Instalation Of Pan And Trans Cover Gaskets 1926

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Instalation Of Pan And Trans Cover Gaskets 1926
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack Fusari on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 11:06 pm:

Is A Contact Cement Used When Replacing The Gaskets And Felts On The Pan And Trans Cover,
Also Should I Replace The Front Felt In The Pan At This Time. Also What Kind Of Tie Wire Is Used On The Internal Bolts That Hold The Flywheel To The Crank. Thanks Jack


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 11:20 pm:

I use Permatex gasket cement. Any NAPA store. I don't like RTV.
Transmission cover. Get a die grinder and a 1/4 inch round cutter. Cut a groove in the cover all around the radius where it will mate with the engine block. Get a 1/4 inch round O ring long enough to work. Glue it in with red RTV or gasket cement. End of leaks there. If you don't want to cut the groove, just use the Permatex and the cork gasket from the set or cut a cork or neoprene gasket to fit in there. It will tighten down and make a good seal. Neoprene is best. You can find a long enough piece by buying a valve cover gasket for a later engine such as a Chevy 350 and using part of that instead of the felt that comes in the T set.
Stainless steel safety tie wire. Available from aircraft supply houses or MSC or McMaster Carr etc. A ten dollar roll will do several engines. Or just use lock washers. Good quality American made ones. All the tie wire does is keep the bolt from coming out if it comes loose. It doesn't keep it from coming loose.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack Fusari on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 11:28 pm:

Thanks Stan, Appreciate your help. jack


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 12:36 am:

When using safety tie wire on the internal bolts of aircraft engines, we were always taught to use copper or brass wire. The reason is, unlike steel wire, which is as hard as the internal components of the engine, copper and brass is softer than the steel engine components, so if it were to come loose in the engine, it would be ground up, instead of grinding up the internal parts of the engine, so I have always used copper or brass wire when safety tying the bolts in the transmission. Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Denis Chicoine, MD on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 12:14 pm:

There was an article in the past year in the Vintage Ford regarding the front felt gasket. The thickness of this when compressed, is fairly precise. I believe it is to not only prevent leaks, but prevent excess strain on the corners. I wonder how this works with silicone or O-rings.
Noel


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 01:22 pm:

you can now get the safety wire at advance auto - its carried in the section where factory replacement parts are such as grommets, bolts, nuts, springs. If you cant get it at yours, google aircraft spruce company - you can order it on line.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 02:48 pm:

The stainless steel wire is stronger than regular steel or brass and will not rust. Brass, however, is non magnetic, and if it should break loose will not be attractrd to the magneto. If you are a belt and suspenders man, you can use lock washers AND wire!
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 03:18 pm:

As Stan stated, strength is not really an issue. All it does is keep the bolt from turning and falling out if the bolt works loose. A piece of cotton string would serve the same purpose (not recommending using it, just making the point).
As Norman said, brass or copper will not be attracted to the magnets and short out the fields should a piece get dropped. Pure stainless won't either, but is harder to work with. There is no torque on the bolts so the lightest gauge wire will work. Just don't use regular steel wire unless you want to take the chance shorting your mag.
Not disagreeing with anyone, just my experience and observtions.
Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 03:42 pm:

Stan Howe - Always looking for an opportunity to learn from somebody with lots of experience. I'd sure be interested in knowing why you prefer Permatex to RTV. Thanks to modern chemistry, RTV, with all it's variations seems to me to have some properties that make it a very useful tool. Then again, Permatex is about as old as me (maybe older) and certainly is a long trusted and still popular product. Could you elaborate a bit about your feelings and/or experience with both? Thanx,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 05:35 pm:

Not as much experience here, Harold.

Permatex is a brand name (Permatex/Loctite) and they offer RTV (room temperature vulcanizing) silicone products as well as those you call "Permatex".

Permatex #2 (non-hardening) I also prefer over silicone products, but I prefer Hylomar HPF over both of them. Hylomar is British, but also marketed by Permatex/Loctite.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 05:45 pm:

I like the smell better.

Seriously. It seems to me that when RTV's ooze out of a seam they form small soft balls of the material. They are light enough to float in oil. Permatex tends to run down the side of the pan instead of balling up. Permatex sinks to the bottom of the oil and stays there whereas the RTV balls will rise to the top of the oil,(I think) and have more of a tendency to block oil passages.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 07:42 pm:

Well, thanx you guys! There's a couple points there that I'd never have thought of. Like what can happen if excess RTV goes where you don't want it to go. Thanx Stan. And also, it might be that when people (other than you, Stan) speak of Permatex, they might actually be talking about RTV, the Permatex brand. Thanx Seth. (Actually, it's only been lately that I really knew what "RTV" was! I actually had to ask Steve Tomaso, "what's RTV?" I've been calling it "silicone rubber" since I first knew of it many years ago.).........harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Hansen on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 07:53 pm:

IMHO--RTV is great stuff, I apply heavy beads with no balling problems. Before installing the transmission cover attach a light chain with the 5/16 cover bolts, do a dry run with engine hoist lining up the band ears, high clutch in general confirm everything is in place, including the fourth main. Apply the RTV fairly heavy along sides, lay it heavy on back of engine, at the junction of the pan/transmission cover/engine really lay it in heavy (this area IMO is one of the worst for leaks), lower the hoist slowly while everything falls in place from the previous dry run. Possibly there isn't a balling problem as with the engine as well, a dry run is made, when dropping guided with pins everything falls in place without squirming everything around for lining the bolt holes. I believe a careful dry run is the answer to pan gasket leaks

I use it heavy on inspection cover on bottom of pan, use 4 bolts from inside pan to outside for guides, cover both sides of the gasket place the cover over the guides and shove the remaining bolts with sae washers through the RTV and four nuts with washers (never leaks) It is rare to find RTV in the oil screen or even in the engine pan when lifting engine off pan. Started throwing out the felt seals 20 years ago, works for me


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 07:55 pm:

I actually have a can of "Aviation Grade Permatex" that I've had for years. It is the kind you smear on with a brush. It does smell great. I do use RTV for some things, such as the center parting line in differentials. There, I use the dark red. Looks like old Indian Head Gasket Cement but doesn't have that wonderful alcohol smell.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 07:56 pm:

We used to cut our oil filters open to check for metal, and you'd be surprised how much RTV gets into the system. I tore down a forklift engine a few years ago that lost oil pressure and the pickup screen was full of long silicone worms. The biggest problem with RTV isn't the RTV itself, but rather those ding-dongs who still haven't figured out what "sparingly" means...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 08:09 pm:

RTV oozing (as Stan stated so well) is the fault of using it incorrectly. RTV should be put on sparingly, then allowed to skin. Then the parts mated and the bolts pulled down just enough to pull the parts together but not squeeze out the RTV. After an hour or so, or when the bolts can be pulled down and no RTV oozes, the bolts can be tightened to the proper torque. This way, a gasket is actually formed and pressed between the parts, not squoze out (my grand-daddy used to say squoze...I laughed everytime I heard him say it!)

Seriously though, I've used RTV and had a lot of success with it stopping stubborn leaks in vintage engines. The rule though is never tighten things down until the RTV has set.
Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 09:38 pm:

I've used both,but never had a permatex seal leak. Can't say that about RTV. I do use it above the hogs head. Put about 1/4 inch bead across there and no more leaks!


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