Has anyone seen this before??

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Has anyone seen this before??
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By johna on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 07:03 pm:

HELP!! This body is going to be the end of me yet!! From the past threads you may know that i have been working on a '24(really a late 23 high hood) touring body. I have been trying to replace the front side panels and the wood. I have a set of wood drawings, and that part seems to be working for me. I went to fit the panels and they were 1/2" - 3/4" too long! I compared the new Rotlieb panels to the old ones i took off and found the new ones to be wider between the firewall and door, by 1/2- 3/4". They seem to be real close at the top, but off at the bottom. Is this normal and I am missing something or are they made incorrectly? The doors will not work at all with the new panels. I have checked the placement of the pillars against the prints and they are within 1/8th of an inch. look at the pictures and see if i messed up. old and new panelstop of new panelmiddle of new panelbottom of new panelbottom of old paneltop of new panelmiddle of old panel


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim ( www.ModelTengine.com ) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 08:10 pm:

I can't help with your problem, other than suggesting that you measure a few more times, cut and weld to suit your needs.

I am glad you posted the question, as it looks like I am very close to being in the same situation you are. This body was sold as a 21, but it has a low hood and a one man top. I'm guessing it's really a mid 23, but who knows?

Keep posting photos and solutions!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Denis Chicoine, MD on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 08:32 pm:

I believe there were a lot of left over parts used in the transition from the low hood, wooden firewall 1922 to the high hood, steel firewall late 23. I have an early 23 touring with steel firewall and low hood. Gator Gould showed me several parts (braces, etc) on it that were for the wood firewall vehicle. Perhaps yours is one of these "transition" vehicles. I'm sorry I can't go out and measure for several days. I've an appointment with a foot surgeon that will lay me up for the next week or 2.
Noel


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 09:19 pm:

How does the new panel(s) match up to the upper cowl panel?
Does the bead at the top (bottom in your picture) end at the correct location at the cowl towards the rear? (See Pic)
Does the panel match up correctly to the A-piller (rear)?

Don't do any cutting on the face of the panel. The flange at the firewall will be easier to fix than at the rear. If it is indeed too long, the bead termination at the firewall can be snipped back and a new flange turned at the front. (no welding) But don't do any cutting until you're sure this is the only problem area. How about height?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 09:27 pm:

Forgot to mention: The blue snip and bend lines are not to scale. You'll have to measure the original panel for the cut and bend line. This is just to show how to correct it without doing any welding.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 06:24 am:

John, I don't know where you are but I wish you were close enough to Ken or myself, or one of the other T'ers with some metalworking experience. I'd be happy to help you out if you were close. Can't tell alot from the pictures, but I'm sure it wouldn't be a big deal with it in front of me. I'm sure Ken would agree, most replacement panels aren't going to just fasten up without some tweaking. I've seen a lot of cars messed up because someone bought patch or replacement panels and didn't understand what needed bending, cutting, shrunk or stretched to make things line up.

Please be cautious, and if you can try and find someone knowledgeable near enough to you that would be willing to at least take a look at it in person. I don't mean to say you are less than knowledgeable, but if you need help you need help.
Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By johna on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 08:50 am:

I thought about modifing the panels to fit, but I thought that 3/4" was alot to be off for a manufacturer. If this the norm, i will cut and bend these to fit. if this is unusual for a rotlieb panel, i would bring it to thier attention. these were not cheep. I will check the cowl again. I was able to mate them togeather and get a bolt through the two at the windshield holes. It seems to be the same size as the old panel at the top, and gets wider as you go down.I will try and post a picture of it on the body. thanks
jojn


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Morse on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 10:19 am:

John, my Dad, my brother, and I just went through this in September with my Dad's '24 touring car. He had ordered the repro part from Howell's in Texas and it was also too wide by 3/4". The curve didn't look the same either, but that's how these repro pieces are. I called Howell's and they pulled their originals and compared with the repro and also discovered that they were making them too wide even though there is some variability in the originals. I gave them the dimensions from the original we had and they claimed they would make one "within the next day or two". They said this same thing over the next month and finally we could no longer wait so we gave up on them. (yes, I'm venting about this vendor so that others may learn from our problem- hopefully Rootlieb is better!)

As a result, we ended up cutting and welding on a piece from another body that was too rotten to be used otherwise. Didn't like to, but had to use a minimal amount of filler also. Came out looking good. My advice: use whatever original tin you can possibly use. Even if you need to use some body filler. Good luck!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Guy D Nelli on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 11:10 am:

on my 1915 r i have a left and right rootlieb fenders, both are not created equal. the radius between the two are off more than 3/4 of an inch. and no you cant bend them so there the same. and the result is that one fender is 1" higher off the ground than the other. guy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By johna on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 11:14 am:

Mike,
you jogged my memory with your post. I bought those panels from Howell as well. I bought the hood from rotlieb, and that fits perfectly. I must apoligise to the folks at Rotlieb, because their prodct was great. I have sent these photos over to Howell and an awaiting a response. i will keep you posted Rotlieb, if you are out there I am sorry about the mixup. you guys were great!
john


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 05:17 pm:

Just out of curiousity, how was the craftsmanship of the body maker in Sweden? I seem to remember seeing some suppliers selling his parts, when available, but they seem to cost more than the Howell's parts. Also, I was on the model T haven sight and saw they are selling sheetmetal claimed as "not from texas." Where is that metal sourced from?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By johna on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 06:09 pm:

Just curious, does anyone know what the dimention is from thr face of the firewall to the edge of the sheetmetal at the first door on the pass. side is? If I go by the wood plans I get 8 5/8", which is what i have on my body.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By RDupree on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 06:41 pm:

Richard,

I needed to convert a cutoff '16 touring car back to a real touring car. I bought the Swedish sheet metal from Snyders to replace the rear quarters and rear panel. The parts are beautiful and fit very well. I have a Howell's rear seat pan, and toe panel that I bought for the same car. The Howell's parts need 'adjusting' and trimming prior to use, but are far better than making the parts from scratch.

