Anyone have some wood plans for these bodies?
if not, how about just some pictures with a tape measure?
Michael: I recently acquired a 1915 Coupelet that was re-wooded. The car needs full restoration so all of the wood is showing. There are some pictures on an earlier thread. When I return home (scheduled for this weekend) I would be happy to take close pictures and then you can let me know about specifics that you need.
I need to know how the cowl is supported and how the floor goes into the cowl around the pedals. So, pictures of the front area with measurements would be awesome! Thanks Barry.
Did Fisher make all Coupe and Coupelet bodies until sometime after 1920? Make that 1914 and later. What about the real early Coupes?
Page 478 of Bruce McCalley's book “The Model T Ford” [ http://www.mtfca.com/clubpages/book.htm ] listed two 1909 coupes with Wilson produced bodies. Page 487 listed car #14,800 Coupe Jan 12, 1910 with Pontiac [i.e. Beaudett] body. Page 487 car # 22,200 Apr 23 1910 KH [Kelsey-Hayes? not sure but listed as KH and different from W and P]. (That one was for Henry Ford). Note, other body makers are listed for the 1909-1911 era, in the top right hand corner of page 477. But in the listing of every 100th car, none of those additional body makers were noted as producing a coupe, although they may have. And Bruce also comments in that same area, “There may have been others [body makers] we might have missed.”
For the 1915-22 coupes the Ford Price lists sheds a little but not all the light needed. Reproduced below is section for the right door center hinge:
Note it clearly indicates that both Briggs and Fisher produced coupe bodies for 1920-23 and that the center hinge was different between the two companies (that also is clear on other parts). BUT, it does NOT clearly state what happens for the 1915-1919 coupe bodies. I.e. did the same hinge fit different body makers cars? (The same for the other parts – I never saw a body company mentioned on the 1915-1919 coupe parts). OR, does the statement below also apply to ordering parts for the Coupe bodies? From Bruce’s on line encyclopedia at http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc15.htm
JUN 26, 1915 Factory Letter
"Hereafter when ordering body panels for 1915 cars, please give both the car and body numbers. The body number will be found on the right sill just inside the front door. This number will be preceded by a letter which indicates by whom the body was made.
"The above information is necessary as panels for bodies made by our various suppliers vary somewhat."
Note the price list does not distinguish between the various touring or roadster body manufactures in the price list (except one or two minor places it calls out a part for the Wilson and Beaudett bodies). The price list assumes the person ordering will state which body manufacture.
I only incidentally track the Coupe information, as some of the parts are the same as the Centerdoor sedans. But another caution to look out for is Ford sometimes made small orders for items when his primary supplier was not able to produce them. An example of that is the 1930 or so Model A Ford coupe body. In theory Ford produced them all. But, there has been at least one sample found where Briggs produced the 1930 or so coupe body. Evidently Ford was behind and/or wanted to try something different.
Finally, I thought I had seen a reference for Fisher as a body maker for the 1915-1919 coupes, but I cannot locate that reference. Does anyone have a reference and/or a 1915-1919 coupe that is a know Fisher body or other body maker produced? If so, please let us know so we can have the information available in the future.
Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring (unknown body maker – wood replaced on the right front floor board riser where the number probably originally was located) and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.
The parts list on Bruce's CD lists door hinges for the Briggs body for 1915 - 1923 Coupes.
If someone has a known Briggs bodied coupe, especially one from around 1923, could you post the serial number of the body. I'm very curious to see if it ends in a B. Many of the 24 - 25 coupes have serial numbers that end in a B and we are theorizing that these were Briggs built bodies - but we are not sure.
My '23 coupe (early style w/suicide doors) has the number B379038 on the pass. side flooring, if that helps. I'm positive the last number is an 8, not a B.
Thanks. That's interesting because usually the serial numbers that start with the B are considered to be built by Beaudette. However, Beaudette was bought by Fisher on July 20, 1922. Fisher of course was owned by GM at the time and all Ford production stopped. This is from www.coachbuilt.com :
O.J. Beaudette supplied Ford with well over 2,000,000 bodies from 1910-1922 when the firm was purchased by Fisher Body Co.
Beaudette Production for Ford Motor Co.
1922 109,913 (until July 20)
If this is correct, then from 1923 on the B would signify Briggs. Now the question still remains if the 24 - 25 bodies are Briggs since they have the B at the end instead of at the beginning.
Thanks for all your hard work in tracking down information on the coupes. I just dabble in the coupes so hopefully I won’t mess up your research. For a brief 30 minutes I thought things were really coming together and we had enough information to make a reliable claim. But, the more I look at the information the more it sometimes looks like someone may have placed a few puzzle pieces from another puzzle in the puzzle box we are trying to figure out.
There are some interesting items that have already been shared. If you have time would please confirm the questions in brackets that I put in your original posting from: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/24578.html (I will also e-mail you a copy in a word document – I think it will make it easier to add your answers).
Dave shared: By Dave_Sosnoski on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 11:09 pm: I've been researching the 24 - 25 model year coupe which came out in August of 1923 (not the suicide door coupes). There seems to be two manufacturers of these bodies based on serial number locations. On most of the bodies there is a number stamped into the metal floorboard riser on the passenger’s side which usually ends in a B. I belive that these bodies were built by Briggs, although I don't have any hard documetation to support that yet. There are other coupes that have a number stamped into the wooden body sill just inside the passenger’s door. [For that last sentence -- please confirm that you are still only talking about the 1924-25 style coupe body with the hinges at the front of the door. Also confirm that the number does NOT have a letter in front or behind it.]
