the chassis. (I grabbed the cat by the tail on that subject a couple of times. My Great Uncles swapped model T bodies back in the 1920s or 1930s as each wanted to keep their original chassis but wanted the other person’s body style. And as a teenager I swapped three 1928-1929 bodies between two 1928-1929 chassis to get one much nicer 1928 Tudor and one not so nice 1929 coupe. So I often think of that when looking at older cars.).

Thanks for sharing a let us know if you find out anything else.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bib Overalls on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 11:14 pm:

Here is a picture of the body serial number and date stamped into my 26 two door sedan.

Body Serial Number

The letters and numbers are 1/4" tall. The slash marks are about 5/16" long and look like they were made with a cold chisel.

The body came out of a barn in Minnesota. It was purchased at an estate sale by the gent who sold it to me. This is all I know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken - SAT on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 11:52 pm:

TCP could be the Twin Cities Plant in Minneapolis/St. Paul.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bib Overalls on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 01:12 am:

Don't think the first mark is a letter. It was not made with a letter "T" stamp. I think it was made with two strikes of a chisel. But who knows? Minneapolis/St. Paul is the right area. And then there is that "floating" "P".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken - SAT on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 02:38 am:

You're right about the T being a double strike with the bar but it wasn't uncommon to use a single stamp in hand rather than grabbing another. The bars look like they were applied in a string and after the letters and characters. (The bar after CP overlaps the P) The floating P could be the shift(pm), crew, stamper initial or some body option. Without documentation, that's just a guess.

Not T related but it was also common to use an X for a plus sign, I for one and O for zero. Not to mention the 6/9 flip still used today.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 10:32 pm:

Bibs,

1. Thanks for posting the photo of the number. We still have lots to discover and that adds another piece of the puzzle. Now we just need to find enough of the pieces to put them together to make sense out of what the “big picture” looks like.

2. Before I forget – for Model Ts with visible wood screws it is easy to rule out the body being made in Canada. Just look at the wood screws. If a lot of them have square recesses then it was made in Canada or some one put the Canadian style screws in the body later. The USA production used the standard slotted wood screws. I don’t know if the screws that were not wood screws used the square drive on the Canadian cars or not. Does anyone know if the screws holding the door hinges on the 1926-27 Canadian cars are square drive or not?

3. For your body – I can’t quite figure out which body cross member the photo is of. If you could share that and/or show one that has more of the cross member (the numbers won’t show up very well – that’s ok) that would work also. I thought it was the front body cross member that the front floor board would rest against and the starter switch would come up through, but I don’t see the lip for the floorboard to rest on.

4. I e-mailed Kyle Augustin and hopefully he will be able to share some more information about his assembly plant number.

5. At the moment – we have a couple of alternatives (ok guesses) to investigate further:

a. The TCP could be an additional way that the Twin Cities, St Paul, Minnesota plant was stamped. I.e. TCP for Twin Cities Paul or as suggest above Twin Cities Plant.

b. The CP could have been an additional way the Chester, Pennsylvania plant stamped their Model Ts

….c. The additional “P” – no clue yet.

d. Something yet to be discovered. And it may turn out that the plants used a different stamp during the Model T period than the Model A period.

6. If you discover anything else about the body that might help identify where it came from please let us know. If it was a recent estate sell – you might be able to speak with some who knew more about the body? Minnesota would make us lean towards the Twin Cities – but the body may have come from some other area and was just found in Minnesota. We just don’t know.

Again thank you for sharing.

Respectfully submitted,
Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford Touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 04:55 pm:

All,

Bottom Line Up Front: CP on a Model T would NOT mean Chester Pennsylvania. The Chester Pennsylvania Ford assembly plant was contstructed at the end of the Model T era and did NOT produce Model Ts but rather began automobile production with the 1928 Model A Ford.

Additional information:

A big thank you to John Page (Australia) who looked up the Chester Pennsylvania Assembly Plant, in Lorin Sorrensen’s “The Ford Factory.” In the book the author shared, “…after 14 years service the old 10 storey Ford plant in Philadelphia was replaced in 1928 by a modern facility constructed at nearby, Chester [PA]. It began Model A production on March 28th 1928." I used that information as motivation to do a little more searching and found additional sources on the web about Ford Plants near Philidelphia. . The first assembly branch opened near Broad Street and Lehigh Avenue, in Philadelphia, and started assembly operations in November, 1914. They ceased assembly operations June, 1927. During its period of operation between November, 1914, and June, 1927, 625,949 units were assembled. (ref: http://www.oldchesterpa.com/ford.htm which shares that the information above was obtained from Pamela Przywara, the Project Archivist with Ford Motor Company in Dearborn, Michigan and it was provided to them via Michael Murphy, irish.genealogy@att.net . It also has a nice Photo of the Chester PA Model A Ford assembly plant. As with anything on the internet (this posting included) it is always good to find additional sources. [The same site had some conflicting dates on when the Chester PA assembly plant closed – but that was from individuals who had been working there and disagreed on the date.]

