Rear wheel's won't budge

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Rear wheel's won't budge
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 11:24 pm:

A week or so ago I was looking for some advice on removing my rear wheel's. They need to be respoked. I tried every suggestion without success.

I have beat on the shaft, beat on the shaft with the nut, tried two type's of wheel puller's, beat like hell on both of them, air hammered the axle's, air hammered both puller's while on the hub, and air hammered the puller on the hub while my father and I sat on the floor, braced ourselve's and pulled on the fellow for all we were worth. Nothing!

These hub's/wheel's are not rusty. How can they be on this tight? I've removed wheel's before, and even though they did'nt fall right off, they were not like these.

I am about two minute's away from grinding, drilling, or torching the carriage head's off. Then I will remove the hub faceplate, remove the spoke's, and then heat the tar out of the bare hub's. Any other idea's before I get really mean to this rearend?

I don't want to sound like a hot headed, short tempered fool here, but I don't have the spare time to waste like I described above. I can't go and spend however many hour's like I spent out there tonight and have nothing to show for it.

What do you guy's suggest I do here?

Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 11:31 pm:

I had a wheel like that once and it turned out that someone had installed a shim on the taper and the whole mess almost fused on the shaft. After trying everything else to get the wheel off I finally backed off on the nut then drove around the block and the wheel was loose by the time I got back into my driveway. Hope it works for you!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth H. Todd on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 11:34 am:

Years ago my oldest brother was redoing the brakes on his '39 Ford. He couldn't get the left rear hub off, so he left the nut slightly loose and drove around the block, no luck.
He drove that car for a month before that hub came loose.
Sometimes they just don't want to come off.

What you might try is with a good puller on real tight, back up one side of the hub with an 8 or 10 pound hammer or such and then smack the opposite side with a 3 or 5 pound hammer. Like we used to do on tie-rod ends.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chuck Martin on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 02:31 pm:

Since you plan on respoking anyway, take off the nut and heat the hub from the shaft end with a torch, spokes intact, staying away from the axle. Once it is good and hot, try the wheel puller again. I don't like to beat on the axle directly or with a nut on it, you could end up replacing the axles as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken - SAT on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 03:26 pm:

Ditto what Chuck says. The previous owner may have soaked the parts in Loctite bearing locker or who knows what goop. Heat will break the bond and expand the hub.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 07:01 pm:

Guy's,

The vehicle can not be driven at this time, so that idea won't work. And I don't know if I want to try that anyway. You take a chance at distorting the taper of both the hub and the axle that way.

I guess I'll try the "hotwrench". I just did'nt want to do it that way with the spoke's still installed. I have removed old wheel's with heat. I was sucessful, but I had a nice wood fire going too. And the heat was not applied for very long.

I'm afraid that these thing's are going to need so much heat that I will have nothing but charcoal left. The large amount of smoke and flame's will not be pleasant.

Either way, they need to come apart and they will be apart, one way or another. I just don't know how ugly it's going to get.

Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel (Indiana Trucks) on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 08:28 pm:

Steve,
I had the same problem on the 26 touring my wife is restoring and I busted a wheel puller that had never been used on one wheel. After welding the puller back together I put it on as tight as it would go and then used a good size hammer on the end of it a few times. Then I turned the bolt again a little and went at it with the hammer some more. I found it would turn a little each time and even turned it while hitting with the hammer. After several times doing it this way it let go and the axle taper was a mess with machine marks all over it. Both sides were the same way so the axles must have been made on a bad day back then. I will not use those axles again and the hubs would also not be much good.

You might give this a try and also jack up the other side so the wheel you are NOT working on is off the ground. My next try was going to be heat but like you I didn't want smoke and who knows what it will do to the metal?

Good luck,
Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eck on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 08:40 pm:

I don't know if this works but I was talking to a fellow with the same problem with a Crosley car that uses a tapered axle. He said that he used candle wax on the axle when it was hot. After it cooled it came off with no problem with a puller. The wax worked its way between the hub and axle. I think I remember that was how you pulled axle on old tractors to change the spacing on them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Mortensen on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 09:05 am:

Another possibility why the hubs are stuck. Some oldtimers used to throw a little sand or grit on the axle before setting the hub if the hub kept loosening up. That would cause a similar situation to the one Bob McDaniel mentioned in his post.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 10:54 am:

A little machinist's trick is to put a little chalk dust on a taper to make it grab. Works great. I realize this doesn't get Steve's wheel off, sorry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim ( Gen3AntiqueAuto ) on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 01:34 pm:

If your not in a hurry: Try putting the puller on again, put as much tension on it as you can (impact wrench), soak it in something on it like liquid wrench and leave. Come back daily and see if you can add more tension. It may pop off in a few days.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Grady Puryear on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 06:16 pm:

