I have the the first set of proto disc on my 26 tudor.They have been in development for 6 mouths.Prodution will start after March 15 2008 with sales soon after. They work very well forward and backward and in the rain. Any interest.
lets see some pictures. Mike
Where will they be made, China?
I would like to see what you have developed. If it all you say it is I would be interested if the price is right.
That question is a no brainer!
Yes,there is intrest.
Give us some ideas of cost,how hard they are to install,and so on.
If they are any good, I'll take a set for front and rear on my current 1927 speedster project. If not, I will continue on with using the 55-57 brakes converted to juice.
My rear brakes are decent, but I would like to see some front brakes.
In a word,
Will they be available in small and large drum, etc.?
(I am currently trying to decide what kind of Ruckstell rear-end (large or small drum) I am going to get for my car, so the sooner the details about your brakes become public, the better...)
P.S. I meant to say, "will they be available to fit both the large and small drum style rear-ends".
(Obviously there are no drums involved with disc brakes..... )
Please give me a hint before I purchase a set of Rocky's later this winter.!!! I have a Ruckstell and NEED reliable brakes. I'd planned on getting the Rocky's after I take care of some of the last few months bills. I'm VERY interested!
REAR ONLY made in USA $850.00 with exchage pedal plus shipping Large and small drum. New brake drum.
OK, this is going to sound strange, but is there anyway of doing this without hydraulic fluid? For cars that sit a long time, the one thing mechanical brakes have over hydraulic ones, is that the brakes don't deriorate in storage, if they worked when you parked it, 99% of the time, they'll work when you start it. Hydrualics often need bleeding and repair of the cylinders after a long winter's nap!
Wilwood makes some nice calipers but the ones pictured have been discontinued. How will this affect replacement parts?
David - There are mechanical calipers available. They're called Parking/Spot calipers. They're 2-puck and not as large as the 4-puck hydraulics shown above. I doubt they'd be rated for stopping though. Might be worth looking into. I'd be concerned that the hydraulics and those 10" rotors would lock up the rear wheels with the slightest heavy foot.
Class 5 brake fluid is non-hygroscopic, David, meaning it won't absorb moisture. It's an excellent choice for all new parts.
Thanks for the pix. That's a creative way of mounting the master cylinder. It has potential for a lot of leveraged tension to put on that one mounting bolt and the corner of the hogshead, however. That goes double for an aluminum hogshead.
If you add an outboard strap like this one, then it will be much stronger. Maybe you already have that and aren't showing it.
I would test the whole mechanism by putting a gauge in the line, then getting your strongest guy to push for all he's worth on the pedal to measure the force. I would then find a way to double that force, to make sure it all holds together.
BTW, to the coward who thinks he's accusing me of something by deriding my "ersatz engineering," ersatz is German for "replacement". Ersatz teile are for sale at new car dealers and repair shops there.
Hydraulic actuation is far superior to mechanical because of control. If you want equal stopping torque at each wheel every time, you had better actuate the "whatevers" with pressurized fluid.
Yes, Dot 5 (silicone) brake fluid isn't hygroscopic but I wouldn't use it either. The hygroscopic nature of glycol brake fluids (Dot 3 & Dot 4) is a safety feature. If there is moisture contamination, in glycol brake fluids it will be absorbed and be harmless. In Dot 5 (silicone) fluid, moisture contamination will not be absorbed and localized corrosion will start.
I would use Dot 4 fluid (Castrol GT-LMA) and I would replace it every two years to remove any moisture contamination.
Dot 5 was developed to stop overweight motorcycles like Harleys. Because it cannot absorb moisture, its boiling point will never decrease - important in the grossly overworked brakes of Harleys of less than 20 years ago.
If Dot 5 was a grand idea, the automotive industry would have embraced the use of it. They have not to my knowledge.
So, if you want great brakes that stay that way, just accept the fact that they require a little bit of maintenance. Flushing and replacing fluid every two years is not that big of a deal.
Thanks for the pics! Your setup looks great and I wish you well in getting these onto hobbyist's cars. The price seems very reasonable to me since Rockys are some $600, are butt-ugly, and useless at times. I applaud your efforts!
Although I am hardly an expert in such things, I think that looks like an excellent set-up.