From the same site:

1914 - July 4 - The plant moved to a new location at Broad Street and Lehigh Avenue. [Philadelphia PA]
1914 - November - Assembly operations were started.
1927 - June - Assembly operations were discontinued
1927 - August - The plant moved to Chester, PA. Note: With the exception of a short period during the early 1930's when trucks and commercial units were assembled there, the buildings at Broad and Lehigh were used principally for storage purposes.
1928 - March - Assembly operations started at the Chester Plant.
1941 - June - The old Philadelphia Plant was sold to the Mack Warehouse Corporation.


Thanks to everyone who has shared some additional information. We have a few more pieces of the puzzle – (thanks Kyle) and I’m certain from reviewing them that some of the Model T assembly plants (Okalahoma City for example) also stamped some of the Model T bodies that they assembled in addition to their known practice of stamping the later Model A Fords they assembled. As you look at the later Ts, 1926 & 27 for sure but also the 1924-25s (feel free to look earlier – but I thought it would be more likely the closer to the Model A Ford production dates) please keep an eye out around the front seat body rail and front floor board risers for any numbers/letters that might indicate which assembly plant the body/car came from. And if you find something please post it but also please click on my name and send me a note to say “hey go look at….” Thanks!

Respectfully,

Hap Tucker, 1915 Model T Ford Touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 05:20 pm:

Ya know what my first thought was when I saw the floating "P"?

If you were stamping numbers and you saw part of a digit was missing, would you strike it in another location to see if it did it again? I might...very possible I might. Maybe the stamp broke, and the fella stamping repositioned the stamp and struck it again.

Just a thought


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 05:20 pm:

Ya know what my first thought was when I saw the floating "P"?

If you were stamping numbers and you saw part of a digit was missing, would you strike it in another location to see if it did it again? I might...very possible I might. Maybe the stamp broke, and the fella stamping repositioned the stamp and struck it again.

Just a thought


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 08:02 pm:

Ray,

Nice looking TT on your profile. If you have a copy of "Henry's Wonderful Model T" by Clymer, look on page 93, bottom picture. The assembly line is showing the "improved model" but if you look a little further back you can see the front fenders of the TT Truck chassis going down the same line. Who knows maybe a late 1925 TT with an early 1926 assembly line?

I think you have a good thought/theory -- if the worker hit that stamp and it should have been an "R" but showed up as a "P" they might have hit it again just to check. That actual break could have happened just before or he may have picked up a stamp that someone else had broken.

We may never know for sure -- but may be as we find more clues, the picture will make more sense. Thank you for sharing, and when you have time -- take a look around the front seat body rail and side rails and see if you find any letters etc. Thanks!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter, SC


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steve miller on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 08:12 pm:

my '26 canadian coupe uses both robertson (square) and slotted screws. slotted on door hinges at body. robertson on hinges at door & garnish moulding. just startig restoration. lots of unique canada features.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 08:25 pm:

This one, Hap? Doesn't that fella holding to the right cowl area look a WHOLE lot like a certain little infamous German with a funny mustache?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 08:29 pm:

I never noticed that in the picture, Hap. By the way, that book stays right here by my chair at all times!

I've been looking all over my TT and haven't found anything stamped yet. Thanks for the compliment on the truck. I sure like it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 08:40 pm:

Heres another of that area at 300 dpi and blown up as big as I can get it without getting totally grainy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 11:57 pm:

Ray,

Yes, that was the assembly line picture I was talking about. Until someone pointed it out to me, I had never noticed those TT truck fenders. I had just assumed they ran the truck body drop at a different location -- but it appears for this assembly line they did the cars as well as the trucks.

In response to your e-mail I thought we would get a lot better answers if we shared your questions on the forum.

1. Ray asked if the TT frames had the engine number stamped into them. I believe the TT frames would have been stamped with the engine number similar to the car frames. However -- I don't know that for a fact -- so I'll post a note and see if we can have some folks verify it. Note it was not until Dec 1925 that Ford started stamping the car frames -- and then there were always some T's depending on when and where they were assembled that apparently were not stamped for one reason or another. From Bruce's on-line encyclopedia he shares:
FRAME NUMBERS
Accession 94. Walter Fishleigh files.
“Motor number was first placed on frame side member R.H. on Dec. 12, 1925. Motor No. 12,861,044. Information obtained from Mr. Burns, Final Assy., Highland Park.”

