Good morning all.
I have a question that has been bothering me for sometime and would like some opinions on it. We are a closeknit society of friends who enjoy the same interest. Model T's with the purpose here of furthering our hobby and helping those who would like to get started in it. We have several talented members who go one step further and go to alot of trouble to make hard to find parts for their fellow Model T'rs. There are others who find parts and compile them into an inventory that they hope to sell in order to supplement their incomes. This is called Capitalism and is the hallmark of our economic system.
Since I have been participating on the Forum, whenever one of these talented, helpful individuals comes onto the Forum to say "I have what you are looking for and will be glad to sell it to you", he has been chastized for shamelessly promoting himself or trying to make money on the Forum at our expense. Just in my most recent posting, Hap was accused of doing something that may be interpreted by "some members" as "pimping for friends" when all he was doing was trying to help out by recommending where a certain bit of information could be found. Hap apologized and explained himself but, in my opinion, did not need to. He was simply trying to be helpful and was.
At what point did it become taboo for those who have the gift to do so, to try and supplement their incomes from the hobby they love so much, while at the same time, helping those who need the specialized parts they make or provide. Is it jealousy by those who don't have the talent, ability or initiative to do what these individuals are capable of? I don't mean to offend or insult anyone who disagrees with me on this and apologize if I did so by that last comment, but I really, sincerely do not understand this intolerance. In many cases, some of these individuals are retired and their brain, their talent and their time is all they have to make ends meet and what better way to utilize their talents, than in a hobby where all of us can benefit. Instead of creating the notion that it is prohibited for them to inform us of their wares, we should be glad they are out there trying to find ways to make our hobby more enbjoyable by producing or providing parts that no one else provides. I may need what they have, but because it is currently frowned upon to do so, they are keeping quiet so as not to violate some outmoded rule and raise the ire of a few members who, for whatever reason, are offended by them and have foisted this rule on us.
Let's give some thought and consideration to this matter and not make it such a crime for members who reproduce needed, hard to find parts to come on the Forum to let us know that they have those parts without fear of being shunned, otherwise, how will we know who they are and what they provide. Please don't suggest they post in the classified ads, as I, like many here, only visit the Forum, so if I will ever see it, it will need to be mentioned in the Forum. We should be grateful to authors such as Bruce for his outstanding book, or Bob for his machining ability or Ron for his expertise in coils, or anyone else, who has gone to the trouble to design and machine a part for us and we should encourage this kind of initiative by helping them out and patronizing them, instead of intolerantly chastising them for trying to let us know that they have something that may be of help to us. Lets rid ourselves of this arcane rule and help these folks help us. Just my thoughts on the matter.
Thank you for your consideration
Thank you for putting these thoughts in words.
I have delt with several folkes on this forumn,and alot of folkes have helped me out with parts that I would not have had access to as easly ,if at all.And I have no complaints at all about anyone who I have delt with.Only good things to say.
I wish I could say that for the yahoo I bought a crank pulley from that was supposed to be NOS on Ebay last week.Yea right,our buddy Ray Charles could feel the califlowered holes and it falls on the crankshaft.
I recently joined the ranks of the members of the Mtfca and will be able to use the classifieds and such without offending anyone.
But still yet,i dont go there often.
I feel like if there are folkes here that dissagree,they need to call a truce and not worry themselves over it.Life is short,lets help each other and further the hobby.
I didn't want to comment, but I will. I have been helped out too by those on the forum who have offered parts to me after I stated I needed something. That is a benefit of the forumn and I deeply appreciate the parts I've been sold and the information that's been given. I see nothing wrong with offering to sell something to a fellow member. At the far end of the spectrum though, I've also seen threads that were "set up" to do nothing more than promote a product. Not that it bothers me personally (honestly, I could care less), but if there are rules they should apply to all. Don't insult our intelligence by starting a thread "innocently", just call a spade a spade and call an obvious advertisement an advertisement. I don't have a clue what the rules are because I can't find them, but the apparent fear of posting a helpful part offering leads me to believe that at some time someone has been severely scolded for doing so.
In the words of Jack Nicholson..."Why can't we all just get along?"
I would agree the the forum rules are "arcane" as you say, but they are rules and they are often broken, especially by those that know they can and will get away with it.
I have zero problem with anyone posting pictures of their works of art, whether they intend to sell them or not. I think it is quite another story when a link is published with prices and ordering instructions.
If someone wants something that someone has created, what's wrong with them e-mailing or private messaging them? Is this asking too much of anyone with enough sense to operate a computer?
That's my opinion and I'm sure that it will offend plenty that read it. Don't think that I care that it will.
I was just looking for opinions in order to try and understand the reasons for the intolerance and outright hostility to the many who are out to provide a service or a product and should be rewarded for their time, initiative and effort, instead of being ostrasized and penalized. That sort of mentality, censorship and intolerance inhibits creativity. Also, I am referring to our longtime members that we have associated with for many years who know our needs through their many years of experience in the hobby.
For those who feel that some of our talented members who want to provide a service or a product are trying to take advantage of us for their own personal gain. Let me remind them that we are all adults here and can choose to read it or move on. It only takes a second to read a posting and make a decision to have a look or to move on. I for one would, at least, like to have that option, as opposed to some unspoken rule being instigated, removing that option, for reasons unknown to me. Reminds me of a comic I once read. regarding salesman trying to demonstrate a machine gun to Custer as he was being surrounded by Indians. Custer, with an arrow in his hat, arrogantly says: "Come back later. Can't you see I'm busy?". Unless we, at least, allow these folks a chance, we will never know what may have been available to us.
Thanks for your input.
Good morning to you as well, though it's getting mighty close to lunchtime for you.
I guess I need to be more specific.
MOST of those folks that read this forum know exactly who John Regan is and the name of his business. Most all of them also know that John doesn't skimp on quality one bit and that every time he produces or reproduces anything for this hobby that it is top-shelf and good value. If you read the thread about the '19-'25 ammeter, you'll see that I complimented him on the job that he did.
BUT, almost every time he has something ready to sell, he has Ron Patterson post pictures and links that will take the reader right to the order form. If that isn't "pimping for a friend", what is?
Change the forum rules so that selling is OK here and the classified ads can be eliminated. No more worrying about getting a password if you aren't a member of the MTFCA.
Seth, let's see a copy of those "Rules" you are so adamant about. I've never seen them and I've been on here since Gus was trying to figure out how to make this thing all work. I got my computer in 1999 and I believe the first forum site I visited was the MTFCA site because Tony Cerovski (you wouldn't know him, he got sick of all the pi........ and moaning on here and quit posting years ago) showed me how to access it. If there are "Rules" I would like to know who wrote them and what authority they had to do so. Step up.
To paraphrase Ralph's analysis: "Your postings about new products from your company are nothing but advertisements by a slimeball trying to get business from poor, unsuspecting geezers who can be easily taken in." "Howvever, my postings about new products are valuable announcements designed to alert consumers to the availability of a wonderful new product specifically designed to enhance the experience of the wonderful elderly gentlemen who are preserving America's automotive past and which will be sold at the lowest possible profit strictly as a charity plus a small margin for me."
Like most things, it makes a lot of difference which shoe is on which foot.
It also makes a difference in my mind when the product comes from a company or individual who has the knowledge, experience and expertise to have credibility in the consumer community and what the product is that they are announcing. If they are using the MTFCA bandwidth to announce a long needed product, such as an ammeter that actually works, is well made and available at a price that could not possibly have much profit in it, produced by a company with a long standing reputation for excellent products and exemplary service; I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. I would much rather see our bandwidth taken up with that than juvenile smutty jokes that have been recycled for the millionth time. If however, they are advertsing--or announcing--some product that is untested, unnecessary and provided by some unknown company then I think their use of this site should be questioned.
Over the years, one of the things that I have championed is an objective testing committee that would evaluate products and report those evaluations to the community via this site and the Vintage Ford. There has never been support for this but I still think it is a good idea.