Do you have installation instructions available yet? A major factor for me would be how difficult (or easy) they would be to install.
Also, do you supply your small drum set with new small drums, large drum set with new large drums, or are your replacement drums "one size fits all"?
JIanson, it's a smaller market but have you thought about right hand drive cars?
Im in - I Want em asap! Sorry Henry, but I need some brakes, and that band dont cut it in todays traffic!
Looks very similar to what Paul Vitko showed us a coupla years ago.
Is that brass tee fitting (for the brake light switch) rated for the hydraulic pressure it's going to be subjected to?
Looks kinda low pressure to me.
Seth is 100 percent correct on the Dot 5 fluids. Antilock brake systems specify DOT 3 or 4 for exactly the reason he stated. Water that can't be absorbed by the DOT 5 fluid causes localized rust damage in the modulator valve assemblies and induces brake failure. Look on the master cylinder cap of any car with antilock brakes made in the past 20 years, and it will specify DOT 3 or 4 ONLY. The use of regular DOT 3 or 4 fluid and changing it as scheduled will work just fine.
Excellent looking brakes, BTW. Something I would want on a speedster.
I've used DOT 5, and had bad experiences with it. Worst was on a '41 Packard Darrin. ALL new parts, even tubing. Brakes never worked right, and the problem always varied, and was SCAREY! The owner finally had the system drained, bled and replaced with DOT 3 (I would have used DOT 4, I like it better) and ALL the problems went away. OTOH, when I had a '46 Chevy as my regular driver, I converted it over to DOT 5 with no problems. That car is now in Italy, don't know how it's doing.
Gee, that was a long time ago, before I got the T bug (I've had the A bug since grade school, I think the T bug is an advanced case. . .)
Just a question concerning the parking brake. Will you still be able to use the parking brake feature of the original T model with this set up or will it also replace that? I'm in for one of these. When will it be available?
Yes, I am interested.
Do you have a website, or is there some way that I can learn more of your background, past accomplishments, capabilities, etc? Also, where are you, and to which chapter do you belong?
I do wish you well in your endeavor to make these vehicles safer - I surely wish I knew more about you, and also about "concerned reader" . It's so much nicer to have more knowledge about a critic or vendor, than only a name.
Thanks for understanding. Dave
Thanks for the info on Dot 5, guys. Last year I looked into the differences between DOT 3 and DOT 4. The answer was DOT4 has a higher boiling point, which is important for some cars. I doubt this setup will generate much heat in the calipers.
DOT 4 fluid has a higher wet boiling point because DOT 4 fluid is of lower moisture affinity than DOT 3. This is what the LMA stands for on the Castrol bottle.
As glycol-based fluids absorb moisture, the boiling point decreases.
Harley was forced to find a fluid of very high boiling point since they insisted, for the longest time, to have undersized brakes which run too hot for conventional (wettable) brake fluids.
More on disc brakes. YES same parking brake small and large drum. For small drum new large drum fits over small drum as is done with RM brakes.Will requier change of brake pedal with one suppied.Core charge $85.00 refunded with return of old pedal.These brakes are design and manufacture by BILL THARP.a member of NORTHERN COLORADO MODEL T CLUB MTFCA. All parts are laser cut Disk are welded to new large drums.This is a complete package with very good instrutions.All bolts are class 8 .
J Ianson - I'm also interested in your disc brakes and will be looking forward to the answers for all the questions raised above. One more question - for the small drum version, will it still be possible to use accessory shock absorbers on the rear axle, like Hasslers? Thanks, Keith Gumbinger
To Keith Gumbinger:Not sure. But since there is no parts above the center line of the axle I think it could be possible.
More on disc brakes:Will be available after the 15 of March 2008.Brake light switch is a standard one sold at part houses.Brake pedel moves about a 1 1/2". Master cylinder reservoir mounts on fire wall.Calipers run cool.Can be used with Warford since TEE block is set 18" back from master cylinder.Comes with all parts and complete instructions. Order imformation will be posted later.
Hi, Dot 5 will fade at high altitudes. I have cnc mills and can help make your brackets. Let me know if I can help. I have a 25 C Cab.
JIanson I like what you're trying to do.