Tim, I did a similar stunt one time, had a stuck king pin in a front axle. Nothing worked, so I put it in a BIG hydraulic press, really rared on the pump handle, and went outside to eat my sack lunch. About half way through, I heard a terrible racket, the king pin had come loose, hit the concrete shop floor, made a considerable hole, then bounced back up through the tin roof. I would be careful aound anything I had pressured up on and went off and left. My .02


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim ( Gen3AntiqueAuto ) on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 08:42 pm:

Yeah, but it worked...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By carl on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 03:29 pm:

I am having the same problem Steve is having. I have a 26 I am switching over to wire wheels. One wheel came off smoothly. The other I can not get off. Like Steve, I have used 2 types of wheel pullers, (broken one), hammered the wheel, the axle, and anything else I could vent frustration on, driven the car approximately twenty miles over very rough roads. tried doing turns in various directions. Drove the car with a wheel puller on, under pressure. So far the most offered suggestion is to drill the key way. I am seriuosly considering this, but would like a better way. Any additional suggestions before I start drilling.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By david spence on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 03:35 pm:

Hi Gentlemen,

I had similar problems with a friends 26 touring last weekend , we tried everything to get that wheel off , we hit it pulled it and drove it at least 20 miles with the wheel nut loose all to no ends , my thinking is that a previous owner has fitted shims and they have fused on to the axle shaft.

We broke a wheel puller and decided to get the big boys toys out and hired a big 3 jaw hub puller to no effect , even drove it around the yard with the puller on, still nothing .

Things are now getting desperate , we both feel that heat on the shaft would be inappropriate , any thoughts would be appreciated .

What about the technique of freezer spray?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By david spence on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 03:39 pm:

Sorry to repeat ourselves, must be getting old but both the above two posts are linked sorry Carl .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 10:32 pm:

Dave & Carl,

Your right Dave, thing's are getting desparate.

I have discussed my (our) problem with a few people, including Lang's, and we are all in agreement at this point. The glove's are comin' off! It's gonna' get ugly! Everyone, please put your safety glasses on and back away from the vehicle...

I did'nt want to go this far, but this is what I'm going to do. The spoke's were going to be replaced anyway, so they are coming off. I will remove the carriage bolt head's, then the hub face plate, then the spoke's. I will then heat the bare hub directly with the puller installed.

I am going to order the puller Lang's have. I feel the split type with the side bolt is a stronger tool and will "hold" the hub thread's better.

Due to a pretty hectic schedule this week, I probably won't be able to attack it,...um, I mean work on it till this weekend. Hopefully I will have good new's to report and I don't have any problem's with the bolt's, face plate, or spoke's!

Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bender on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 10:42 pm:

Just a stupid questions. If we are talking about rear hubs could it have safty hubs installed that have a set screw holding the bearing in the housing. Just a thought.

Mike Bender
Tulsa OK


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris S. Hill on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 10:54 pm:

Steve,

Isn't there any T guys near you that can lend a hand?

Chris.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 11:05 pm:

Mike,

I do not know anything about "safety hub's". What are they and how can I tell if I have them or not? Where is the "set screw"?

On the rearend's I have worked on, the hub's had to be removed to see and remove the wheel bearing.

Chris,

There are a few guy's around here, but their just as mystified as I am with these.

Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 11:31 pm:

Take rear end apart,remove center carrier,(cut spokes off), and put it in a big press. Something will give. You need the relief.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bender on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 11:58 pm:

Steve go to http://www.modeltford.com/catalog/Catalog-2007-1.pdf page 10 shows a safety hub. I have seen set screws in the axle housing, pins installed in the grease cups to hold the unit in place. Don't know that you have these but if you do you will break things before you know it with out getting the keeper out.

Mike Bender


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By carl on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 11:02 am:

Steve: Let me know how things go. Everyone I have talked to is saying- Drill it out. I have part way, with no releaf. My fear is I am damaging the key way at the same time. One problem I have is we have worked on this so hard I have stripped the threads on the hub.

Mike: I do not know about Steve's hub, but I am pretty sure mine are not the safety hubs. I can not imagine putting on one safety hub and not the other. My first wheel came off without a hitch. Like Steve I am getting desparate.

Carl


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim ( www.Gen3AntiqueAuto.com ) on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 02:35 pm:

Steve with no profile, where are you. If your within 50 miles or so of me, I'll come over with my three jaw puller. Call me if your nearby.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 10:09 pm:

Tim,

Thank's for the offer, but I have access to quite a variety of jaw-puller's. I'm not certain as to how you are using your's. Are you putting the jaw's between the spoke's and hooking them on the brake drum?

Jack,

Take the rear end apart to remove the wheel's??? I thought taking the spoke's out first was going to be a lot of work and a waste of time! I'll cut/grind the bare hub off and start again with two different and complete wheel's before I would remove and dissasemble a rear end for a spoke replacement job.