I would also question where you want to draw the line if you want a line drawn on product information posted on this forum. Is the recommendation to use Valspar paint the same as an announcement of a new ammeter? Is the discussion of Stipe camshafts compared to Carnegie Brothers camshafts to be banned? If some newby posts a question about who can fix his coils is the person who suggests one source for that service to be required also list the other five or six who provide that service so all get an equal chance for the business? Who is to determine at what point the "offending" post be pulled by the administrator? I assume that there would be an immediate volunteer who would be willing to sit in self-righteous judgement as there seems to be no lack of that on here.
From my standpoint, I am a big boy and I can take care of myself. I learned to read when I was four years old and it has served me pretty well over the years. I have been in business for nearly 50 years and have learned to "sort 'em at the door." I've had a Model T since 1954 and spent 25 years right down the street from Lewis Rector -- who could sort people even before they got to the door. I don't need the forum although I read it most days and when I do I don't need anybody telling me what to read and what not to read. The BS'ers sort themselves up pretty quickly, the people who actually know what they are talking about get read and believed and the others I don't even read. I used to try to post some things that might help some people who don't have 50 years of working on these things and don't have the shop I have but I have pretty well quit doing that. No matter what, there always has to be somebody jump in the middle of the thread and go off on politics or telling somebody how they know more about it that the poster does. For example, see the pictures I posted a couple months ago showing some of my accessory carburetor collection and the political rant that followed. No more pictures from me even tho I have a bunch more that I never posted.
There are hundreds of people who have come and gone on this forum, mostly because they got tired of some self appointed expert who jumped in on every thread and challenged anything they had to say. The people who left, for the most part, were the people with the most experience and knowledge. Not all, but many.
I think we should be glad this thing works as well as it does, I think we should be glad that there are people who are willing to answer the same questions over and over for another newby -- or an oldie who wasn't paying attention -- and I think all anybody has to do is spend two days looking at the forum and if they have a brain in their head they can sort who actually has something to say worth reading and whose posts are just to see their name in print the most times in one day.
I'm rebuilding a Ruckstell today. When it is done, I think I will post on here that I have another one done, that it is all powder coated, that it has new axles, that it has a new FUN PROJECTS roller bearing in it, that it has a new driveshaft, that it was rebuilt by somebody who has rebuilt 28 of them so far and has 6 more to go this winter and that I also have another Stromberg OF ready to go on ebay to follow up the four I have already sold this winter and see who wants to tell me the "rules" won't let me do that.
I am going to work in the shop. I'm going to do something POSITIVE for the hobby. I'm going to provide another two speed differential for a guy who needs or wants one and doesn't have the expertise or the shop and tooling to rebuild one himself. I've got a couple hours to go on the Ruckstell and part of that is going to be spent taking pictures of some modifications I make that I believe make them work better and last longer. When I get the DVD done of how I make those changes and how I rebuild Ruckstells I will post it on here so you can buy a copy from me. This afternoon I am going to clean up some of the dozen Holley NH carburetors I found in a box under a bench yesterday and get some of them back in the hands of people who can use them via selling them on ebay.
I personally believe my time is better spent doing that kind of work than bitching about "rules."
The posts that preceed my remarks indicate to me that our hobby is healthy, diverse, & includes folks from all walks of life. In my 20 years of "T" ownership I have NOT ONCE I REPEAT NOT ONCE purchased anything from the well knowen vendors or the specialized providers without a clear understanding of the terms of the purchase & return/refund policies. On more than one occasion one of the major providers suggested holding up on a particular item as they were having problems with its reliability. I see that as a mark of integrity !!!. My guess is that most of the vendors were hobbyists first before they took the leap forward & the associated risks involved in the retail market place.
I wonder where I would have been able to purchase the variety of things I have bought had it not been for the vendors who took the risk(s) associated with entering the market place.
Perhaps we can cool off & return to the joys of this hobby which include, but are not limited to the interactions amongst us, the sounds & smells of the old cars running & the looks on the pubics faces(particularly the kids) when they see a Model T comming down the road.
Edward R. Levy
Owner of 1916 Brass era Touring car currently undergoing mechanical re-build in anticipaction of the 100th year celebration.(can you just visualize all that leaking oil on all of those Hotel/Motel parking lots)
The other forum I frequent is at allischalmers.com because I have a couple of those tractors. Several of the forum regulars there happen to be full time dealers in parts and products, others are just collectors who buy and sell occasionally, and others never post wanted or for sale at all. Whatever their status in that regard, they generally get along very well. I think one thing that keeps the peace is that when you post a message on that forum you click to designate General, Question, For Sale, or Wanted. Posts in the last three categories appear preceded by ?, $, or W. This allows people not interested to bypass those posts. Also, by custom people begin their subject line with OT if they have an Off Topic comment on something other than tractors. Again, those not interested can pass on by. Perhaps those features would help here. I for one have no problem whatever with people offering their goods and services, especially in light of the fact that people who have goods and service to offer frequently have a lot more expertise than I have. Many times they can and do provide helpful advice or information without trying to make a sales pitch of it. I think most people are smart enough to figure out who's being real and who's just trying to advertise. Come to think of it, I don't recall seeing any of the latter on this forum. The posts I've seen here from dealers have seemed to me to be sincere comments meant to help. As they say in Congress, I wish to associate myself with the remarks of the gentleman from Florida.
If a guy asks a question and the answer is "Hey I sell those, here's my contact information and a link to my web site" then that to me is what the Model T Forum is supposed to do. Connect people who want something with the place that object is available. No problem.
If on the other hand a vendor turns this informational section of the web site into a defacto classified ad section then there is a problem. So far those type of problems have been few and far between.
It seems like a non issue.
...and the gentleman from Montana is no slouch.
i hope this site does not fall due to the little girlism that seems to be creeping in here...
lets face it most of us "new commers" come here for advice and yes parts! how many times do we need to see some body elses model t picture any way? dont you all realise that each model t owner has the "only model t on the road" anyway!
frankly i come here to find information and hard to find parts. i dont care who has them or how much they are if i need it i need it and just like the pimps who sell us the oil we need, we buy it from them.. we need we buy it is the American way! i hope guys keep helping by posting that they have something i and others need. why does it always come down to worring about what someone else is doing or how much they are making ? why the cry babying? why cant we have a free and open forum and just enjoy each others stories and help each other out with parts and advice with no regulations? or have we become a reegulatory, comunistic,warden like society even with our hobbys that are supposed to sooth and relax us?
Here is my $.02. Let me first say that I am on the younger end of the spectrum here, as I'm 28 and own a '15 Touring.
I visit many forums, from Car Audio Forums ( I did stereo installation for 7 yrs after I left high school), Scion ( I own an xB), Miata (I recently sold my beloved Miata, but still follow the forum) and I even stay up to date on the Lowrider forums ( I drove an old Cadillac with Hydraulics in High School)
These forums, in contrast to the MTFCA & ModelT forum, are different in that they are often targeted with spam advertising that is so blatantly advertising for the sake of advertising that there is no question what it is. Many times you see ads for cheap, knock offs or items with promised claims of increased audio fidelity or hp.
The T forums though are a completely different animal, and IMHO, cannot be held to the same standards as other forums. We are a small group of enthusiasts with a hobby that if it weren't for the handful of individuals that produce quality products to keep our toys going, we'd have other things to worry about, like hunting down those parts through swap meets or contracting to have them made.
I don't know about you, but I don't have the time or money to do either and would rather buy from a person offering parts for sale on here so I can enjoy driving my T.
Point is, we all have a common goal here, that is to enjoy our T's and share that joy with others. As a person who has had the joy of owning a T passed down through my family (my T was restored by my Great Grandfather & passed to me in 2001 when my Grandfather passed away) we should be happy that someone is even taking the time to produce these parts to keep us on the road instead of wasting our breath worrying weather or not it falls within proper forum guidelines for adverting.
I think this forum is working just fine, and needs little if no adjustment.
I also think the new ampmeters look outstanding and have devalued my horde of good originals--RATS!