I hate to be disparaging but that looks like a fine setup for a hot rod, except that a hot rodder would care about it's appearance and have made it discreet.
Seth said something about ugly... Rocky Mountain is at least period but Willwood fits that description allright!
Now I know this is considered a saftey item, but would you fit harnesses and a roll cage to your T? It would be safer of course, and look equally incongruous.
With such a light car, hydraulicly operated 8" drums are more than adequate. Once they're locked then that's it. The technicore converson is still the best idea, a pity that it's no longer available.
What ever floats your boat though... I hope it goes well for you.
Drum brakes don't work well when wet, disc brakes do.
Wrap that caliper in some 23 gage cold-rolled sheet Henry-style, paint it semi-gloss black and that disc setup might not look to out-of-place at all!
I won't fit seatbelts to my speedster but if I drove fast and in whatever weather, I'd rather have the non-period disc brakes that work under any and all conditions than to compromise the look.
But, as always, to each his own.
Had the fodor that rolled while going backward down a hill after a broken rear end on the Natchez Trace Tour, had dics they could have stopped.RM would not worked at all.
Jianson - Two more questions - will the shift rod for a Ruckstell interfere with the "T" fitting mounted on the driveshaft tube? Also, could the reservoir be mounted in a less conspicuous place, like maybe under the front seat? Thanks, Keith Gumbinger
Keith:Maybe if so mount under drive shaft tube. Does not on my car.We have not mounted reservoir any other place.Might work as long as it is higher than the master cylinder.
I personally like the setup! For the past six years or so I have been using a similar setup on my 22 touring. the disks used are 10 7/8 in diameter on a small drum. the disks used in this post must be much larger. It should not take much pressure on the brake peddle to lock it up.
Good luck with your setup, nice to see someone with the guts to do some thing when many are sue happy. If one persons life is saved its worth it!! I personally am nervous about even making a positive comment!!
Paul: They do not lock up any more than RM brakes that are set up properlly. Most RM brake are not and don't work very well and not backward.These brakes were developed with safty in mind.Bill almost went off a 10" foot wall going backward with RM brakes.He said I will fix this problem. So here it is.Your ford band is left in place as a back up.just set a little loose.
From what I can tell the entire system is a bolt on.So the system could be used on a T,driven and enjoyed,and if another person bought it,they could unbolt it if they was so inclined for the "purty" factor.
Impressive as far as I am concerned.thanks for takeing the time to design,and test and market this.
If it is in my budget when i get serious on my speedster project,this is a good idea I will consider for it.
jianson- I really like the idea of disc brakes on a driver T. I, like Paul Vitko think that it can't help but save lives or injuries. Since the car was invented people have been adding things that made them prettier or faster or safer or whatever and they did it with what was available at the time. I don't see this as compromising the integrity of the T. I would like them on my original 26 Roadster.
"Drum brakes don't work well when wet, disc brakes do."
Uh, no brakes work well when wet. I've had wet disc brake fade, albeit briefly, in cars with 4-wheel disc brakes, namely Porsche 914 and Jaguar XJ.
I've been driving a T with 4-wheel drum brakes for over 10 years, and tens of thousands of miles, including a day in NY/Mass, with 9 inches of rain and flooding. The only fade was momentary, and maybe because I had not sealed the holes in the backing plates.
Anything to improve safety is welcome, and good wheel brakes improve safety. How much you can shorten stopping distance with rear-only brakes is limited, however. It depends on two things: coefficient of friction (not size) of tires, and percentage of weight on the braking wheels. The harder you brake, the less weight there will be on the rears, so don't expect as much help in a light tailed car like a roadster or speedster, compared to a Touring with live ballast in back.
I've often wondered how many Ts spend most of their lives as garage queens, due to limited brakes.
In reality.. How many people are so ANAL as to look under your T and complain about the brakes? If they are that anal they know where to stick-it. By the time its painted black I don't think it would be noticable. I like this ideas better than my mechanical ones.
How many people? How many purists with garage or trailer queens are there?....Seth
I build my cars to go, not stop!
I wish I lived on a deserted island with roads as good as those in Texas so I could do as you do.
Well, now we have Mr. Bugatti posting here. Immaturity has no limit.
I've seen several T's with disc brakes on the rear.