Ron Dupree


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By johna on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 05:32 pm:

I am going to mark and send the panels back to Ryan at Howells. He is the new owner and wants to make them right. I will keep you posted. Here is the email log :

Send them to
Howell's Sheetmetal
3514 Hwy 69
Nederland, Tx. 77627
----- Original Message -----
From: Jonaq@aol.com
To: ryan@fordor.com
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: Problem with 24' T side panels


Ok, I will mark them up and ship them back. Should they go to the address on your web site?
thanks
john

In a message dated 2/21/2008 11:17:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ryan@fordor.com writes:
That guy Bought those panels from the former owner. I told him I would fix the panels the way he wanted them but he refused to send them back he demaned new panels only. I am willing to help you anyway I can. The shipping should be about $25 I will pay the shipping back to you.
Thanks Ryan
----- Original Message -----
From: Jonaq@aol.com
To: ryan@fordor.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: Problem with 24' T side panels


Forgot the post:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Mike Morse on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 09:19 am:
John, my Dad, my brother, and I just went through this in September with my Dad's '24 touring car. He had ordered the repro part from Howell's in Texas and it was also too wide by 3/4". The curve didn't look the same either, but that's how these repro pieces are. I called Howell's and they pulled their originals and compared with the repro and also discovered that they were making them too wide even though there is some variability in the originals. I gave them the dimensions from the original we had and they claimed they would make one "within the next day or two". They said this same thing over the next month and finally we could no longer wait so we gave up on them. (yes, I'm venting about this vendor so that others may learn from our problem- hopefully Rootlieb is better!)

As a result, we ended up cutting and welding on a piece from another body that was too rotten to be used otherwise. Didn't like to, but had to use a minimal amount of filler also. Came out looking good. My advice: use whatever original tin you can possibly use. Even if you need to use some body filler. Good luck!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Guy D Nelli on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 10:10 am:
on my 1915 r i have a left and right rootlieb fenders, both are not created equal. the radius between the two are off more than 3/4 of an inch. and no you cant bend them so there the same. and the result is that one fender is 1" higher off the ground than the other. guy



In a message dated 2/20/2008 8:04:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ryan@fordor.com writes:
We have not had anyone say they have had a problem with these panels. They are made to the exact size of the original panels I have here.Some of the Ford bodys do vary though. If they are to long At the firewall edge I can rebend them for you if you mark where they need to bent to fit your body.
Thanks Ryan
----- Original Message -----
From: Jonaq@aol.com
To: ryan@fordor.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 4:33 PM
Subject: Problem with 24' T side panels


I emailed you some pictures of the side panels I bought from you, and have not heard back yet. I have since learned you had other problems with these. Could you tell me how we can get these right? Your company is starting to take a beating on the model t forum, and your one supplier is advertising sheetmetal "not made in Texas". I had a very nice transaction buying these, I hope you can help me. I have been struggling with these for months.
thanks
john aquina


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave_Sosnoski on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 07:25 pm:

I have had problems with Howells as well. Several years ago I bought a replacement floor for my 24 coupe. After talking with them on the phone they assured me they were exactly like the originals. They didn't come with the two dishes where the body bolts go through - so I paid $20 extra to have him make those, then another $20 to spot weld them in. When I got it those extra pieces were crooked by over 1/4" across the 2" piece. The hump over the rear spring and the hole for the battery were wrong, and it was missing a bead. I talked with him on the phone and he insisted that there was not suppose to be a bead there (funny that the ones they show on Ebay have that bead - and also have the dishes that he charged me extra for). I was told that was the way they made them, I bought it, I own it. It's now sitting rusting away in the attic of my shed because it is completely useless. I went out and bought a bead roller so I could make my own - the way it should be made.

Needless to say I don't think very highly of this supplier.

Dave S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Morse on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 09:34 pm:

I should expound on my earlier comments regarding the sheet metal piece my Dad ordered from Howell's. He ordered the piece probably a year ago, but we didn't start fitting the body pieces to the wood frame until July or August last summer and this is when I made calls to Howell's.

I would assume that Howell's changed ownership after that time because the guy I spoke with was no help. Our conversations were courteous enough from both sides and he told me to just throw the part in the trash and promised me he would make a new piece to the proper dimensions and send it no charge. Sounded good, but it was just never to be seen, even after 4 or 5 calls yielding the same empty promise.

Ryan, hopefully this was not you I spoke with and if that's the case then I apologize for my comments, not knowing Howell's changed ownership recently. It's unfortunate you inherited some of the "garbage" from the prior owner. I must have been dealing with the former owner when they knew they were selling and didn't care. Good luck turning around Howell's reputation for those of us with not so great experiences.

Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By johna on Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 06:10 pm:

Just an update: I started to figure out what need to be done to make these new panels work, so I could send them back to Howell. I stared measuring against the old panels and they were close, so why didn't they fit? I decided to bend the 1" section that tucks in behind the firewall and front piece of wood. This modification made the top fit the cowl pretty well, but the bottom was way off. I put the old panel in and noticed how much more plyable it was, maybe thinner guage metal? It seemed to have a stronger curve to the bottom of the panel than the new one. this would account for the new one being too long. I ordered a shrinker/streacher from harbor fright and am going to give that bottom part a little more of a curve, which should make the panel shorter. I will keep you informed as to the progress, thanks for all the help, hopefully this will get me back on track.

these new panels were supposed to save me time!!!


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