Cleaning interior intake manifold

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Cleaning interior intake manifold
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By larry on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 08:15 pm:

What is the best to clean the inside of the intake manifold ?
Thank you --Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 08:21 pm:

Carb & Choke Cleaner works great, though it may not be the best.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By larry on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 08:32 pm:

There is rust inside too ,i was thinking of sand blast but im afraid i wont be able to clean it well as not to get sand to the motor and scar the pistons
Also if anyone knows of a paint i can use inside or just leave it natural
Thank you Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 08:37 pm:

Carb & Choke Cleaner first to get the oily crud out, then Coca-Cola to remove the rust. I wouldn't paint the inside.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa in Poulsbo, WA on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 09:03 pm:

I usually bead blast mine then wash thoroughly. What little residual that might be left is no worse then what we suck up through the unfiltered stovepipe every time we drive.


Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By larry on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 09:20 pm:

Seth..Coca Cola?...How long does it take to remove rust
and how do i do it ? seal and fill? or just wash
I do have ospho rust converter ,will that do?
Thank You for the input .....Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenny Edmondson on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 09:25 pm:

Larry, whether you go for the carb cleaner method or the bead blasting method, make sure you run a coat hanger wire or something else into the intake ports to check for mud dobber wasp nests.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 09:28 pm:

Coca-Cola has phosphoric acid in it. It'll take the rust out. No way to say how long. You'll just have to put it in, wait a couple hours and look at it. If there's still rust there, try it for a couple more hours. Vinegar will do the same thing but a little faster, expecially if you warm it on the stove. Stinks to high heaven though!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 09:30 pm:

Hot vinegar or Coke will also dissolve mud dauber nests. You might want to pick up a bottle brush and scrup the runners too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 09:37 pm:

Ospho will work - same phosphoric acid. It, or Coca-Cola will need to soak the inside and may take overnight. If it overeats a little bit, you'll just end up with a semi-big bore manifold, maybe good for an extra quarter horse (not the four-legged kind).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Cullen on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 11:59 pm:

The coca-cola rust removal properties are so weak as to be insignificant. This was debunked on Mythbusters last year. Your best bet would be to degrease it, sand or bead blast the outside, then use the electrolysis method to take care of the rest if necessary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Cullen on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 12:18 am:

The coca-cola rust removal properties are so weak as to be insignificant. This was debunked on Mythbusters last year. Your best bet would be to degrease it, sand or bead blast the outside, then use the electrolysis method to take care of the rest if necessary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Cullen on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 12:19 am:

oops, sorry about the double post....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 12:58 am:

Mike, no disrespect to you, but Mythbusters also "debunked" the idea of jerking the rearend out of a police car with a chain as done in "American Graffiti", but only proved how ignorant they really are by using a coil spring car when the car in the movie had leaf springs. The 2 rolled ends of the main leaves will in fact "unroll" and release, and the rear half of the spring (remaining attached) will act as a lever and catapult the rear of the car upward. There are 8 holes (two on each arm) in stamped steel control arms that must tear out simultaneously in order to release the rearend, and then it would only allow the car to move forward by whatever clearance there is between the housing and other parts of the car. They botch many of their "busted myths" due to not having a clue what they are actually trying to bust. Too much television blurs the mind...don't believe everything that Hollywood feeds us.

The phosphoric acid in Coke will remove rust, just as vinegar will do. It won't do it fast, and neither will do it if there is a coating of oil or grease. In the same way during the plating process grease is used to mask areas where plating is not wanted, it will also prevent weak acids from attacking rust.

I promise you, regardless of what those two Hollywood actors say, if you wash a rusty piece of steel, iron, or aluminum in a good solution of hot water and dishwashing soap (I prefer Dawn or powdered soap for dishwashers), and then put it in 100-125 degree Coke or vinegar, it will remove the rust down to clean metal. No one can convince me it doesn't work when I've done it. I wasn't dreaming

Clean the metal with HOT water-based detergent. IF solvent is necessary, it will still need a detergent bath. Solvents dilute the oils and spread the diluted oil over the metal, where the solvent evaporates and leaves a film of oil that still has to be removed. Coke has a hard time even getting past the oils left by fingerprints.

