Why isn't anybody making...

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Why isn't anybody making...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 09:46 pm:

...parts that commonly wear out? One that leaps to mind is #3509, the pressed steel steering gear quadrant. Often it's worn smooth. I would think a lot of people would want a new one. There are brass ones for the early cars, but I haven't seen any steel ones for the later T's. I would think a lot of people would like to find a new radiator shell, a sheet metal part that's often rusted out, especially at the bottom end. As far as I know, none are being made. The spark and throttle rods are often worn flat, but you can easily make your own new ones. The pressed steel parts are another story. Why isn't anyone manufacturing those?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 09:57 pm:

How about the bushing for the steering gear cover? You can get the insides why not that part? My wheel is sooooo loose!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 10:05 pm:

When you take the pins out and bend the ears a bit on the steering quadrant, you take the worn rods out,use a wire welder and build them up and grind and smooth them back out perfectly round and reinstall.You then use a dremel to deepen the remains of the grooves and "shape" them a bit so they rub the rods.That is about all I know can be done for that.I do have a extra grooved peice hanging in the shed,I aint sure if it is really nice or just useable.I can check and let you know if you need 1.
The last radiator shell I saw listed in the synders catalog was 1 with Made in canada stamped on it and it said you may have to move your radiator neck to fit it.DUH,who wants to do that when they might could press the steel shell out right to begin with?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 10:09 pm:

Mack,I have built up the rods to a cam lobe on the bottom and then they really work good. I had to have them replated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas J. Miller on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 10:38 pm:

I'm still waiting for someone to start making 26-27 license plate brackets for the accessory drum taillights again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 11:41 pm:

It would seem there are many opporunities for new repro parts manufactures. perhaps some enterprising younger man will come forth...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Alongi on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 12:20 am:

I'd like to see a reproduction accessory stop/tailight for the 26/27, seems there's a good variety for the Model A's


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 10:44 am:

I put a NOS quadrant on my new '25 I'm building, and what a job! They don't have the two rivet holes in them, so it's a lot of work to drill two new holes that line up with the old ones in the steering tube. I also had to file it quite a bit to get it to slip over the tube. The spark and throttle rods need to be welded up and filed round again before you get them plated. When I was finished, it sure looks and feels good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 05:30 pm:

"How about the bushing for the steering gear cover? You can get the insides why not that part? My wheel is sooooo loose!"

Mine too! The rest of my box is in great shape, it's the only thing I need.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 06:57 pm:

I haven't looked at that steering gear cover bushing. Is it possible that that's a standard size not peculiar to this application? Sometimes you can find bushings to fit old cars at the local hardware store if you're lucky, even if they aren't intended for that purpose.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 07:20 pm:

As far as the steering gear cover, easy enough to get a bushing oversize OD and ID, turn the bore of the cover true (if its worn), then turn the bushing to press fit and bore it to correct OD after pressing it into the cover.

Maybe I should locate a vendor for a bushing and start offering to rebuild these for you guys??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 08:28 pm:

That would be great as not all of us have a lathe etc to make or re-make them. The covers I have seen, the bushing turns in the cover and is stuck on the shaft! What about the flange at the bottom of the bushing? Is that a washer or part of the bushing? Maybe a rebuild service would be good, sorta like for coils.
Thanks
MarkG


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 09:32 pm:

Well, I wouldn't be against doing that, but I'm not going to try and use the forum for a business venture. I'd be more than willing to repair some covers for you fellas if need be, and if you're interested you can email me and we can talk about it off the forum.

I've got a couple covers here in my hand, and it looks like a pretty straightforward thing to do. The lip is part of the bushing, or at least on the ones I have here are. Since everyone's cover is going to be different as far as condition, I'd need your cover and drive pinion...that way I could bore the new bushing to fit your pinion since I'm sure most pinions are going to exhibit some wear.