Now onto the S-trains site to take another look at the new Big Boy steam engine in S--to us S guys it's sorta like if Ford annunced new T blocks .
Seth,Man ,I cant quite get a good visual of Ron in a Burgandy Sedan deville with fuzy dice,and 23's croozin' around saying "Man,I gots some ladies over hea that can makes yu smile! Cheap!Cavity empty Tar" :>)Sorry i aint good with them farrin words.Ron says something like that when he is means beware or something.
I think sometimes it is all in how someone interputs something.I personaly as a matter of my opionion,for the .9 cent it could bring in a charity auction,feel like endorseing a product as being good isnt the same as advertiseing.
If I need something,and someone I have grown to trust here on the forumn has endorsed it,I would be alot more apt to look into buying it than I would if Anom or , came along and said "here is product A Buy now for 19.95 it's good" and left it at that.
Seth,I consider you and Ron and everyone else here a friend and I honestly cant stand to sit here and read about folkes disaggreeing.I hope this levels out,and folkes continue to make products to help us keep our rides in good running order.
Ray,I want to see the results of your steering part repair as well.
Now back to my regularly scheduled program.Of cleaning a T engine block.
The closest thing I am getting to the Super bowel is 1 that flushes.
I think this Forum is far better than most, and I've been on many others. It's composed of many people of great ingegrity and knowlege, and I thank my lucky stars that they're willing to share their information with the rest of us. It's people like Bruce, Hap, Stan, John, Russ, RV, and Les to name a few that make this hobby what it is. I'm involved with several other hobbies, and in those hobbies, the enthusiasts don't even approach the high level of passion, knowledge,and willingness to share that the Model T guys do. Thank goodness there are products for sale to help further the hobby and keep cars on the road! Who CARES if a parts source is mentioned or referred to. We are all adults. As a Californian, I can tell you this: Political Correctness is killing this country. Let's not worry about splitting hairs. Let's get back to ordering parts from whom we choose, and working on and driving our T's!!!
Gotta stick my 2 cents worth in here.
This from all appearances is a public forum.
Last I checked, each and every one of us has the constitutional right to freedom of speech in any public forum. If any of you would like to challenge that I am willing to fight for that right.
No one forces any of us to read anything on here. Can't remember when I felt a gun to my head in any case. It is very easy to skip anything you dont want to read.
We all need the help of the others in this hobby to keep these things rolling.
I challenge most if not all of the people on here to be able to honestly say they keep there cars running with no repro parts and with no one elses help.
Bottom line is if you dont like it leave. We will find you on the side of the road somewhere with a car that won't go anymore because you can't find help or parts.
Dont spoil things for the rest of us that want to keep driving these great machines.
I for one value ALL of the information I find on here including when someone has somethings they want to sell or advertise that might help me out.
I have been checking this forum daily since the other forum started drying up. They have some friction there too.
I check the forums hoping I will read about some new item that is interesting or that I may want.
I wonder when I will read about the new aluminum oilpan again that was being made that uses a sliding gear transmission, or maybe more about the 3 speed T transmission some guy made and was going to produce that only changes some internal parts of the T trans. Or to see if there is now a new wonderfull brake kit that fits the T without too much change and works like a charm both backwards and forwards without hydraulic lines, maybe even for the front!
Untill today I had no idea there would ever be a CD I will soon be able to buy that shows some mods to improve the Rckstell. I need that kind of info for my job and for myself.
I am now planning a different dash panel on my being-built speedster so I can use the new amp meter that I read about on this forum.
So many have recommended the simple voltage regulator by Fun Projects that I know it's gotta be good.
I have been a proffesional mechanic for 55 years and I don't get much out of how to shim rods or how to adjust outside brakes or check the air in the tires or how to drive a T but I still gotta read it all.
Because I never knew how to get broken studs out of the block I just drilled out 20 last month on a '37 Ford engine and Heli-Coiled them and they are a mess. Some are not as straight as they should be. Today I learned how from a model T forum.
It's just too bad I have to read so much crap to get to the usefull or interesting stuff.
If this post makes you mad I have made my point.
Just my two cents, As a owner of a restoration shop full time since 1991, and as a hobbiest since age 6, I would like to add the following. Most people envolved with the car hobby are not in the car restoration business, but hobby people who own old cars...they are either retired or, have a full time job doing something else. In my case I earn my living from working on antique cars, I charge a fair amount for my time and shop, most hobby people won't pay my rates and that's fine with me...they are either too cheap, or figure it's a 1915 car and I should charge 1915 prices. As far as the Amp meter advertising, I'm glad it's been announced, I ordered 2 yesterday for customers. I have purchased 2 old units on E-bay for considerably more money and found them to be junk. As far as it goes, there are damn few quality things built in this country, what with the lawyers and big company politics squeezing out the craftsmens and artisians, I'am glad to see someone like Mr.Regan,(who I've never met) and Mr. Patterson,(who I've talked to and worked with but never met). I think some people should think before they post.....thank you for your time, Hugh
Hey Stan! Thanks for not bailing... I hope to meet you sometime on a tour. I always read your posts.
Stan Howe and lots of others,
Your positive thoughts were expressed very well.
We are lucky to have a quality forum.
There was once a fellow named Ried. He had lots of personal viewpoints. Many very good. He drove his T in Miami during business hours. He took moonlight drives into the Everglades. He was a doer. He had confidence in his workmanship and his T. Yes, he was outspoken and criticised by some.
He apparently had a wreck in that T and gave us a farewell.
Some were glad, some were sad. We all lost something by his departure.
He made us think.
By accident I found him on another forum. He was completely accepted by that group.
We don't need to lose anyone. We need everyone.
PUT A LID on the grousing!
Regards to all,
Welsh Reid. Yes, I miss his colorful additions. I wonder if he still has those drums of Gilsonite paint? I was gone for a few years on other projects and when I came back all the old posts were gone. Couldn't remember my password either so re-upped.
Why am I up so late? The medicine I took has me bouncing off the walls! I thought I was on my death bed last week. I'm afraid to mix it with Nyquil. Why am I rambling? Geez, what great chemicals they have these days. Night all.
Eloquent oratory close to super Tuesday however I have .02 worth on this one. I do not know what the rules say, and I understand the "Forum" is not the place for a bidding floor of parts, however if helpful members on this forum did not say I have the part and will sell it to you (rest of transaction via private e-mail) or I know someone (rest of transaction private e-mail) I would be upthe preverbial creek because isn't soul within 100plus miles that knows what a T looks like much less any help/parts.
Well I learned a valueable lesson this morning.Folkes on ebay that sell parts,also read this forumn.:>)
And the man that sold me the pulley,said he garrentees satisfaction and is willing to work with me on it.I was just going to absorb it and go on with life.
I told him I had bought alot of good parts from him and I could do some welding on this pulley and make it work,I dont have another to use.
So it is obvious to me now that folkes that are dealers for these parts on ebay,also operate as the folkes on the forumn.Uh,they are actually some of the same people.
So lesson learned,Mention the problem to the seller first,and be carefull where you call somebody Yahoo.They might just be reading it.
I also hope the fellow forgives me!Due to the fact he backs his parts,I will continue to look over his stuff and buy as needed.
I have given many parts away including a good crankshaft. Have I been breaking the rules?
I think so. At least by mentioning it. I think the unwritten rule is that when we overhaul an engine for somebody or give them a complete car to start rebuilding or spend a couple days re-pouring, line boring and overhauling an engine for a guy trying to drive cross country in a T and don't charge them for it -- the kinds of things most of us do and never mention -- we aren't supposed to mention it publicly. I think it is something called humility. Possibly modesty. More research may be needed as it seems to not be as common as it once was. =) Even the Lone Ranger only left a Silver Bullet to let them know who the good guy was, he didn't put ads in the paper.
In put from a newbie here. I have been to lots of forums in the past for various hobbies. Most have a no spam, or no advertising rule.