The acid in Coke is very weak, and if there is any scale it will take days instead of hours to remove it. Anything other than light surface rust will almost always need a refreshing since the acid will neutralize before it has effectively removed any substantial rust. Seth may have had different results, but that's been my personal experience. Vinegar, on the other hand, has a much higher concentration and even diluted 1:1 with water will remove all but the heaviest scale, and after a few hours that will brush off with a small wire brush.

There is little danger of damaging the "good" iron by soaking for an extended period with vinegar, but don't use stronger acids such as muriatic (attacks the good iron as destructively as it attacks the rust). I know that from experience too. I ruined a very hard to find distributor for the dual-quad Buicks by cleaning it with diluted muriatic. When the rust was gone (after about 20 minutes), the machined surfaces were falling apart and the threads were gone from the holes. Expensive lesson! From that point on, I either use diluted phosphoric (sold as "metal conditioner" or "etching acid" by parts stores) or vinegar.

Again, I'm not trying to start a debate with you, Mike, or anyone else on this forum. I just don't like Hollywood calling me a liar when I know it works and I've used it for years. I haven't used Coke in a long time, because it just doesn't provide the results I wanted. I still use vinegar though, but a few years ago I invested in a blasting cabinet so most parts are bead blasted now. I still soak steel and brass screws and bolts, small brackets and hardware that are hard to hold in the blaster, and anything that has cracks and crevices that are too hard to reach blasting.

One more thing; since the freshly cleaned parts are wet, they need to be dried immediately. That is another benefit of heating the solution. The hot parts can be wiped with paper towels and the remaining moisture will evaporate almost immediately from the hot metal. Thin parts tht cool quickly are better off removed from the solution and dropped into boiling water for a few seconds, then wiped dry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 07:31 am:

Seth has had no results using Coca-Cola because he uses MetalPrep.

Several months ago a regular participant on this forum asked how he could free the seized starting handle on his engine crank. I told him to use Coca-Cola which he did and it worked. In that same thread one participant warned not to use it because it would eat everything.

So we've heard that Coca-Cola will do almost nothing to it will eat up steel and iron in no time.

I'd be willing to bet that it will remove rust way up inside that manifold that a bead blaster will never touch, but it won't do it nearly as fast as Ospho or Metal Prep.

Not that a little rust inside the manifold could hurt anything anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas J. Miller on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 09:07 am:

Now if you really want it clean and smooth inside.... http://www.boneheadperformance.com/services/extrudehone.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph Wayne Rudzik on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 02:02 pm:

Guys,
In my high school science class we put a piece of steak into a bottle of coca-cola and a nail in another bottle.
At the end of the week the steak looked like mud. The nail was still dissolving.
My dad cleaned the battery posts of his Buick with my bottle of coke and gave me the rest to drink.
It does work. I agree that Mythbusters does not always hit the mark. There are times they leave a lot to be properly tested.

Joe R.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph Wayne Rudzik on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 02:03 pm:

P.S.
We usded the original recipe Coca-Cola, not diet, or any of the "fresh" formulas. That may make a difference. Use Classic Coke.

Joe R.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George House on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 02:27 pm:

Be careful which cast iron intake manifold you choose to restore and use! Like a lot of ya'll out there I have more than a Hudson trunkload of Model T parts and one day I was monkeying around with 7-8 cast iron intake manifolds when I discovered a leftover hunk of cast slag sticking out in the interior air/fuel flow. Thinking "that can't be good for an atomized mixture" I checked them all with my little finger on the inside and, sure enough 2 others had a lot of rough slag in there. Wouldn't this be a dertiment to performance?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Schultz-Rathbun on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 06:01 pm:

