Valve seat grinding.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Valve seat grinding.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 10:28 pm:

I am lucky to have a buddy that picked up a Siuox "spelling" valve refaceing machine.Tonight He did a set of valves for me and a couple spares and boy they look good.
He ask about the valve seats in the block.The seats look ok to me,maby 1 that will need a little more lapping than the rest,#4 exhaust seat is a little rough.
He said I should get some body to do the seats.
I have a 45 degree black and decker cutter but I dont have the pilot or a handle to work it.I picked up a OLD black and decker drive motor and some cutters and a few pilots but nothing will work on the T block except for that 1 thing that says turn by hand.
I am confused because my dad says you use a blue grinding stone to clean up the seats,not a cutter.He says that just centers it for ye.

I shoulda took a picture of the stuff I have and posted it.

Anyhow my question is,Other than spending 500 bucks or more,is there not a grinding stone and pilot that can be had to do T valve seats?
I can take the block to a shop I know of and probably leave it 2 weeks and hope he dont knock it off in the floor and bust it and pay out the yingyang.
I cant stand farming out work,but on this 3rd T project I have allready had to farm out the sandblasting,get a machinst buddy to clean up the threads on the rear spring clamps and now had to farm out the valve refaceing.I want to do as much on this project myself as I can more or less for the learning experiance and of course to save a buck if I can.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Houston, Broken Arrow, OK on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 10:36 pm:

The Neway Cutters are the way to go.

We always have to straighten up the seats after our machinist gets thru with them. Maybe he has poor centers, I don't know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 10:39 pm:

Thanks Fred.I was sitting here thinking in the small engine shop I worked at for several years we invested in a neway set for the small engines.I thinks I will go over there in the morning and see just how big that set goes to.
And I will post a photo of the stuff i have for folkes to see and comment on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Perigo on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 10:50 pm:

Mack,

I just ground my valve seats using an old valve grinding setup from the local Ford garage. It's not a Sioux, but another name brand....anyway it's way old. It is basically a right angle drill with a star shaped chuck for holding the grinding stones. I found a centering pilot that fit the valve guides before I reamed them. When I checked the valve surface using lapping compound, the seat was right on. The Ford garage never uses this grinding setup any more, but they won't sell it:-(

My buddy...a Model A guy.....has an original Sioux valve seat re-surfacer that we used to grind off the valve stems for the proper lash.

I have to say that the valves look "sweet" to quote my high school students:-)

Maybe an old, established Ford agncy in your area would have a grinding setup you could borrow.

Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By DaGunny on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 11:23 pm:

I have to agree with Fred. The Neway cutters are neat and effective. I put a slides show of some pictures I had on my site.
http://www.cimorelli.com/neway-web/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken - SAT on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 12:22 am:

I concur with the Neway cutters. Pricey when new but I see small engine sets on ebay once in a while. Each head will cut two angles. If you find the heads used and need new carbide inserts, they'er about $8 each and give a "ready-to-go" finish--No lapping necessary or suggested. (You'll ruin the mirror finish)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 01:00 am:

I have used several brands over the years. I bought a set of the Neway cutters about 2 years ago and like them. I like not having to reface the stones. I have lent them to several T guys and every one seems to like them. They are pricy but will be the last set I will have to buy.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brendan Doughty on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 08:14 am:

Does anyone know where to get new stones for the Sioux valve seat grinders?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 11:53 am:

Goodson -- they have parts and stones for most things. While not quite as spiffy as the Nuway, I have a Lisle valve seat cutter that was less than half the money and works beautifully. It cuts the three angles on the seat in just a minute or two. I bought this used at an auction but they are only about two hundred bucks for the set new. Cut any size seat up to about 2 1/2 inch but I've never used it on anything much bigger than T valves.

I also have a Snap On valve machine with the seat grinder but for standard seats this works much better. The stone type of seat grinder is designed for hard seats and it is pretty easy to overgrind the seats in a T block unless they have had hard seats installed at some time.