On one nice original 24 Tudor that I've seen this number started with an F. [Please confirm that the 24 Tudor number was located on the wooden body sill just inside the passenger’s door similar to the ones you mentioned on the coupe bodies.]
A lot of the documentation for the body parts has notes indicating "Ford Coupe Body" so it is possible that these bodies were built by Ford.
The 25 coupes with the steel doors have a B stamped into the inner door panel. This is the Budd Company. Budd was building all steel bodies at this time and was shipping the bodies as pieces (so more would fit into the box cars). They were then assembled at the manufacturer’s plant. As far as I know they were not building composite bodies like the Model T was. So I am assuming at this point that Budd was supplying the doors. [please confirm that it is an assumption that the “B” in the 1925 metal doors was for Budd or please let us know what reference(s) led you to believe it was Budd supplying the doors to either the body makers (whoever they were).
Hap typing again
Some other related sample postings : http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/32888.html ;; http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/27450.html
I believe if you can review and/or obtain a copy of the following factory drawings, they probably will help you and others in the future be able to tell which 1920-23 Coupe body was produced by Briggs and which was produced by Fisher. The hinges are different parts and drawings. So the drawings along with any change notices will hopefully provide the clues that are needed. While I do not believe these factory numbers will necessarily answer the original question (which body maker or makers produced the 1915 coupelet bodies, I do think they could answer the question for the 1920-23 coupes with the suicide style doors and possibly shed some more light on the 1915-1919 coupe body makers – if there are notes on the drawings and/or change cards associated with the drawings.).
From page 142 of Bruce’s Price List of Parts CD compilation in his FACTORY NUMBER LISTING:
Continued on page 143
From page 64:
From the Coupe body parts price list information on page 396 and 398 I could not locate the lower right hand door hinges. The lower left yes, but lower right – no. Another piece of the puzzle that is missing. It may not have been in the body parts price list, it may be misfiled under the 1924-27 coupe section (I don’t have time to check at the moment). Or the aliens may have stolen it (this has the potential for a low budget late night cable TV show). Anyway the information from page 397 of the parts price list showing Fisher and Briggs with different hinges for 1920-23 and NO body maker stated for pre 1920. (The later info is in another section listed as 1924-27 coupes).
Note when I ran a search it listed:
Briggs body Sep 23 8679A 1915-19 . 90 86779BX Dec 21 8679B 1919- But that is the last part of the previous listing and the first part of a second listing. When you click on it and go to the document it shows 1919-21 and it is a Strip – Door garnish finish, left
I may have missed it (not the first nor the last time I will) but I did not see any reference to Briggs coupe and 1915-20. I did see Briggs body, but it did not include the coupe. Note that in general the parts listings do NOT contain the parts that have only a factory number but do NOT have a part number. In the above listing only 4 items had part numbers the rest were factory numbers without part numbers. But I still think they could shed some light on the questions.
Anyway – hopefully folks are sending you pictures of the body numbers they are finding (that has been very helpful to me on the 1914-22 touring and roadster bodies – sometimes they miss the letter (that happened recently) but you can see it in the photo when you zoom in.
For the 1920-23 suicide door coupes the parts list clearly indicates that both Briggs and Fisher supplied bodies. It would not rule out an odd ball other supplier, but it does clearly indicate that both Briggs and Fisher hinges were used.
Again thank you for all your work at trying to clarify this information. Ford was NOT trying to hide it from the dealers who needed it to order the proper repair parts when there was a collision etc. So we (or someone) should be able to figure it out again today.
[By the way -- if this is just SPAM -- please let me know and I won't post things like this -- but will just think about it rahter than cluttering up the board].
Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.
Everything I'm referencing is in regards to the 24 - 25 model year closed cars - unless otherwise noted.
On the coupes, many of the cars have a number on the passengers side floorboard riser. All of these numbers seem to end in a B. The low numbers seem to be early bodies and the high numbers seem to be later bodies. I know of one coupe which was made before Jan 1924 which has a serial number of somewhere around 78,000. My cars are mid year 1924 and have numbers in the 187,000 - 220,000. I just emailed with someone with a 1925 model year car with a serial number up in the 300,000 range. So the numbers seem to have been assigned sequentially as the bodies were assembled. Of course that doesn't mean that they were assembled onto chassis in that order - but we may be able to make some generalizations based on this number.
I have one person who reported to me to have a number stamped into the wood sill just inside the passenger's door. This number is a very low number and also ends in a B. This particular body is constructed differently from the other bodies. I still don't know if it is a very early example or if it was made by another supplier. I have also seen other coupe bodies with numbers stamped just inside the doors, but at that time I was not researching the matter so I really didn't pay much attention to it. I can't recall if it was just a number or if it also included a letter. I do remember an unrestored 1924 Tudor which had the number just inside the passengers door, and that number either started or ended with an F. Again, I wasn't researching it at that time so didn't record anything. Just recently I had the chance to examine an unrestored 25 Fordor. This car had a number stamped into the sill just inside the drivers door. This number started with HP. I'm guessing that this means Highland Park - and I seem to recall reading somewhere that they assembled some Fordor's at the Highland Park plant.
I looked again at the parts listing last night. While there are hinges specifically for the Briggs and Fisher bodied coupes from 1915 - 1923, there are only one set of hinges for the 24 - 25 closed cars and it doesn't mention for what body make they are for.
I'm considering making up an online form for people to fill out to try to capture some of this information. With all the surviving cars, if we are able to collect enough information we can probably make some intelligent guesses as to what this all means.