I've used a product called Evaporust. Put the rusty piece to soak overnight and even heavily rusted parts come out rust free. I didn't believe it until I had tried it, but it works.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth H. Todd on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 07:53 pm:

Iv'e heard that dilute mollasses works well as a rust remover.
Anybody know what's in it that does the job?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Swan on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 08:40 pm:

Ray is right on target with the coke and vinegra process. And, Ken Todd, you need to use sorghum molasses but it is so expensive that it may not be practical. A word of caution to all, be careful how you use vinegar on cast iron, you can ruin a piece of metal in a very short while. When in doubt, blast it or use the electrolysis method.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy D Eyssen on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 10:51 pm:

I believe phosphoric acid is the main ingredient in some of the mentioned products and that is what makes them work. I can vouch for Evapo Rust (which is eco friendly) having used it for several years---also as Ken says, the electrolysis method works great.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 04:24 am:

OH heck! Blow it out with the sand blaster. Inside and out. Tap it on the work top. paint the outside (if you want). The car lived in dust. Thay have lasted this long! It's not that big of a deal, OK!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 04:41 am:

40% molasses to water in a big plastic drum is quite good. It takes some time and needs aerating occasionally but is an environmentally friendly, low impact, quiet and effective method. I think the process is an organic one... bugs living in the mollases at rust but not iron.

Give it a go:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 05:43 am:

Anthony, if you throw in a little yeast, by the time the rust is gone you should be able to distill a bit 'o rum.

Actually, Mark is right. Blow bead or sand into the runners really good, wash it out or blow it, paint it and run it. Manifolds are cast with sand at the factory. It comes out then, it'll come out now.
Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nelson Jones on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 10:32 pm:

When I first got my T I made a stupid mistake which I do not care to go into but the T was only running on two cyls. After exausting all other things I could think of I cut the intake in two thinking it may have been plugged with mud or some other thing. It was clean so I brazed it back togeather. After I found the problem it ran great so I must have done a good job brazing. No vacuum leaks. What I am leading up to is cut it in half,clean it & braze it back togeather.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By alsparks on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 01:01 am:

Sorry, I'm new on this and new to T's.

I'm working both ends of the spectrum. On the one hand, my son and I are working on a 1986 Porsche 944 Turbo and on the other we have a 1924-26 T. Don't know if we are coming or going.

Anyway, the boys on the performance side swear by extrudehone. This is a process that is offered for our Porsche intakes and other mfgs. This process is great for cleaning but more important, for the speed boys, is the smooth interior that you get and of course the HP boost. Don't know if you are familiar with this but I'm sure it would do what you want (plus the HP boost!).

It won't be cheap. Intake for the 944's is about $400. I have not done it but am considering it.

Google extrudehone and there may be someone set up to T's. Group purchases are a way to drop the price by 10-20%. Good Luck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Mortensen on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 08:58 am:

If you decide to go with phosphoric acid, a cheap source can be found at farm supply stores (at least in dairy country) as milk stone remover. Calcium builds up over time in milking equipment and the equipment has to be soaked in this stuff periodically to remove the deposits. I neutralize the acid effect with a soak in baking or washing soda solution afterwards.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth H. Todd on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 11:13 am:

Will the phosphoric acid eat brass? As in carburetors, etc.
I have a tiny brass part that I'm trying ro get the rusted steel pin out of.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Mortensen on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 02:35 pm:

I wouldn't use any type of acid on non-ferrous material. I'd suggest putting the the brass part in the oven when the wife's not looking, run it up to 350 degrees and pull it out, let it cool off. This is what most of the guys recommend for getting steel parts out of brass items.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 03:06 pm:

In a previous thread, maybe a year or two ago, someone said to never use vinegar to remove rust from cast iron - that it would turn the cast iron into butter. Is this true and why does this happen?

I have been experimenting with the molasses method and so far it has worked very well. I purchased a gallon bottle of livestock molasses at the local fleet and farm store for about $8.00. Not expensive at all.