I think the "spirit" of that rule in general is to stop the participants of a forum from being subjected to a constant reminder that here "endowment" needs enhanced, or straightened.
In my humble opinion, this is a model T site, for model T users. There is nothing wrong about offering parts and or services for model T's.
If you have no need for parts or services, then just don't read the post. It is just that simple. If you are looking for parts or services, then those posts are of great value to you, and just makes this forum that much more interesting and helpful.
There, my two cents!
I have to agree with Royce. (way up the thread) This is not the classified section of the site. If somebody is making posts offering items for sale, or repair work and services, those "ads" don't belong here. THAT'S APPLES!
However, if somebody comes up with something new, or develops a repair procedure, I think that this is the perfect place to inform the rest of us who might not know about it any other way. If somebody asks where to get something, or who does something, I see no problem with answering; I have one to sell, or I do that kind of work, contact me. THAT'S ORANGES
Even if the person saying; I sell those is in the business of selling them, if it might help the person with the problem, I think it is OK. These guys don't have to look at the forum when they get home. They don't have to offer their free advice, and share their knowledge and experience with us, but they do. And sometimes, their product or service is the solution to the problem.
Without them, we might all be double-sparking in the dark!
Personally I think this is a good place to leave a "silver bullet" to help us fix, maintain, and drive our cars. I always appreciate knowing someone has developed a new gizmo or technique.
Hello Folks I read this forum daily, some of these thoughts have me thinking. On Oct.27th something failed in the drive train of my '26 Fordor while on the Natchez Trace Tour. We went backwards down a long hill and eventually rolled over on the passengers side. Ginny and I were both injured, but are coming along fine. My concern is THIS. The incident was posted on this and other forums, not by me, but by others. And I had no quarrel with this. A lot people were very concerned about what failed. I made some promises to post pictures, give the best analogy of failed components that myself and whoever is in attendance can best describe. This is going to take place this coming Sunday Feb. 10 at Rick Longhauser's Garage at 10:00am. Any one in the area is welcome to attend. My question and concerns are; will it be wrong to post pictures of failed parts, non professional opinions as to why we believe something failed? If it is found that original parts failed or if it was after market, currently available parts, that failed will this violate these phantom rules? Will I be scorned by suppliers who make and/or sell these parts,if we find they actually caused this failure. If this was someone else with a similar problem,I would welcome any info that I could use to make my cars safer and I'm sure those concerns were well intended by all who responded as it was being described here Oct. 28th. It gets down to this; should I make pictures and descriptions of what we find public? BUD
Yes, Bud, please make public what you find. It will be a service to all.
A lawyer may advise you not to publish anything if you contemplate suing negligent parties. If turns out to be an obviously defective reproduction part, you can expect its manufacturer to deny responsibility, as required by his liability insurance carrier, if he has one.
If a webmaster were to prohibit or delete posting of findings on a Forum such as this, he could be putting himself and the organization in the chain of liability in the case of a future accident. It could be construed as a conspiracy.
Just my perception...
I've followed your story with more than a little interest. I'm a new owner of a '26 Fordor, and I've been going through it this winter, checking the condition of the running gear in preparation for touring this summer. In the process, I found a shot Hyatt bearing, outer left axle. I have received three distinctly different recommendations for a fix from people with decades of Model T experience. Two of the recommendations involve modifying the axle housing. So yes, if you can (considering the legal issues just mentioned above), please do post the details of what happened.
And regarding commercialism in the forum, I'd feel Jeff Hood said it best. There's a difference between a new product announcement and commercial advertising although yeah, they overlap. I for one, appreciate hearing about a new solution, regardless of whether someone makes a buck off of it or not.
I hope you will publish the results of your findings. It would be valuable information to other T owners. What you put in this forum doesn't necessarily have to be specific with regard to a vendor or manufacturer. For example the ring gear failed tells me what I need to know but doesn't refer to a vendor/manufacturer. If if something very specific that failed especially an item that modifies the car from stock then you will have to consider if there is a legal/liability issue and publishing it on a public format might be a bad idea.
For several days I've been trying to stay out of this and let more experienced heads express their thoughts. Bud's question prompts me to get the fingers onto the keyboard.
By all means, please post....
Bud, please post your findings...
Inventors, creators, constructionists, please post your "improvements"
Without knowledge sharing, we would all be spending countless hours trying to "re-invent the wheel". If someone has come up with an improved "thing-a-ma-bob", in my opinion, the device should be profiled on this Forum. No, don't get involved with a lot of ad "copy", just tell us what it is, and where to go to find out more. If we're interested, we'll pursue the lead. If not interested, we don't have to read any more.
Bud's question prompts this post because of my background. I spent many pleasurable years "working" as a commercial pilot for a now non-existent, formerly around-the-world-airline. In the aviation world, whenever an accident or incident occurs, it is thoroughly investigated by several different teams of highly trained individuals. In due time, the cause of the failure - human or mechanical or systems or “whatever” is discovered and WIDELY disseminated throughout the aviation community. Because of this “sharing of knowledge”, many improvements have been made to aircraft, some procedure have been made – and the process continues to this day. The end result of this sharing is that aviation is an extremely safe mode of travel!
Henry and his experienced assistants shared their knowledge of part failures and other incidents – and made improvements to the four wheeled vehicle....from the original Model A, through the alphabet to the T, etc.
We learn from experience....to all who have experienced a noteworthy event, IMHO, the circumstances should be shared. Our community will benefit from this knowledge. Thanks for the opportunity to express my views. Dave
I, too have been mulling this over for several days now and I have to put my two cents in as well. I will keep it short.
What next - Is "word-of-mouth" going to be considered "pimping". That's how we used to find out about a lot of T stuff. It was pretty hit and miss. I view this forum as a vastly better way to spread information about the Model T at all levels (technical, factual, and new products). And don't forget, we also spread the word here about bad and poor quality products as well.
I vote is keep doing what we are doing. I have full faith and trust in the forum monitors that things will not get out of hand.
You can be assured that when I invent the "Miracle Model T Widget" you will hear it here first.
Bud, since I have been at least to some extent involved in the ring and pinion contorvery with the shattering of a new pinion gear about a year ago, I'd sure like to know what you find. I returned all of the sets I had that were of the newer manufacturer and found several old sets that were still marked USA. I'm assuming they are all right and have had no complaints of them so far but I only have two of those sets in service.
It is probably worthy of note, too, that most of the complaining I have seen on here about someone advertising their products on the forum is more related to a personal or personality issue someone has with another individual than a real sense of umbrage at the use of the forum for something other than only the purposes they claim to support. An observation I have made of life in general - and anybody can apply this however and to whomever they want, or to no one - is that bigger the ego the thinner it stretches the skin surrounding it.
I have three signs that I printed up and hung above the desk in my litle office years ago.
1. The loudest boos come from the cheapest seats.
2. They crucified Jesus and shot Abraham Lincoln. What the Hell chance have I got?
3. I believe Victor just made an employment decision. (this was sent to me by the cashier after an employee decided to inform me in front of the crowd at the beginning of the auction that he would not remove his hat and put on a company cap.)
Instead of applauding and championing someone else's success or accomplishments there are some people whose self-percieved purpose in life is to denegrate anything anyone else has done and to remove all joy from any possible sense of satisfaction at having completed a job well done.
I recall a professor in college some 45 years ago who pointed out many times that education and knowledge in and of itself does not produce an adult. Sometimes it produces an educated child. At the time, since I was only about 17 or 18, I did not realize how true that statement was and how many times I would think of that over the years, sometimes about myself and sometimes about people I was trying to work with or deal with somehow.
Several years ago, I compiled a set of "rules" as part of a class I was teaching. After much discussion we agreed that the number one rule for some people was this: Never say anything good about anything or anybody unless you are absolutely forced into it and then make sure it is so condesending or sarcastic they know you didn't really mean it.
That will virtually guarantee having no friends. Probably doesn't have much to do with this thread--or possibly it does. Hard to say.