I'll see what is available from the local vendors. I know I can buy solid stock, but if I can find oil-impregnated bronze I think it would be better. If I can find exactly what material the original bushing is made from per Ford specs, that would be even better yet. Anyone know where one might find this information?
thanks
Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 10:04 pm:

Ray,

Just get one of your buddies to advertise it for you here and then you won't be breaking any rules. Others do it, so why can't you?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 10:26 pm:

Steve you can get a control rod retainer from Texas T parts #T3524-25T That will tighten the rods where you dont need the Quadrant to hold its position--works for me
Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 11:25 pm:

There are several restoration operations involving the use of equipment such as metal-working lathes. These tasks are easy if you have that equipment and the skill to use it well, but many of us don't have that equipment (or the skills). Seems to me that it would be a convenient "cottage industry" for someone wanting to get into the business on a limited basis. I wouldn't mind if someone made it known here that those services were available to us -- it would benefit us all in helping to make our T's come back to life.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 11:37 pm:

Seth
If you have a product to offer lets see it? Otherwise take your comments and buzz off.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 11:43 pm:

Well said Ron.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 12:11 am:

From the forum rules:

Rules and "Netiquette"

When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone. Flames, insults, and personal attacks will not be tolerated. It's fine to disagree strongly with opinions, ideas, and facts, but always with respect for the other person.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 12:22 am:

Ray
Yea right Ray
I am weary of Seth's nonsense.
Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 12:24 am:

Ray,there are perfectly good,legal ways to advertize your products . Simply go to the classifieds and post a "for sale " ad. No one will object and all will benifit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Art Wilson on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 12:26 am:

I made a shim from a tin can to bush my steering gear cover.
Art


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 12:41 am:

Still would like to know, does the bushing turn in the cover, or does the pinion shaft turn in the bushing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 12:52 am:

Mark, it appears the bushing is actually part of the pinion as an assembly. I get this both form the parts sold by vendors and the photo in the service manual. So, judging from that I'm gonna say the bushing rotates with the pinion. I could do it either way, but I would think the bushing should be made so that the pinion shaft rotated inside the bushing, therefore preventing wear to the cover since, as far as I can tell, is not reproduced.

Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 01:12 am:

Ron, I'm going to abstain from commenting, other than to say (with all due respect to everyone involved) I posted that so all of us would be reminded to treat one another respectfully.

For what it's worth, Seth makes a very nice mag-powered charger for hot-shot battery that I'm using. I would recommend it to anyone, just as I would recommend forum members' coil services to anyone who asked me.

okay, I said I wasn't going to comment, but I did.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 01:44 am:

Ray, thanks. I was not sure. You would have thought that it would have been the other way around!
Art: that would be a good fix for the short time.
I guess it's one of thoes parts that no one thinks about!
Looked in the 1928 copy of the parts book. Shows:
3506 Steering cover bushing
3506B Steering gear dri. pinion washer
The illist. of the drive pionion, part NO 3519B (5-1) shows it with the bushing installed. Looked in langs catalog, list the whole setup with oversize and need to machine case to install. In O6 it was about $60 for the kit.
I guess I could try finding a bushing a little bit biger OD and as needed ID. (I just remembered, Dad has a small Atlas lathe and the case might just fit the chuck)bore for press fit and locktite it in place. Then ream the ID for a running fit (or in this case, turning). You are right about the case.
MarkG


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 02:07 am:

In any assembly where two parts move together, there will be wear. The accepted practice is that the least expensive component be constructed of the softer metal. In the T era, the stamped steel cover (rather than the machined pinion shaft) would have been the least expensive part to replace. Since the cover isn't reproduced, the wear duty should be transferred to some other component. Since $60 will get a new pinion and gears, and a bushing can be added to the cover for far less than that, it's a no-brainer where that wear should be transferred to. A brass bushing would take most of the wear that the cover originally took, and it should take a lifetime or longer to wear out a forged steel pinion shaft against many brass bushings.