In the past, I used a 5 to 1 ratio of water to molasses. It took about four to five weeks to remove rust from heavily rusted parts (left in the grove for at least 50 years).

I am currently soaking some NOS crankshafts with some light surface rust (using a wallpaper tray). I am using a stronger mixture - 3 to 1.

The beauty of the molasses method is that you can just throw the items in the mixture and walk away. For small stuff a glass jar with a lid works. For larger items, I use a five gallon plastic paint pail with lid that I got for free from the local paint store. If you really want to go big time, a plastic trash can with a lid will work as well as the tupperware style flat storage boxes that can be purchased at Walmart or Target.

After soaking, there will be a light haze. Simply give the item a quick once over on the wire brush wheel and it will be bright and shiny.

Erik Johnson
Minneapolis, MN


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Alongi on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 10:00 pm:

I agree with Randy Shultz on EvapoRust, the name sounds like it may be Snake Oil but this stuff works & doesn't hurt the metal & is reusable.

http://www.evaporust.com/evaporust.html

Alex


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy D Eyssen on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 10:43 pm:

Been using Evapo Rust for years, and it works--'nuff said. Regards, Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 10:55 pm:

Isn't electrolosis a line of sight method? If so, I doubt it will clean the inside of a manifold unless you fashion some cathodes (or is it annodes?) that fit inside without touching.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 07:40 am:

Erik, vinegar doesn't turn cast iron into butter. That was stated by someone who has never used it and it is evident they didn't know, or had heard it from someone else who didn't know. As Seth stated above, one forum poster told them not to use Coke because it eats everything. You can't listen to everything that's said, and for that matter you don't have to listen to me either! :-)

I've been restoring and hot-rodding cars for 25 years and used vinegar by the case because it is cheaper, safer, and less harsh on metal than other acids. I've never once ruined a piece of cast iron with vinegar. As previously stated, I did with muriatic. I use phosphoric or muriatic on steel, and phosphoric on aluminum. I use vinegar or weak phosphoric on brass.

Anyway, I need to look into your molasses method. Interested in what is in molasses that removes the rust. I still think you guys using molasses need to throw together a still. We ridgerunners know a little bit about that, too!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 07:48 am:

Ray,

If you try the molasses make sure that the container is covered unless you want fruit flies moving into your neighborhood.

That's what I've read here and I believe it! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Pawelek on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 08:33 am:

Here is a page that discusses molasses, vinegar and electroylsis use and has some good information....Michael Pawelek
http://www.antiqueautoranch.com/montana500/adrian/rust.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 08:42 am:

Surely it can't be no worse than hot vinegar chewing on rust and bubbling that noxious odor that you can smell two counties away!

I just wanna do the molasses thing to cook off the bacteria pee!

A shot doesn't sound near as appealing when referred to in that manner, does it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Friday, January 25, 2008 - 11:33 am:

Why do we insist on fooling around with smelly, off the wall concoctions of Coke, molasses and heaven knows what, that takes days to work, when you could have it sandblasted and perfectly clean in 5 minutes? Is there something in the nature of Model T'ers that makes us want to take the long route, the road less traveled, the unconventional? It's like why would you want to buy a nice new screwdriver from Sears when you could make one by whittling down an old piece of Model T leaf spring. (Which reminds me, I once made a screwdriver out of a Model T valve. Sharpening the stem to a screwdriver blade and screwing a half-round, wood ball to the valve head. Oh, my God, I'm one of you too!)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, January 25, 2008 - 12:00 pm:

Rust is like a pimple. Metal has pores (for lack of a better description) and just because you cleaned the surface, doesn't mean that there is no rust lurking under the surface.

Soaking gets it all.

So what if soaking takes time. I can put small stuff in a container of molasses elixer and leave it unattended and the results are great.

Approx. 25 years ago, there used to be a commercially produced product called "Rust Biox" and it worked great - especially on cleaning up nickel plated items. I think it was nothing more than a mixture of vinegar and cornstarch wallpaper paste.

Erik Johnson
Minneapolis, MN


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