My stepdad, who was a great old farmer from eastern Montana who could cut to the chase about as quick as anybody I ever knew said this of a guy one time. Lots of truth.
"If that SOB ever had a good word to say about anybody or anything I'd kiss his bare hindend at noon on Saturday in the middle of main street and give him thirty minutes to draw a crowd!"
----Lots of people like that.
Anyway, I think you should post what you find. People can believe or not believe anything they want. That's the way this tends to work anyway. There are lots of things on this forum that I don't believe. Some I label as pure, unadulterated BS.
As always, other opinions may, will and probably should vary. It is a free country.
I'd better get to work.
Please post your findings as I told you I once sheared a woodruff key in the pinion gear and had neutral in a hurry.
I am just heading out the door to go to a rally with my T, and for that reason I have not read any more than the first few posts in this thread, but when I see Hap's name mentioned I have to speak out.
This gentleman has gone out of his way to help me get my T as authentic and reliable as it can be. I have never met him, and I live half a world away. He has bought parts on Ebay for me and shipped them only after finding the cheapest option possible. He has never made one cent of profit and his communications have been polite, friendly and enjoyable to receive. His e-mails and posts have helped me with my problems and I consider him to be a treasure to this forum.
If anyone is suggesting that Hap is anything other than a man of integrity, please contact me.
Jim. I've spent countless hours reading and learning more and more about the model T here and apreicieate the fact that the forum isn't filled with classified adds, However learning about new or improved products is priceless for me. I hope that things don't change much from what they currently are.
See RV Anderson's post today regarding modern insulation available for gas lamps? I sincerely appreciate this quick response and the web go-to info provided. Thx RV.
I don't believe HAP is involved in this thread.
Well put. In fact when the results of an aircraft mishap are published by the NTSB, (Nat'l Transportation Safety Board), the manufacturer's name and any other contributing sources are named.
Air Worthiness Directives (AD Notes) apply to all applicable aircraft and, it also names names.
Sooo, If we have a problem with a part, let's not let a single life be affected by a subsequent failure of a known problem part!!
The automobile industry now uses "recalls" to correct problems and limit liabilitiy.
I much prefer buying from the Model T guys. They're more forthright and honest. Plus most will return your money if you arn't satisfied. Makes sense,buying from your friends.
Uncle Jack, I did a survey years ago and found it was necessary for my friends to do business with me and for me to charge them for the goods and service I was providing as my enemies did not do business with me.
You wouldn't have had as much business then,and enjoyed it less. (G) Stay well my friend.
For goodness sake please post what happened to your car that caused the accident.If it saves 1 life,or someone getting hurt,then it is worth the entire crowd getting peeeeved if need be.
The suppliers read this forumn, if they dont,it is thier loss.If they see a part they sell has failed and why,it may prompt them to take immediate action to prevent liablity on thier part by requesting the supplier deal with the issue or change suppliers or specs.Whatever it takes.
It aint a matter of wanting to give lawyers more work,it is a matter of keeping our selves out of a situation that we would need a lawyer!Mine is makeing enough da## money off me as it is.
Stan. You sound as if you have had alot of experience with this and it is ashame that you were made to feel as if you were doing something wrong in informing us of your products. I have been participating on the Forum nearly as long as you, but I regret that I am unfamiliar with your work. Please list all the products you have ever supplied to Model T'rs over the years and if those products are still available. Since I am asking, it is okay for you to answer...as if you care whether or not it's okay to answer. Ha! (I hope you don't).
If there are others out there who have made parts for us, but have never listed them on here, because of the "phantom rule" (I like Bud Scudder's term), enforced by the intolerant few, I hope you too, will take this opportunity to let us know what you have.
I have probably the only original coil adjusting hammer in existence that I inherited from the original owner. It was given to me by his wife after he died. He was a machinist in his eighties and it apparently belonged to his Father, who was a mechanic in the treens and twenties. He made a few for me, by hand, based upon the original, which I sold to several MTFCA Forum members, several years ago, but he died a couple of years ago and no more have been made since. Maybe one day I will see if a machine shop can make more based on the original, but I doubt if they will be as good as the beautiful polished brass ones made by Norm. Thanks, Jim
I beg to differ, Jim! Why, just last week I had the pleasure of watching Ron adjust some coils with THE only surviving original adjusting hammer!
I just had to...waaay to much negativity eminating from this thread!
Time to have some fun!
Not to worry Jim there's an old hack machinist up in Michigan still making coil adjusting hammers for the tolerant few. Bob
Risking my own expulsion Bob, what would the cost be of one of those beauties?
Jim, did you start this thread for the purpose of hammer sales? ;-0
Seriously, I'm with Garnet...how much? Those are very nice! I don't adjust coils, but I do have a use. Sure, I could machine my own, but I don't mind contributing to a fellow T'er who has done a very fine job with a project.
Ok - so now I'm totally confused.
If I have a new product to offer - am I allowed to post something here saying it's available or not?
If someone is looking for something I sell, am I allowed to tell them I have it or not?
If someone is having a problem that one of my parts can help them with, am I allowed to tell them about it or not?
This thread started off with people complaining about others advertising their products on the forum and ended with an advertisement for a product (nothing against you Bob just an observation). I could have helped someone on one of the other threads but didn't because of this thread.
My own opinion as a supplier is that it is a service to everyone if a new product is posted here. It lets people know what is currently available on the market or what is in development. The only other way you are going to find out about it is to wait until the major vendors print a new catalog (which could take a year or more), or you check the suppliers web site (and how often do you go and check all the vendors web sites to see if there is something new?). I do see a problem if the forum turns into a classified section but I have not seen that happen so far. That's what the classified section is for - although suppliers are even banned from posting on that. Perhaps there should be a "Commercial" classified section for this purpose. Face it, if it were not for the people making and selling Model T parts for profit (what little there is), you would be just like the person restoring some of these obscure makes - making each part yourself.
So let's clarify exactly what the rules are so we are all playing by the same play book. That way nobody gets upset by someone breaking a "rule" that doesn't exist.
Hi Ray. LOL! No, this thread was not originally started so I could eventually bring up the hammers, but it does show that I can relate to the frustration that other parts providers must have felt in knowing they had something that others would be interested in, but never posted the fact due to the "phantom rule". How many of you knew Bob has been making these hammers for two years, but are only now finding out because he has been reluctant to mention the fact? Out of respect for Norm and the job he did providing us with the superbly hand-made, first prototypes based on an original hammer, I have not made the effort to have anymore made and probably won't, since Bob has such a nice product (thanks for the picture, Bob). I recall when this original coil hammer first surfaced, several years ago, no one (not even Ron) had ever seen an original and, since only black and white photos ever existed of them, were not aware that they (or at least some of them) were made of brass, since there apparently were many after market manufaturers making them between 1909 and 1927.
Bob, I'm glad to see you are still making those hammers. Wasn't your hammer designed using one of Norm's prototypes provided you by James Golden? I know you have provided alot of other parts for us in the past, as well. I recall I purchased a part for my Allen Coil Tester from you, but I only found out about it from someone who recommended you to me by e-mail, or I never would have known. How about a list of other parts you have provided to us in the past. I'll bet there are alot that I never knew about. Thanks to everyone for an interesting and informative thread. Jim Patrick
I don't know Bruce and mean no disrespect (and since I am a MTFCI member and not MTFCA maybe I am not the one who should even be asking), but unless he has been away from his computer and knows nothing about this thread, I would think that the best thing to do would be take a couple minutes and answer the question that started all this. We've heard "I've been on this forum and I know" and many opinions, but nothing from the only person who should be addressing the question.
Put it to rest, Bruce...please
So the real truth comes out...you were pimpin for Bob! LOL!
Okay...Bob! Give it up buddy! I wanna know about the hammers! So does Garnet!
Good suggestion Ray. Here is a little clarification from the originator of this thread. Since Langs, Snyder's, Bob's, Ford Parts Obsolete and Gaslight Auto Parts, etc., have catalogs that pretty much remain the same, from year to year, as far as products are concerned, I am mainly interested being informed about unique products that can be found nowhere else, but in the machine shops and the heads of talented, enterprising individuals such as Bob and Stan as well as other ndividuals who make hard to find parts that we do not even know about.