The Fiat 124 spider was a good brake caliper to use because it had a handbrake right in the caliper that would work on the T without and band or shoe or drum.
I don't want to knock the set-up we are discussing here and it will certainly stop a car going backwards, but so will a drum with good modern shoes inside.
I have a '26 touring with a 1987 Dodge D-50 pickup rear end. it has drum brakes. I have a hydraulic master cylinder from some old car. Maybe a Chev.
My point is, I can stop real well, forward or backward, by pulling on the handbrake lever.
I often slide the wheels when driving but I don't think it would slide them going backwards even if I hit the brake pedal and pulled the handbrake lever at the same time. It just stops! RIGHT NOW!
So why do I need hydraulic brakes? If I hook up my pedal tp the hand brake cable I will be able to slide right through the intersection just as fast as anybody else with only rear brakes.
A T needs a slight improvement on the rear brakes. Anymore is useless.
Those same brakes on the front would decrease stopping distance from 70 to 120%.
Pedal a bike as fast as you can and grab the rear brake real hard. See how far you slide, Now do it with the front.
Well he musta slowed down for a second or he couldnt posted here!
"roads as good as those in Texas". ??? LOL... Maybe someday. They seem to be all under construction at this time. On a recent trip to Virginia, Texas roads were the worst. Took me two hours to get through Houston. West Texas isn't any better either and San Antonio has been a mess around the I10/410 interchange for going on 10 years! Seems they've been working on I35 to Dallas for the last 40 years.
Oh well, some day.
I like the disk brake setup but they seem a little oversized for a 1700lb. car. I'll stick with my plans for the time being.
Will they be able to be uesd on a right hand drive car without modifiction. I would be interested in a set as I use my T as a daily driver. Looking for easy fitting.
For use in right hand drive cars, I wonder whether all that is required is a longer master cylinder holder (as the brake pedal is further from the centre of the car than it is in LHD) with perhaps with a reinforcing strap as Ralph suggested above?
Sorry boys I don't mean to be silly but Ricks has made a few good pionts.
Firstly drum brakes are a better brake, they are self energising and require less pedal effort. Disc brakes have been adopted because they are self adjusting and dissipate heat better when you're racing.
Now any real improvement in saftey would dictate front brakes are installed... and the wishbone arrangment reinforced to suit.
A properly maintained 26/27 handbrake will lock the rear wheels if you so desire. With semi floating wheel bearings even a broken axle won't render them inoperative.
I could be labeled as anal, point taken. Black paint will cover up a lot of sins but I guess what I'm try to say is have a look at some of the period hot rods getting about in your local magazine rack. They use the hot rod traditional model A(?) front axle with finned aluminium drums and detailed backing plates. It looks great.
Now the eally cool part is in the detail. It's only when you read the text that you realise the innovation, hard work and attention required because there is a disc brake hidden inside this period hardware. No adjustments to make and little chance of it getting wet either.
I'm working on my own speedster brakes and I'll post pictures if they come to fruition. My standard '24 Model T doesn't need them though. I drive it everywhere and have never had a problem stopping it. I just accept the fact that if someone crashes into me I'm buggered.
This setup is highly functional and can be removed without "injury" to the car which is great.
It's great to see somone making something for everyone to benefit from. Go for it boys.
My lament is that going to so much effort strikes me as a waste when only a little more pride taken, some clever engineering, some innovation would make it a more in keeping with a restoration. Rather than something modern that though nicely executed, appears to be cobbled up and hung on.
Don't mind me just keep up the good work!
Ricks - Surf City - You mentioned that you've been driving a T with four wheel drum brakes for 10 years. That sure took my eye. I still maintain that in all properly designed brake systems, simple physics dictates that the front brakes should do the big half of the braking, simply due to forward weight shift when stopping.
Ricks-Surf City - Would you mind sharing photos and description of your front wheel drum brakes on a new thread so as not to "hijack" Jianson's thread? Thanx
Jianson - Not to detract from your efforts at all; I really like what you're doing; it's just that I'd like to keep the expense down and stick with mechanically operated drum brakes for that reason.
Thanks for all the good posts about the disc brakes.Will post more later on ordering and availability.Prodution will start March 15 2008.Jim. email@example.com
Will they work on wood and wire wheels? Rick
RICK LAWSON: Yes if the wood wheels are sound no loose spokes.Wire wheels are good .