Actually, the old cutter type of seat dressing tools that are available very cheaply on ebay and other places do a very nice job of redressing the seats in a T engine. The problem with them is that they don't cut the modern type of seat with the three angles. The other side of that is that T engines ran for the first half of the century before anybody figured out that three angles on the seat was better.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 12:00 pm:

Well my dad mentioned this morning about knurling the valve guides.I got the block out of the shop and looked close and checked things out and it could use knurling and seat fixing.so the block is in the truck and I think I will be toteing it to a fellow this evening and let him do it.I only have 1 other block that will need this and it will need to be bored and sleeved so I can get the valve work done then also.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 02:55 pm:

Well,I took the engine block to a older fellow at a machine shop,and he handed me the tools,and showed me a couple things and he went back to what he was doing.He only charged 10 bucks for his time and use of the tools.So I dont think I coulda come out no cheaper!
Knurled the guides,and faced the seats and all looks good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 11:19 am:

Stan - I'm way behind in keeping up with the forum as we've been on the road with the motorhome for over a month; from Seattle to Tucson, then to San Antonio to visit kids & grandkids and visit with our son, a captain in USAF who was about to (and just did) depart for a 6 mo. tour in Iraq, then to Knoxville, TN where we just had a new grandson, a great grandson and great grandaughter all born within the last couple weeks. (the grandson & great grandson born on 2/27, within 7 hrs of each other). Anyway, all this to say I meant to respond to this thread some time ago, but........? (Sorry; the proud grandpa' thing ya' know)

Anyway, NUWAY,.......for me, the only way to go. And as has been pointed out, yes, it is expensive equipment, but I did want to pass a couple things along that I've learned:

First, the NUWAY equipment is absolutely first class quality equipment, and as has been pointed out elsewhere in this forum, the NUWAY people will spend as much time as necessary in guiding you toward only buying the exact componants you need. I only needed to buy two cutters and one pilot, which gave me the capability to cut perfect 3-angle valve seats. One cutter can cut one angle, then you turn it over and cut another angle, and the third angle is cut with a second single cutter. I can't remember which angles are on the double cutter and which is the single, but the combination gives you 30 deg., 45 deg., and 60 deg., for a perfect 3-angle modern valve seat, properly centered, and much better than any "ground" valve seats as was done during the Model T era. (and for many years after the "T" for that matter) As they are carbide blades, they hold their sharpness and cut consistant angles and never have to be "dressed" as does a stone. And here's another neat thing that I was not aware of, but was advised by the NUWAY customer rep that helped me order the right equipment; I bought the ADJUSTABLE pilot, which works perfectly in Ford valve guides, standard guide, worn standard, oversized, oversized but worn guide, etc.

Bottom line.......I sure was able to do a great valve job with these NUWAY cutters and new stainless steel valves, and if I can do it, anybody can!

And one other point I wanted to mention; I called NUWAY and ordered this equipment on the advice of a Harley Davidson mechanic that works at a very large HD agency in Tacoma, WA. What really sold me was the fact that this mechanic took me back in their shop and showed me their very large NUWAY valve seat cutting kit, and he said that he personally did all of the valve work in their shop, and that the only way they (he) does valve seat work on all HD engines is by cutting (not grinding) valve seats with NUWAY cutters.

I felt like I was really being overly "extravigant" by spending over $300 on this NUWAY stuff, but I can tell you that I'd do it again "in a heartbeat" as it works so well. And, I've told the guys in my club that anyone is welcome to borrow it whenever needed. In fact, the set I bought would be a great purchase by any club for members use.

By the way, in just reading this post over to correct a few "typos", I realize that I sound like a NUWAY sales rep or something, but I certainly have nothing to do with this (or any other) company; it's just that I have been so pleased with NUWAY equipment and wanted to share what I've learned with anybody else that might be interested.

harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 12:55 pm:

Like Harold I had a good experience talking to the folks at Neway. I bought a #643 cutter (15 and 60 degree) and a #642 cutter (31 and 46 degree). I also bought 3 pilots. 5/16+15, 11/32 STD, and a #1508 adjustable. You will also need to buy one of their T handle wrenches for turning the cutters.
Every one who has borrowed them from me has liked them.