Mark, Dennis, & anyone else interested, here's what I'll do. I have these caps soaking in degreaser tonight. I'll bead-blast and rebuild the best one, taking pictures to post in a new thread to show what I'm doing. I'll have to make a fixture to thread the cover on to. That way I can easily hold the cover in the lathe without using a chuck that could possibly damage it, especially if someone has a plated one. It will also save a lot of time not having to indicate it. What I have in mind will allow me to simply screw it on and true up the bore, then press in a brass bushing. I can then remove the sleeve from the pinion and bore the bushing to fit the pinion. I'm going to say the bushing should have a spiral-cut groove in the brass to allow a small amount of grease to move around too.

IF you like it and want it, we can talk about it off the forum. I don't wish to break any forum rules, and I don't want anyone thinking Ironhunter Rod & Custom has re-opened it's doors because that ain't happening. I see no harm though in helping out fellow T owners that need something fixed.

If nobody is interested, I'll have myself a rebuilt cover to use and there will be pictures on the forum showing how to fix your loose steering wheel!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 07:32 am:

Here's one Ron - the only one I've "sold". It is a voltage-regulated charger for a full-sized battery. It belongs to Ed Levy and Fred Houston is installing it for him. It cost Ed $15 including shipping and he sent me $20, so I still owe him a beer or two.

Coils are happy on AC - just the way you like it!

Picture here, not showing the in-line fuse, but no link to a website with ordering instructions.........


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 08:31 am:

Ray, there was a time in my life when I would have been able to duplicate this bushing my self but I don't have access to the "machine shop" necessary to do it now and I'm doing my level best NOT to turn my 87 year old mother's pristene garage into a Model T assemply plant.
Keep me posted, I understand that it's not cost effective to create just one bushing but I'd be willing to bet there would be a market out here for more than just one.
My bushing is now shaped like a crescent moon with about 1/3 of it completely gone. The rest of the box and the cover appear to be fine but I'll to scrounge up an inside mic. to know for sure.
Dennis
oldfart101@comcast.net


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 09:04 am:

Ron,

Here is another. This time, an unregulated full-current charger for refillable full-sized batteries. I built three of these for hobbyist friends and charged nothing for them. Some of us in this hobby are generous and like to help out our friends instead of lining our pockets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 12:16 pm:

Sometimes free is to expensive.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 12:43 pm:

Paul, are you about tired of this BS? I am.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 12:44 pm:

"Some of us in this hobby are generous and like to help out our friends instead of lining our pockets"
I can't stop laughing.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Scherzer on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 01:16 pm:

Making Model T reproductions parts is more complex then one might think. I have been at it for over 20 years but not in a big way but producing items sold through vendors and direct. If it weren't for my other casting and machining jobs it would be hard to show a profit at the end of the year doing just T parts.

The problem is there are just enough used and NOS parts still out there to limit the cost of reproducing a part that will sell. If an item merits reproduction in quantity it's shipped off shore to be produced at lower prices. As many of us that have reproduced parts, it was for the good of the hobby. A case in point is the amp meter John Regan has just come out with. I don't know his material costs but I do know purchasing the Simpson 0-2 AC amp meters for my coil testers was over $75 each when all was said and done. So I just hope he can sell hundreds since $50. sounds like he has a small profit margin on each meter being sold and which means it will require several sales to get something back for his efforts. Now add to this all the leg work, phone calls, the OK from Ford and people needed to help bring an item like this into being I have to take my hat off for his effort.

Personally I have stopped doing anymore new T projects since I have been unable to produce parts in quantity at a reasonable price and still make any kind of a profit in doing so. If I added up the hours spent working a project up to a finished item the hours spent usually returned less then minimum wage for my efforts. In the past I used slow days to do T parts but these times aren't there anymore with more and better return types of jobs coming in.

This is basically because of the types work I do in which one or two unique pieces of the same item are all that is needed and the customer knows what is involved and is welling to pay for the actual time required to get it completed.