I suppose if the rear end needed rebuilding and it was already sitting by itself on the floor out there, that would make sense. I'm trying to work smarter, not harder, although it has'nt worked that way so far.

Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By andy samuelson on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 10:34 pm:

Steve; You might end up takeing it all apart anyhow. All that banging and hammering can't be to good for that old half dead babbitt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 10:49 pm:

Steve,Laugh if you want,but we had to do just that on one here about a week ago. You'll spend less time and be back together ,rather than hammering away your life. Those axles are probably no good anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth H. Todd on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 12:08 pm:

Carl said: "Everyone I have talked to is saying- Drill it out."
I would think that is an impossible task, being that the threaded end of the axle is parallel to the centre line and the keyway is on an angle.
How are you supposed to get in there to drill at an angle?
Some kind of special bit that goes around corners?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tman on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 12:32 pm:

At this point I would cut the heads off the carriage bolts holding the spokes than slit the hub by the key and than use a chisel to open up the slit and pull it off the axle and replace the wheel spokes and hub.

Just my way of getting even, with an ornery hub.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Nordstrom on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 02:09 pm:

Just a thought. I had this same problem recently when trying to get a wheel off. I am in the process of replacing the spokes so I removed some of the spokes, put a medium length cats paw with the L shape end up against the flange and the other end hanging down past the axle. I then used a C clamp to secure the L shaped end to the flange. One hit with the hammer on the end below the axle popped the wheel right off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By david spence on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 05:34 pm:

Hi Kenneth ,

Thanks for your input in stating the obvious in your comments , sure is good to to know you are out there and have given this some careful thinking ,I am sure as a T guy you have more positive opinions please bring it on and lets hear them.

Dan and T Man , Thanks for your input ,I think you are right and have valid points as I believe that this is the only way to allieviate damage to the axle shaft and the thrust bearing is to cut the hub and wheel which is something Carl and I have tried at all costs to avoid .

This problem cannot be an isolated occurance during the past 100 years and would be pleased to listen to all thoughts , come on guys lets get these 2 cars back on the road where they should be.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Spainhower on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 08:02 pm:

I just won this battle with my '26, so for what it's worth...

First I wouldn't recommend attempting to drill out the key. That's not what's stuck. It's the taper. Morse taper machine tool holders that don't have keys get just as stuck, particularly if there's any rust involved. (Been there.) Second, a properly matched taper won't seat or release with pressure alone. It's the metal-to-metal shock that does it.

What worked for me was was to apply the puller, torque it down, give a tiny shot of penetrant down the keyway, and leaving it that way overnight. Next day, I torqued it some more, applied heat (with a heat gun instead of a torch - much less risk of damage), and then hit the side of the puller right at its outer edge. This is similar to what Kenneth posted earlier that mimics driving over a bump, but it also shocks the puller while it's under tension. I just used a 16oz. ball peen hammer, and I was surpised that it didn't take much of a hit to release the taper this way, while all the serious hammering directly on the end of the puller bolt didn't touch it.

I don't know what to suggest about stripped threads on the hub other than the Lang's clamp-down puller. I was working with wire wheels, which don't use a thread-on puller. What I found inside was a partially disintegrated axle shim, with rust where the shim was gone - enough to make it a real bear. The hub probably hadn't been off since the '60s. The only thing I'd do differently (which was really stupid in hindsight) is to wear a full face shield in case the cheap Chinese cast iron puller let go before the hub did.

- Bruce


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 12:14 am:

Jack,

I'm not laughing, I'm saying I'll "sacrafice" the hub's and get new one's before I disassemble the axle.

I know I said I "beat like hell" on them earlier, but that was an exaggeration. I know the difference between a firm hit and a damage causing blow. Like I said, I've taken wheel's off before. They all needed some degree of "convincing" before they came off.

And I won't be hammering my life away. Were just about done with the hammer. It only take's a few second's to open the valve's and turn in the regulator's on the oxy/acetylene tank's. The cut-off tool plug's into the compressed air line quickly also.

What did the hub's and tapered shaft's look like on the rearend you just took apart? What was keeping your's together so tightly?

Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 12:20 am:

Rust, old age, an pure D-stubburn!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john joyce on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 11:38 am:

If you havn't sawn or drilled yet try this: Get 3 ft. of chain and 2 # 8 bolts and nuts an inch longer than the hub bolts. Take out 2 oppisite hub bolts,bolt ends of chain on hub with new bolts. Put a bottle jack between the chain and against the axel nut. support the jack with blocks, jack against the chain. use modest heat and P'Blaster intermediatly. Leave on all night, give jack a little pump once in a while as well as a whack with a heavy hammer.Be carefull as any thing could let go suddenly! Good luck! John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By carl on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 06:50 pm:

Just wanted to let everyone that has contibuted to this that Calr's wheel is off. We tried most of the sugestions and had not luck. I finally gave up and after removing the spokes, used a grinder and cut open the area over the keyway. With the help of a crow bar between the hub and the brake drum and tapping on a knock off puller with a 2lb hammer the hub hub finally popped off. It appears that the key was just jammed up. anyway this morning i was able to take the car out for a tour again.