More on disc brakes:Two sets are runing.One set on Bills car and one on mine.Four sets sold no report back yet.Will report back when I hear any thing. Jim
JIanson, I sent you an email a few days ago. No response. Did you get it?
Ricks-SurfCity Thanks for your post.
I am glad to see that you have worked out the disc brake details they look great. I have a 15 Touring with a Perfecto (before Ruckstell)Axle (with a neutral) and small drums with 26/27 wire wheels. I need hydraulic brakes that work going both directions for my driveway with an 8% grade.
The wire wheels overhang the small drums to the point where there is only 5/8" of the drum showing. There is exactly 1" horizontally from the inside edge of the small drum to the wire spokes. It looks like the part of the caliper in your photo that is toward the wheel may get very close to the wire spokes.
Put me on your order list if we can work this out.
I'll be glad to see some type of disc brakes go into production. Especially close to RM costs. I am looking for a set of brakes for the cross country in 2009. It's easier to make up a spare rear end - one for serious touring and one for the purist. Perhaps now I'll hold out and see how these develop. This would be rather good considering I let my wife drive and well as teaching others. To stop in traffic is a fine thing indeed.
jianson - keep the forum updated regularly. I watch with interest as my project takes shape.
MORE ON DISC BRAKE: WILL KEEP FORUM UPDATED. NOT MUCH MORE TO ADD UNTILL MARCH 2008 AND PRODUCTION STARTS.
I'm a little concerned about your mounting arrangement for the master cylinder. When someone stomps on the brake, as we all do in a panic, I'm afraid that the long mounting plate will over power the two bolts attaching it. The upper bolt goes through the cast iron flange of the hog's head and will bear the highest loading. I'm really concerned about the ability of the cast iron flange to take that load. The other bolt, that goes into the pan, is also of concern. That fine thread bolt, so far extended from the application of force, (i.e. the cylinder plunger), may strip out the hole in the pan if the upper bolt breaks the cast iron flange as described above. Also, factor in that, after almost 100 years, a lot of hog's heads have less than perfect threads in those locations to begin with. Remember, those bolts and the holes they go in were not designed to support a lever arm with possibly as much as 1000 lbs. loading. (1000 lbs. based on 250 lbs. pedal pressure X a "guesstimated" 4:1 ratio between the pedal arm length above the pedal shaft and the actuation arm length below the pedal shaft.)
My father installed hydraulic drum brakes on our '26 Fordor twenty years ago. He made a simple bracket that attaches to the frame. It has worked well. I'm not saying he had the ONLY solution. I would strongly urge you to re-evaluate your mounting design however.
Also, I would suggest mounting your "T" fitting for the brake lines farther up the torque tube while running the lines farther up the radius rods. Less chance for something to snag those lines and bend or break them. Less chance for vibration in the long, unsupported stretch from the radius rod to the "T" fitting. And, a more discrete routing.
Thanks for your efforts to make our hobby safer.
Glenn, that is one sharp looking speedster you've got there!
I would agree with Jerry's observation Not being an engineer the only credentials going for me is a similar setup in use for six years. The mount holding the caliper is bolted over the radius rods as is my setup. That disk must be about 15 inches in diameter. the radius rod bolts are about 3 1/4 on center. repeated forward stopping would pivot the bracket into the disk in my uneducated opinion. A third bolt would cure that problem.
Jerry : Thanks for the input.Will look into it. Jim
Greetings Everyone, Have their been any updates about this thread?
Once again, any new info on these brakes?
I e mailed him and have had no response.
I have talked to them several times up till about 2 weeks ago. I think I have his phone number and will post when I can get to it. Every time I e mailed him he called me back. I put my phone number on my emails to him. You might try that.
I e-mailed him this morning and got the following response:
"PRODUCTION WILL START NEXT WEEK IF WE GET THE NEW DRUMS. PRICE WILL BE $850.00 with a core charge of $85.00 for the brake peddle will be refuned on reture of old peddle.Let us know if wire wheels 26/27 wood or 25 back wood. Jim"
So, they do appear to be in the works. I'm assuming that he will let us know when they are ready for sale.