Like everyone else, I do not want to see the Forum cluttered with one catalog after another of easy to find parts and literature, such as can be found at the well known Model T parts suppliers, but I do not want the "phantom rule" to prevent others from informing us of new, truly unique and well made Model T items that we are all interested in. Thanks. Jim
Ray,You actually got to see Rons shop??!!
Does he make visitors wear white coveralls and face mask? :>)
The photos I have seen here on the net of his shop indicate he could do surgery in the place.
I aggree,I hope Bruce can come and help clear the air.I want to see us all get back to chuckling and getting along and keeping each other aware of what is out there to make our hobby and our T's better and safer.
that is the nice thing about being adults.We can aggree to disaggree and get on with life.
This is getting way too long to follow. When you guys get this worked out how about posting the condensed version under a new topic? How about "Rules of Engagement"?
Yes Jim I agree. Some of the best products to ever hit the market (or never made it, for that matter) came from the backyard garages and basement shops of the tinkerers and hobbyists. Those of us who find enjoyment in solving a problem and helping someone else (many times at our own expense) are few, but should have the freedom to offer that assistance or needed part to a fellow hobbyist who lacks the tools or knowledge to go it alone. Like was said somewhere above in all that fussing and personal jabbing, a Model T hobbyist knows more about making a part for a Model T than the corporate vendors will ever know. They lack the passion for the hobby, as I stated many times while a member of the BCA and reproducing vintage Buick parts. I didn't do it to make a living, in fact a lot of times I lost money on a project. I'm fully prepared to do the same thing as I come back into the T hobby after a long absence.
Mack, White coats and face masks? More like a space suit! AND, you have to go through a decontamination cell before entering, and wear a SCBA to prevent outside atmosphere from being carried into the laboratory in your lungs and expelled onto the sensitive equipment (or maybe he just didn't like my breath?)! The man is a mad scientist...what else can I say!!? Seriously, I've never met the man (only spoken briefly on the phone and he was very helpful) but after he reads this post he may send Vinnie and Guido to pay me a visit
Ron, if I'm gonna pick at one, I'm gonna pick on all!
Yes Mack, I too want to see the forum return to chuckles and sharing. We can all be gentlemen...I saw it when I first joined the forum.
There are already "Forum Rules" published on this website.
The rules ban “blatant commercial postings."
However, “blatant” and “commercial” are in the eye of the beholder.
When a new product is announced via the Forum, simply chalk it up as a “press release.”
• Commercial? Maybe.
• Blatant? Typically no.
• Beneficial to the poster and reader? Typically yes.
If a vendor gives advice on their products on the Forum, that’s called “value-added marketing.”
• Commercial? Maybe.
• Blatant? Typically no.
• Beneficial to both the poster and reader? Typically yes.
Ray how the hammer reproduction started was when Michael Pawelek ask if anyone had ever seen one and I like Jim had one that had been reproduced by a friend from an original and I posted this picture of mine on the forum.
The original my friend copied was made of steel so he reproduced the first ones the same way although in the picture it looks to be brass it is actually steel. About a month later Jim P sold one on ebay made by Norm which was made in brass and did quite well which then brought a few emails to me seeing if I would reproduce some. Later Jim Golden post a picture of one he had gotten from me and more orders came in. Since a debate followed as to their being made of brass or steel originally I started making three types, one all steel, one in brass and one with a steel handle and a brass head. In the end the all brass one sold the most so I dropped doing the others unless requested first.
Since this thread has gotten a bit long I will wait and see if the posting pictures of one off items is going to be tolerated here. I try and stay within a rule I have and that being " don't reproduce items already being done." and since I don't revive a viable income from items like is I can cease and desist in the future. Bob
Just to set the record straight. I do not manufacturer or make any parts, nor do I sell T parts for a living. I rebuild the occasional Ruckstell but they are usually done on a pre-bought basis, I build one up to whatever the buyer wants. I have sold most of my T parts on ebay and went to Chickasha last year and sold a bunch of stuff but I'm not in the T parts business nor the reproduction of parts business. The closest I have come to manufacturing anything is writing a book and I've given about half of those away. I suppose there are people who would bitch about me posting on a thread last week that it is again available, now being in the third printing (the first two were a little fuzzy. That's an old joke)
I have, however, been in business for the last 45 years in one way or another - everything from drilling water wells to owning a music store and recording studio, an antique mall, the auction business and a couple others I'd like to forget - and have been involved in various clubs and organizations for lots of different interests. There is usually someone who sets himself up to be the arbitor of what is and isn't correct in his mind and who tries to enforce that on the other members. Sometimes it works but more often people see through it pretty quickly. My observation is that their tirade is usually brought on by a case of their thin skin being stretched over their big ego. A secondary cause is jealousy towards people who actually know something and do something as opposed to people who talk about how much they know but actually do very little.
My involvement in this thread is that I like to see new products and new ideas and I really don't care if somebody makes money on the product or not. Hell, it's America. We have a free enterprise system. I try to make a profit when I do something and I fully expect people to make a profit when they do something. Making some piddly trinket and giving them to your friends is not the same as setting up to manufacture a product for sale, protecting your design, producing the inventory, obeying the laws related to manufacturing, setting up a sales system, a shipping system, a system to handle the money, paying taxes on the income, paying employees--all the things that it takes to bring a product to market and sell it. There is a lot more to it than meets the eye and then in this hobby, you are selling to a small and limited clientele. I can't imagine somebody bitching about a new product annoucement being posted on the forum when it is something that is needed, sought out and valuable to the hobby.
On the other hand, somebody pointed out to me the other day that the difference in genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
As a further aside, not that this has much of anything to do with anything, I taught school for the first 20 years of my adult life and was a school administrator when I quit that about 30 years ago to go into full time self-unemployment.
Well, I'm off to work in my shop today. Tired of listing crap on ebay.
Final advice to whoever it is that thinks John and Ron shouldn't have put anything on the forum about John's new ammeter, which is what started the rant. Grow up, get over it, quit thinking you speak for everybody and if you have so many good ideas and know so much about business, produce a valuable product that I might buy and send me an email with your web site so I can take a look at it or send me a product sample to evaluate. I will guarantee you I have money enough to buy it, whatever it is you make for a Model T. If it is a good product I will buy it if I need it, feel it is fairly priced and that you will stand behind the quality. I will expect top quality, a warranty, on-line and live support and a money back guarantee. Just like John does with his products. As they used to say on the playground when I was a kid and somebody was jacking their jaw over something, "Put up or shut up."
I'm still waiting to see the copy of the "rules" posted that were being touted at the beginning of this thread. I challenged the poster to put them up, tell me who wrote them and who enforces them. Looks to me like there weren't any or they would have been posted.
When I roughnecked in the oil field 45 years ago there was a guy named Hard Times Rogers who had a saying I liked. "Don't let your mouth be writing any checks your ass can't cash." Applies to a lot of people and situations.
Sort 'em at the door.
full circle, back where we started...so much for gentlemen putting it to rest.
I give up
Nooooo Ray. Don't give up. Stan and Bob were just answering my request to provide a list of parts they have provided in the past. We might never know unless we ask. My fault. Have a great day Ray and thanks for your insightful contributions. Jim
Oh not giving up on anything except trying to do some small part to save this thread. I'm gonna buy a hammer from Bob though! I guess something productive cam out of it after all! I'm gonna post pictures of every use I can find for his hammer too. Kinda hate to use something that looks that nice...
Ray, all you have to do is not read it. In my opinion it is not your call or anyone else's to tell me or anyone else to "put it to rest." This is just as much my forum as it is yours and I will continue to have an opinion as long as I feel I have something to say. You may disagree. It is a free country and the right of free speech is guaranteed in the Constitution and paid for by the blood of millions who have defended that right. You also have the right to disagree and you have the right to not read or agree with anything I write. But I will say this: I sign my name and will back anything I say. If I had been the one stating that there were rules for the forum I damn sure could have produced them. I am still waiting for the person who started all of this to step up with any formal "rules" and to identify who wrote them.