Steve: You started this thread. Hope you wwere able to accomplish the goal without haveing to detroy the hub like I did.

carl.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 07:45 pm:

Antiseize compound,git some and put it on that axle so you wont have to do that again!.Not much,just a tad.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 07:57 pm:

Sorry Mack, I have to disagree with you on that one. Putting anti-seize compound on the taper will prevent the taper from locking like it is supposed to. If the taper doesn't lock, the key and keyway will have to take the load. If that happens, the key may end up jamming up everything and destroying the hub and the axle or make removal almost impossible as Carl's was.

The key is there for safety, just in case the lock on the taper fails. It is not there to drive or stop the car - the tapers lock does that.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 08:04 pm:

Well,I guess I screwed up on mine.I had the idea that the torque applied to the nut held the hub to the taper and a little antiseize would be better than all that hammering and beating.

Which reminds me,I have driven mine enough now I need to recheck the axle nuts to make sure they are tight.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 08:09 pm:

We had this discussion recently, don't you remember?

Why worry about it - just keep the nut tight. Plenty of folks claim that shims made out of soup cans work fine in there, so why should you worry?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 08:28 pm:

Well now that you mention it,we did! Duh.My memory is short.
Maby now I will remember it,twice mentioned!

I will be working on another 26 rearend project soon and Need to remember this stuff.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 08:57 pm:

Too much caffeine from all that Mountain Dew maybe? :-)

Don't sweat the small stuff. Chances are with those projects of yours that you will baby from now on, removal will never be required and nothing is going to come loose - regardless of what you used on assembly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard G.Goelz Knoxville,Tn on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 10:07 pm:

In the Tinkerin Tips a couple of years ago Ted Aschman said to put i believe pipe dope on the axle to do what Mack says.
Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 10:51 pm:

Rick,

Pipe dope sounds good to me - seals out air and moisture and it isn't a lubricant. Thanks for your post.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve on Monday, February 04, 2008 - 12:52 am:

To all,

I have'nt had any time to work on the wheel's this week. I did check to see if I had the "Safty Hub's", and I do not. So it's just the tapered fit holding really well I guess.

Next step is to get the spoke's off.

Let's hear a little more on applying anti seize to the taper's/shim's when reassembling. Some say yes, some say no. How many have put the anti seize on their hub's? I put it on my '20 Open Express axle and have seen no reason not to do it again. I would like to hear more opinion's.

Thank's guy's.

P.S.- I'm not quite sure I agree with the taper vs. the keyway argument. I feel the taper is to keep the wheel and axle at 90 degree's from each other and the key keep's the wheel from turning on the shaft. I have dealt with hub's/axle's that "wore" becuase of a loose nut/taper but they still drove the car because of the key.

Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Monday, February 04, 2008 - 01:22 am:

Steve,

The taper should do the driving, not the key. The contact stresses when the key is doing the pushing instead of the taper are huge and the steel will give in unless it is overdesigned beyond reason, which I doubt that it is.

Lubricate your tapers if you'd like. Don't go racing.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trevor Davis on Monday, February 04, 2008 - 05:13 am:

I had the same diabolical problem with the rear wheels as Steve. Tried everything that you could think of and more. Nothing worked. Acting on advice from a friend, who is a mechanic from the old school, I drilled and tapped 4 equally spaced holes to take 3/8 inch high tensile studs in the end of the hub boss and made similarly spaced holes in a piece of heavy plate. I inserted the studs through the holes in the heavy plate to engage with the tapped holes in the hub boss and screwed on nuts to the studs. I tightened the nuts evenly and with the plate pressed against the axle, the wheels came off easily. I calculated that the bolts would exert well over the 1.5 tons before breaking. To protect the thread on the end of the axle I fitted a spare axle nut reversed and made it flush with the end of the axle. To provide enough space for the 4 tapped holes I removed the hexagon flats from the axle nut so it became in effect a threaded collar. I hope this is of some help. It certainly worked for me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Monday, February 04, 2008 - 09:03 am:

The first time I found and bought a correct rear wheel removal tool, I screwed it on, just to see if the threads were correct and left it on the hub. The next day, I decided to jack up the rear and remove the wheel. That wheel would not budge a bit. An older friend told me to loosen the nut about one turn, replace the cotter pin and take a short ride, then when I was back home the wheel would slide off with no tool required. I removed the hub puller to replace the nut for this test and was surprised to find the nut was still tight on the axle. Removing the nut made the hub puller work much better and no ride ws required.


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