Starter question

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Starter question
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Wednesday, February 13, 2008 - 09:53 pm:

I have had a little starter problem on the project.Thought it was the solinoid and put on a new 1.Werent it.
I gave the starter a turn with a screw driver thru the slot you can see the brushes thru and it worked several starts and has done it again.Had to push it in the shed.
It appeared the brushs had left alot of black on the copper,comutator I think it is,I am thinking I may need to replace the brushs and give the copper a good cleaning.

Are the brushes difficult to put in? It allmost appears that I can remove the plate and install them without tearing the starter off the engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska on Wednesday, February 13, 2008 - 11:25 pm:

Mack,
If the mica insulating material that is between each copper segment is not undercut where the brushes run they will hold the brushes up off of the copper segments. This will lead to the discoloration you describe and will actually hold the brush up high enough that they will not make contact and the starter will not run. A motor rebuild shop can undercut this for you and clean up the segments. Hope that helps.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken - SAT on Thursday, February 14, 2008 - 01:18 am:

Undercutting the starter segments isn't necessary because the bronze brushes are hard. Undercutting is done for carbon brushes like that on the generator. But, I think the problem is still the brushes. The brushes could be worn or the springs are weak.

You might be able to just pull the rear (front) cap but it's going to be difficult to get the screws and the brush connection on the engine side. You might as well pull it and give it a good going over. Check the bearings for wear and any frayed wiring.

You pushed in the shed? What, no crank?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Thursday, February 14, 2008 - 01:24 pm:

Oh yes,it has a crank,but my left arm aint the best and I dont want to risk breaking the right cranking a T.I am afraid I will forget to retard the timeing.My memory is very short and sparatic. And I was in a hurry,thunder and lightning and the rain came just as I pulled the tarp over the front of the shed to protect it.
I have another starter I will go over and slide it in there I guess.Thanks for the help.I didnt think about 1 of the screws being a pain to get to.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Thursday, February 14, 2008 - 07:53 pm:

Well,I went down to the shed,found 2 decent starters on the shelf in the parts shed.I took 1 apart,cleaned stuff and got it working but the insolater was gone from the stud.I had another that wanted to bind when it run.
So I took them to a local fellow I had never met but heard about for years.
He opened them up,put each armature in a lathe and cleaned up the bearing surface,copper,and then cleaned up the brushes.We found 1 bad rear bushing,so I only have 1 of the 2 working but boy,it works great.
So I will just replace the 1 on the project and then repair that 1 for a shelf spare.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 03:46 pm:

As someone stated above, the starter uses a bronze, or at least bronze colored, brush. If your commutator looks black, as you stated, someone may have put the wrong brushes in to begin with.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 07:52 pm:

The 1 I had repaired yesterday had the brushes you are speaking of.I aint sure what is in the 1 on the vehical at the moment but I will know this weekend as I am going to swap the starters out.
Got a better right hand splash apron today for the project.Been kinda holding off fixing the dents in the 1 I bolted on because i thought I could find 1 that would take less filling to look decent.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 10:43 pm:

Well I got the good starter installed today.Great results.But I couldnt believe what I had done in regards to the 1 I was running on the project.Dumb@@@ me had grabbed the thing off the shelf,blew the dirt out,cleaned it up,it run,I musta bolted it on and not remembered that I should at least make sure the brushs are cleaned up and free to move and so forth.that thing is gummed up as can be.Wonder it worked long as it did.
And the bushing on the brush end is busted.As are all the brush ends I have except for the 1 I used on the good starter.I dont know if I fiqured it aint broke dont monkey with it or if it was just 1 of those brain toots or what that I used that starter without going over it.

I found the bushings can be had reasonable and I will order a couple shortly with some other stuff.Do I just bust the old 1 out with a punch and hammer? Does the new 1 drive in and stop in the right place? I have 2 starters I can repair with new bushings and clean up the brushes,so I fiqure go ahead and do it and lay them up in case I need them later.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 10:52 pm:

Mack, rather than replace the bushing with another,why not replace it with a double sealed ball bearing. The # is 6201-2RS-1/2-CB. That and a short spacer to keep the brush holder from grounding out will last you much better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 10:57 pm:

That number looks familar,is that a simlar bearing to the 1's that go in the generator?
Would the spacer go on the shaft before it went into the bearing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 11:22 pm:

The Gen. bearing is slightly smaller. Yes the spacer goes on before the shaft goes into bearing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JAMES M. RIEDY on Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 02:07 am:

Jack, What is the brand that goes with that part number, or is it a industry standard? Thanks Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 11:19 am:

STD bearing number.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 01:17 pm:

Mack
As Jack points out you're far better off with the ball bearing/spacer kit sold by Chaffins Garage.
The bronze bushing kit being sold is a problem because you need special tools to align ream it and possibly spot face after installation to get the armature depth correct so the brush holder clear the commutator.
If you install the bearing kit correctly you won't have to touch the large Z bronze bushing in the starter mounting plate. This large bushing is rarely badly worn.
The starter brush cap replacement ball bearing is number 6201-2RS-1/2 ID. This is an industry standard part number 6201 with a double rubber seal and 1/2 inch internal diameter (ID). You want to ask for a "motor grade/fit" bearing
You can find them very cheap on ebay and if your handy can make your own spacer. They are a short section of 1/2 ID bronze bushing about .330-.340 long.
The small bearing used in the generator has a metric bore ID.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 01:15 pm:

Ron, The large bearings ARE usually a problem... They might not be worn significantly enough to affect the operation of the starter, but if worn much at all (even a few thousandts) they are a significant source of engine oil leakage. I worked on one that would leak a quart of oil in 80 miles and it was only .008" oversize. A new long starter bushing with modern oil seal took care of it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 04:26 pm:

Adam
I agree .008 is too much.
I mostly find by the time the bushing is pressed out of the mounting bracket, the thrust surface removed and pressed back in they need align reaming back to a correct fit.
Ron the Coilman


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