Hi Stan. I started all this, but I never offered to produce any rules. I too have never seen any rules that dictated that it is forbidden for anyone to inform the Forum participants of products they may have created or of anyone recommending someone elses products, yet, there have always been that vocal clique of intolerant few who chastise anyone who has the audacity to inform the folks on the forum of a new product they created, as selfish, self serving and trying to make money at our expense (poor us). The whole premise of the thread evolved when Hap was criticized in another thread for "pimping for a friend", when he recommended where to find a certain piece of information in a book.
Several postings after my starting posting, a contributor referred to the rules, which prompted you to rightfully ask this person, not me, where these rules were. If I had them, I'd post them, but like you, I don't believe they exist. Take care. Jim Patrick
The rules are posted on the Forum website.
A link to the rules is clearly shown on the splash page for the forum:
Subsquent links/navigation below -
That is where I obtained the phrase "blatant commercial postings" in my previous post.
Stan, with all due respect to you sir, I didn't read it because it's more of the same old complaining; paragraph after paragragh of little more than self-praise and the constant reminders of who you are and all the things you've done, and trying to pick a fight just when it appeared the friction had finally subsided. Since you can't call out the one you're hunting for, you now want to call me out? Do you not have the ability to abstain from beating a dead horse? You like the friction...don't you? You feel that someone offended a friend of yours, and you're not going to let up until somebody takes your bait and you can get a full-blown pissing contest going. If anyone should be upset, it should be Ron and John. You had no dog in the race, yet you were lying in wait ready to pounce. They're big boys and do great work without your help, but apparently you feel they aren't capable of standing up for themselves and let their reputations speak. Seem like fine men to me and shouldn't need the wind blowing for their benefit. At first I thought it was just a personal thing with Seth (I don't mind including his name since apparently you are unable to be honest about who you have a beef with), but now I see that you just want a confrontation with anyone available that might not agree with your "my way or the highway" (take off that ball cap) mentality.
I don't mean to imply that I dislike you Stan, in fact I kinda do. It's a classic example of the pot calling the kettle black though when you talk about someone pissing and moaning, sir. I enjoy your posts when you are trying to be a gentleman and play well with others, but that has been on rare occasion in the short time I've been visiting this forum. Fellas like you aren't hard to figure out. Per your own advice, I sorted you at the door.
I didn't tell you or anyone else to put it to rest, my statement was "so much for gentlemen putting it to rest". If you took my statement in any other context as it was intended, that's for you to deal with in some other way than attempting to put words in my mouth. You and I seldom speak the same language, and I thank God for that! Even now, I will not try to tell you what to do, so you can keep that right to free speech (that I possess as well) and all the other meaningless strings of words that go along with it. You have every right to say whatever you want to say and I'll keep on skimming right past it to read what is interesting. I can see why you had to give your books away. I feel bad for you. That has to be disheartening. If it is anything like the post above (and numerous other carbon-copies of it), jumping subject to subject with no real direction is not good writing. The reader needs to know what the point is. When you want to talk Model T's, I'm all ears buddy :-)
"the difference in genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits"
(you said it, I just copied and pasted a quote from a legend in his own mind)
You have a good day sir, and I hope you get over whatever it is that's making you so unhappy with your life so we can get back to T'n
Wow, Erik...right there under our noses every time we visit.
Thanks for that. Now we all know and maybe the bickering can be laid to rest ;-)
I read them,and as far as I can discern no one has violated squat. Let's get on with it.
Well, I found that whole rant to be pretty funny, got him wound up like a dollar watch. I'll only respond to one thing, I didn't HAVE to give any books away. I gave them away to people I thought would enjoy the stories. Actual sales have been clear up into a dozen or more. I won't post anymore about it tho, since I don't want to be seen as "pimping" myself.
Stan, I hope you found it as funny as I found yours. :-) I'm glad you took it well. My hatchet is buried, sir, and I will not speak of it or post to this thread again. I don't hold grudges...life is too short. Say what's eating at me and move along.
Have a good day sir, and I trust our next conversation will be more civil (but I won't take off my ball cap) ;-)
(gettin on with it!)
If I had a dog in the ring it would jump fence and run. But I will say,it seems that every couple months a rant thread happens.Everybody has to jump in.Includeing me,cant take myself out of it.
Geez,dont grown men normaly go ahead and send a email to the person they have a gripe with and settle it?Or maby a phone call?That is how a few members of another forumn settle their disputes,1 will pm their phone number and say "ok give me a call,lets talk about this".next day both post the hatchet is buried,it was all a simple misunderstanding and all is fine.
It could be done here as well.
I read some stuff a couple months ago in reference to the economy and such and I disaggred with 1 of the posters bad.I sent him a email and ask politely for him to help me understand his point of view.We still disaggree,but neither of us argue over it on here.We both dropped it like we were checking hot taters.
You're right, Mack...this otherwise very sane and civil exchange of information is sometimes the "arena" of some not so civil words. Such a shame...some of this threads posters have contributed a great amount of pleasant words in the past....neat pictures of trucks earning their keep, very nice stories about life in the old days. All pleasant and interesting reading....what happened?
In keeping with the title of this thread, there is an interesting (to me) thread just about this time last year. If you're curious, see:
No one had any issues with the discussion contained in those posts...what went wrong to generate these words today?
The "keyword search" function of this Forum is a great resource - if a part or item or tool is needed, there is a darned good chance one of our members has written about it in the past....maybe he/she sells it, maybe she/he knows someone who sells it.
Ohers have said, and I wholeheartedly agree - as a whole the member vendors are a great bunch of people, and if we humans can't buy/sell/barter/trade amongst ourselves, things are pretty bad! (However, in all honesty, I just think a burr got under the saddle - it's been removed - and tomorrow will bring peace and harmony again. I hope so.)
In the meantime, whatever is sent into the internet can be read around the world by all ages. We're trying to keep these old machines "alive", aren't we? We need young blood to do that. Let's entertain the impressionable youngsters with our neat stories and expert advice, and not scare them away.
You're all a great bunch, with varied and interesting talents. I'd not like to see anyone "go away".
Regards, and have a pleasant day tomorrow. Dave
Hot dammn, boys, I remember my first beer too.
Never drank a beer.So I cant share that memory :>)
Or is it "barley soda"? :>)
Anyhow,I cant remember my first Mountain Dew,but I remember my last 1,and it was to long ago,sometime yesterday afternoon.So gota go git 1!
Been doing garden work yesterday,pruneing grapevines,No I didnt hear anything thru them! :>)
I remember my first beer. Budweiser. Tasted so bad I had to have six more before I could get the taste out of my mouth. It's the rest of the night I don't remember.
Budweiser? My dad calls that snake poison.The reason being when on the job 1 day he found a strange sight,it was a big black snake that had stuck it's head in a Budweiser can and got him a drink and then got stuck in the can and he kinda croaked there.
Thinking back,I think it was either Miller or Pabst that may have played a part in me happening!
I have one complaint. I typically sell on eBay one month out of the year. I like the early brass stuff so that's what I collect and sell. Most are really hard to find items and some go for quite a bit. That's not to say I make a good profit. When one factors in the trips to swap meets ie Chickasha etc from central California, it can hardly be said my activity is profit motivated. It's really more of an extension of the hobby for me since it gives me something to buy at swap meets and something do during one month of the winter when I can't work on my cars.
But all that is really beside the point. Here's my comlaint. When I tried to alert folks on this website (dont recall if it was on the forum or classified) that I had early stuff for sale on eBay, the post was deleted. Now, there are folks out there that are really looking for early brass stuff, stuff which is darn hard to find. I think the early brass members would like to know if this stuff comes available whether on eBay or not. Many, perhaps all, of them do browse eBay anyway, but I resent the fact my post was deleted. I never did understand the resentment against someone wanting to sell for profit.