Note from other postings we know that the number can be found on either side of the frame, stamped either direction -- they were cranking out cars and they were not going to stop the line for that one. So a 1925 TT produced before Dec 12 would not have a number stamped on the frame. And of course probably not all the assembly plants started stamping the frame on Dec 12 -- they would have implemented that a slightly different time.

Does anyone have or know of a 1926-27 TT that has engine number stamped on the frame rail?

2. Ray also asked about the metal TT cabs and if they were stamped with a number. I believe there is a good chance that some of the later TT metal cabs that were assembled at Ford plants would have been stamped. I don't have any samples for TT trucks yet. So if anyone has a TT with a factory Ford body, when you have a chance please take a look and see if there is an assembly plant number (it would have a letter or couple of letters followed by some numbers and possibly a date stamp also). I have been trying to work backwards from the 1928 Model A practice. I'm sure the Ford assembly plants started stamping the assembly codes -- as it is well documented for the 1928 Model A's. But we don't know if they started the practice in 1927, 1926, or when. So I am quessing that if we look at a 1927 we would have a better chance of finding one than if we looked at a 1924 etc. But that is just a guess.

The couple of car samples we have so far were stamped on the metal body sill in front of the front seat. But according to the Model A Ford site, for the Model A's they found the assembly number on that center body cross member as well as some cars had them on the left or right side body sill. And of course some cars they can't find them (my 1931 Model A Town Sedan, I'm the 4th owner, etc. and I haven't been able to find one). If you have a metal cab TT especially a 1926 or 27 please take a look and let us know if you find anything -- or if you don't. Basically look around the metal sills that hold the front floorboard.

Thanks for any help anyone can provide.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vic Patterson on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 03:06 am:

We believe our TT was a '26, but the engine appears to be a '25
C691427.

image/jpg
Pic00002.JPG (26.7 k)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 05:03 pm:

Vic,

Thanks so much for sharing. I agree that the C691427 would be a late 1926 (probably Jul or Aug 1926) Canadian TT. I’m 90% sure from the photo you posted that your TT is a left hand drive and the engine number is stamped on the passenger side frame rail. But please confirm that or let me know I missed it and it is really a rhd TT.

I added your picture to this posting so when we look at it two or three years down the road it is still avaiable. I'm not sure how the other pictures are linked -- but I believe if the picture is moved later -- the link will no longer work. I could have that wrong -- but just to be safe -- here is Vic Patterson's frame with the number stamped into it.



When they replaced the engine with a 1925 – did they keep the 1926 style transmission & transmission cover and just replace the block or did they replace all the 1926 engine & transmission with all the 1925 engine & transmission?

It also appears that you are redoing your truck. If you have time – please send me photos of the progress – especially any items that you know are different from the USA TT.

Very Respectfully,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vic Patterson on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 08:56 pm:

Hap,
Our engine is number C538707 which should be January - February 1925, and it would appear to be normal 1925. It is a LHD with the number stamped on the passenger side rail, it has the usual Canadian differences like Robertson screws etc, we finished the TT Grain truck in 1999 my latest project is a 1920 Canadian Touring which has it's own identity problems!

image/jpg
DCP00396.jpg (140.7 k)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vic Patterson on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 08:58 pm:

Why doesn't my pictures show up?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 09:05 pm:

You first need to get it down under the size limit. Here you go, Vic


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 09:09 pm:

Vic, where did you get that mirror?? By the way, nice truck! I hope you don't mind that I did that.
Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 11:12 pm:

Vic,

Thanks for posting and sharing. I think you should be able to post up to 199.999 kb size photo since you are a registered user (i.e. you have a profile). I'm not sure why you are getting the "icon" displayed rather than the picture. If you copy the one Ray posted of your truck and then repost it -- then the first one probably was too large. If you have the same "icon" show up again -- then something else is causing it (computer setting, selection you are making, etc.)

I'm a little slow -- but when you mentioned the 1920 touring I checked and now I remember looking up some top rest information related to it. I hope you are making progress on it -- and your TT looks great!

Respectfully submitted,
Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout, Sumter, SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vic Patterson on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 01:14 am:

Thank's for re-posting the picture Ray, the mirror was from George Moir our Edmonton Antique Auto Parts supplier.
Vic


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 01:28 am:

I'm glad I didn't overstep my boundaries, Vic. Can you put me in touch with George?
thanks
Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vic Patterson on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 11:37 pm:

Ray,
Unfortunately George is not yet on the internet, if you talk to George or Dwayne mention my name and they will know the mirror your looking for.

George Moir,
#1 Boulder Boulevard,
Stony Plain,
Alberta.
T7Z 1V6
Canada.
Phone 780-963-7334
Fax 780-963-6187


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