Seth, I apologize for any pictures posted by myself or others of items I have reproduced that may have been misconstrued as advertising and I believe at no time any prices were ever stated. I have only done these items as John's business name implies as "Fun Projects" not as profit projects. Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 02:07 pm:

Bob,

I do not think you owe an apology to anyone. Last time I checked Bruce is the person running this forum. Do not stop posting because of some self appointed critic. I must have missed the posts about your products and would be glad if you posted them again. I might need something you make. That is what this forum is all about. I have bought many products from many people that I would not have known about if they were not posted here.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 02:27 pm:

Bob,

No apology needed at all. You have posted pictures of your reproductions and your restorations and you have never ever mentioned money - not that I've read anyway.

I had hoped that you would have finished the heater project, but if you can't see any potential profit for your efforts I can certainly understand why you would decide to put it on the shelf. Top shelf that is, the only way you do things (that I've seen here).

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 02:47 pm:

Apt analogy, and good writing, Stan, but I didn't originate that about yours vs. mine, which I've tried to acknowledge every time I've used it. Self promotion on this Forum is small potatoes.

Last time I saw figures, ads make up about 30-40% of the content of the VF and TTimes. Ad revenue, however, is only about 20% of the cost of producing the magazines. With that percentage of ads, ad revenue should pay 100% of magazine cost. It can get to the point where the articles are just there to separate the ads.

In other words, ads by insurance companies, companies owned by BOD members, et al, are subsidized by member dues. That's ok by some people, but to me it's unfair to pay some of the advertising costs for items or services I don't use, and may not approve of.

HCCA Gazette, OTOH, puts prices for advertising right in the magazine for all to see, and only about 10% of the magazine is ads, leaving 90% for articles.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis E. Towle on Monday, February 04, 2008 - 09:13 pm:

WELL Ė I have been making parts for antique gas pumps and re-selling them for about 2 years now. I make more money working at my home shop making these parts then I do running my vending business. It just makes sense for me to get deeper into this type of work.

I have been looking for companies that will re-sand cast older Hempy Cooper tools for me here in the USA at a reasonable cost. Seems some of these guys want to charge me 2k for one gray iron casting job. I know for a fact it can be done cheaper then 2k for a little tool because the antique gas pump parts suppliers are selling gray iron cast parts for 10-80 bucks and they are only getting 5 made at a time and they are being made somewhere in the USA. They donít want me to compete with them so they will not tell me where it is being done!!!

SO:

If anyone knows of a company or home-shop type operation that can re-sand cast GRAY IRON please let me know.

Travis E. Towle
Topeka, Kansas

785-554-8238 cell


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Scherzer on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 11:53 pm:

Travis, the high cost of getting an item cast in iron may be due to that fact they have to make up a pattern first. Many foundries can't or won't do loose pattern lay ups and require a match plate which is used in conjunction with their molding machines. I just got a job the other day to cast some parts for a guy that had been to another foundry that quoted him $1300 for the match plate that would be needed to just cast 5 pieces he wanted in brass. However, if he had gotten the match plate done he would have been able to have gone back and gotten more done for just the cost of the casting phase of the operation if he needed more in the future which was not the case.

If you were thinking of doing the Hempy Cooper line boring tool I think you could do it cheaper by fabricating it rather than casting. To try and cast using an original tool as the pattern will result in the copy being smaller due to shrinkage that occurs during casting. A foundry would have to construct a pattern to compensate for this shrinkage and then they would make a match plate so you would end up with the correct size as the original and this may have been the reason for the high quote. The guys getting the 5 or so cast at a time probably have their match plates bought and paid for and are just being charged the cost of the casting phase. Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 01:33 am:

Travis - Contact me off-line if you don't get my message.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis E. Towle on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 09:28 pm:

Thanks for the input guys.

I was thinking about having a professional casting mold made for the hempy cooper line bore unit because I feel it would be the
best tool on the market and if I had it made 100% correct and original in
style - I think it would sell well.


Travis E. Towle
Topeka, Kansas

785-554-8238


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