Hi Richard, (and other who may have been affected),
Awhile back, there was a tremendous influx of spam on the classified page....I mean LOTS and LOTS...and not just your typical spam, but some rather obnoxious stuff (IMHO).
Bruce deleted it, and it re-appeared - almost as fast as he deleted it.
I seem to remember DaGunny also deleting some during Bruce's absence.
In any event, memory tells me Bruce was getting pretty disgusted - he deleted, it re-appeared, ad nauseam.
At one point, I do believe he apologized for perhaps unintentionally deleting a proper, authentic, allowable post or two from our group. This happened accidentally, as the proper post(s) was (were)intermingled with some of the spam.
Just my memory of past happenings - Richard, there have been many posts by others alerting us to e-bay sales....I can't imagine that yours was removed intentionally.
Hope that my memory is correct, and that your resentment gets blown away with the next breeze.
"Keyword Search" is a wonderful resource for us...
Richard (and others),
this is a post be Bruce from several months ago....
By Bruce McCalley on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 06:47 pm:
Perhaps I deleted it if it appeared among all the spam we have been getting. As a rule I highlight the spam entries all at once and if a legitimate ad is among them I could miss it and it gets deleted as well. It sure wasn't on purpose but it could happen. I'm truly sorry.
Hope this helps eliminate any animosity.
It is really terrible what just a little misunderstanding can do to a relationship! Richard, I am not computer literate enough to find your wares on e-bay...I, for one, would like a short, concise, "heads up" on your offerings.
In Conclusion: Sooo, since this thread is about to wind down and end and Bruce has not come on here to clarify this, I would say that we, on our own, have discovered a few things from this thread.
1. There is no rule forbidding enterprising individuals from informing us whenver they have a new Model T related product that, they feel, could benefit our hobby.
2. No rules are being broken, whenever it happens, so those intolerant, but, vocal few, who don't like it, for whatever reason, should just please ignore it and not criticize or chastise someone for doing it, since it appears that the majority of us don't mind and actually welcome being informed of a new product or discovery that may benefit us and our hobby.
3. The last thing any of us want to see, is for the Forum to change from what it is now, which is an information Forum, to an ad Forum. This is just injecting a little more tolerance into the mix by now allowing a pracitce that has, in fact, never been prohibited, except for an unspoken "phantom rule" that, over the years, has grown and been rigidly enforced for reasons unknown.
4. Let's just take care not to deluge the Forum with entire catalogs of easy to find products of well known parts houses, when a website address will suffice in these cases, but let's not forbid folks from informing or recommending to us their ideas, discoveries and products, or those of others, if it will benefit us.
5. If abuses do start occurring to the point of radically changing the Forum from what we currently enjoy, then we can come back and re-visit the issue and discuss the problem, to which point, new rules forbidding the practice may need to be enacted, but not until we know for sure if abuses will occur. We have always been a self policing group, keeping eachother in line and want what is best for our Forum and our contributors (participants), so above all, the health and continuation of the Forum, as we now know it (with just a little more tolerance), is tantamount.
Thank you everyone for a lively and informative discussion. I have learned something here and hope that those of you who have an idea, a product in developement or an actual product that will benefit us and our hobby, will not hesitate to let us know, without worrying that you are doing something wrong, or you will be criticized for it, for it has been deduced here by the rules posted by Erik and by our own discussions, that you aren't.
Thanks for the explanation Dave. The event happened well before the spam incident, though. I feel relieved there has been a change of policy and that I can post a heads up next time around. Thanks again.
Let's do this: put tbay in the title of every auction you have. It will be our own keyword. That way all potential buyers need only punch tbay in the search. Before it gets to be real popular, you can just put in the classifieds: "Search for tbay" when you have an item on tbay.
Bruce said here some time ago that posts which alert readers to ebay listings would be deleted. Apparently the feeling was that listing ebay ads here was subsidizing ebay, which really needs no help, and it takes up space here. No one objects to our participants' selling Model T parts for a profit; that's what our Classified Ads section is for.
Mercy me,the refund came today on the pulley I had bought that wasnt nos.The man I called a yahoo in my first post on this thread,aint a yahoo!He did what he said he would do.That my friends is honesty and good service,something hard to find nowadays.
It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong, and apologize. Not in private, mind you, but for all to see, TWICE. THAT, my friends, is integrity! And Mack, you've got a lot of it.
Mike. Really. A waste of space? Think about it. How much space does it take to alert us to a Model T part for sale on ebay? Only a few words and an ebay auction item number. It's not like we are dealing with real estate. We are dealing with words here and the exchange of ideas and information is what the Forum is all about. Not the conservation of space for something REALLY important. Who's gonna decide that. Please, let's just let the Forum participants have a little leeway here without worrying over how much space is being used or wasted. Whether it is wasted space or useful information depends on the person reading it and whether or not he needs the information. There is alot of information on here that does not interest me in the least, so I might consider it wasted space, but you don't see me trying to get Bruce to delete it because of what I may think. Post it all and let the reader decide. If just one person learns something new, or is informed of the sale of a part he has been seeking for his Model T, the post is not wasted space, but a valuable exchange of information, which is the whole idea. Jim
Jim -- None of what I reported above was initiated by me. I was just passing along what the webmaster(s) said a while back. I don't remember for sure now whether it was Bruce or maybe Tony when he was helping Bruce out. Anyway, best I remember, it was as I stated above. Maybe it was before the server change when space was more critical. Maybe they thought that selling on ebay and talking about it here was costing some participation in our own Classifies. At any rate, the powers that be decided that it was inappropriate, and that those posts would be deleted. I was just mentioning what they said back then; please don't shoot the messenger.
Questions are answered here on this forum all the time that are "wasted space" because the answer can be found in the encyclopedia. Those posts get answered, not deleted, and rarely is anyone told to "look it up in the encyclopedia".
So, just "go for it". Post whatever you want and if the folks in charge deem it "inappropriate", it will get removed.
Over time, you'll know what the definition of "inappropriate" is. Some will likely get away with more than others.
Sorry Mike. My mistake. When you said, "No one objects to our participants selling parts for a profit; that's what our Classified Ads section is for", I thought you were advocating the prohibition of Forum participants alerting eachother to Model T parts for sale on ebay and only permitting participants to use the classified ads section for this. I didn't realize you were quoting someone else and these were not your thoughts at all. I guess I misunderstood your meaning. Have a great weekend. Jim
Seth,you are correct about the encyclopedia being a good source of info if a person sits back 1 evening and reads thru it.
But for me sometimes when someone like your self or Jack,for example, answers a question for me or others in "laymens" terms here on the forumn,it helps me to understand things alot better alot quicker.Jack has been a big help the past few days getting some measurments.I aint used them yet as I have been doing yard and garden work while it is short sleeve weather in febuary.
But it will be used!
Let's git back to makeing them 4 bangers run!
When Jack answers maybe, but don't get too crazy - you know dang well that I haven't been around near long enough to know squat.
Laziness is the big reason nobody reads the encyclopedia, IMO. Why look up the answer when you can ask right here?
Why go to eBay when you can check for interesting listings right here?
Why go to the classifieds when it can be discussed right here?
Why even bother with a vendor's catalog when you can ask AND SHOP, RIGHT HERE?
Guys,you help, when you can. That's what it's all about.
Yep,I just hope once I learn enough I can help others to!
Takes time to learn this stuff.I am trying.
I guess I am to diverified and my knowledge is slower gained because I work on so many other things than T's. But most info relates really like freeing rusty parts and such.Lately I have told my friends that if Nasa happened to leave the shuttle in the back yard,it would be in a 1000 peices in 2 days,because I would want to see how it ticked!
Said I wouldn't post to this thread again, but after reading what has been said I want to apologize to Stan and everyone else for being out of line. My post was unnecessary and counter-productive. I have better things to do, as he also stated, than bicker.
Now, I'm finished :-)