Neway contact info - 800-248-3889
www.newaymfg.com

I hope this info helps.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 01:19 am:

Paul - Thanx for including the web site address; I've been mis-spelling it all this time; could have sworn it was Nuway, but it's NEWAY,........harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Scherzer on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 04:03 pm:

I'm from the old school when it comes to refacing valves and seats. I worked in a high performance engine rebuilding shop just out of college and we did everything with stones, no cutters. I have multi-flute cutters but never use them unless I have to open up a valve seat to a larger size. I figured if stones were good enough to grind the valves then they are good enough to grind the seats. With valve and seat grinding becoming a lost art you can pick up complete older equipment a lot cheaper then having to buy new. I picked up this complete seldom used Sioux valve seating outfit at a swap meet last fall for a $150. valve grinder

I also picked up my valve refacer for $300 at a school sale along with the seating equipment thrown in.
valve grinder

I also feel a valve job is not complete when rebuilding these older engines if the guides and seats are not replaced also. It's easy to just ream the guides to an oversize but I also then knurl the guides to give better oiling yet maintain a tight clearance. I picked up three of these UTP guide knurler sets from a guy selling used shop equipment for less then $75 for the three. With these three I was able to make one and half complete sets.

valve guide knurler

And finally to do the seats I picked up this older seat installer for $100 and with replacement seat costing less the $5 apiece I don't feel it's any savings to not replace them with new ones while you have apart.

valve seat insert jig

If you watch on e-bay you will see them being sold in the price ranges as I have paid. The problem is what do you do with these if you haven't been taught their uses. Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rod Gaffrey on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 05:16 pm:

Bob do you have any extra knurling wheels that you would part with?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john curry on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 08:07 pm:

mack. i have used guide knurlers and piston knurlers in the past. woan't do it again. if the valve guides are that sloppy then replace the guide and regrind the seats to be concentric. knurling removes metal in the hopes of sweaging some metal up to close the hole size, then reams to finish size. it doesn't last long, in that the high spots soon wear and then you will have to replace the guides anyway. john


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Scherzer on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 09:49 pm:

John, I agree that resizing loose guides with the knurling method is short lived if you have a lot clearance to begin with or not having the knurling operations performed correctly. The main reason I have continued to use it even after replacing the block with new valve guides or reamed to an oversized is not to tighten up the clearance but to produce an oil groove to allow oil to be metered up the guide on a tight clearance between the guide and valve stem preventing galling and sticking plus prolonging the guide life. This is the same reason for knurling the thrust side of a piston and then filing it back to its original size. What you have left is the cross hatch grooves that will hold oil to prevent galling. Some manufacturers of guides will groove their guides to help in this oiling method.

Sorry, Rod a friend already got my extra wheels, reamers and wheel holders. Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Monday, March 03, 2008 - 10:54 pm:

Well since this thread is still active,maby you all can shine some light on a discussion I have had with the fellow that ground the valves for me.He refurbishes the old 2 cylinder john deeres.He sent a head to a machineist and had the valve seats replaced and so forth.The head came back to him and the valves werent lapped in.He called and ask why the heck the valves werent lapped.The machinest said it wasnt nessasary.They put the tractor back together,and the thing runs great.
Either I am out of style,out of touch or something,but how does a valve seat without lapping?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky on Monday, March 03, 2008 - 11:57 pm:

"...how does a valve seat without lapping?"

They don't, if they're ground. They will after a while as the seat wears but when new, not so much.

That's why cutting is better. The seats and valves can be cut and the finish is like a mirror. No lapping is necessary when cut. Grinding leaves circular ridges that should be lapped down to seal from the start. If the stone is in poor shape and the valve isn't lapped, you could burn an exhaust valve before they seat on their own. There's also less maintenance with cutters vs. grinding stones. As the stone wears, it needs to be dressed. And they should be dressed often. (like a bench grinding wheel) The carbide cutters last a very long time even with daily use.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john curry on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 02:44 am:

interfearence angle, valve is ground 1 degree less than the seat is. 44 degree and 45 degree. there will be a fine contact line that will make a good seal. also if all is concentric and seat is proper width it will seal. for the t i think it is as much abuut cleaning the carbon out and if the valves and seats are in good condition, then lapping will restore the seal. john

lapping valves


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 10:06 am:

The detailed instructions that accompany NEWAY valve seat cutting equipment make a very strong point of what Ken K. said above. The NEWAY manual does not only say that lapping in is not necessary, they are very emphatic that NO LAPPING IN should ever be done after cutting new valve seats with NEWAY carbide cutters. I guess my thought is that certainly, NEWAY wants the use of their equipment to be successful, so they would certainly not discourage "laping in" with compound if they thought it was necessary. For what it's worth,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 10:09 am:

Hey John, am I seeing things or have you got a couple of busted off head bolts to deal with?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john curry on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 11:50 am:

hey harold, only had one break, busted off during dissambly. already delt with it and am back on the road.






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