Wood Bands

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Wood Bands
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Fultz on Sunday, February 24, 2008 - 11:46 pm:

Should wood bands be soaked before installing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 12:03 am:

No. You may want to add a pint of ATF. It will ease grabbing.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Fultz on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 01:00 am:

Thanks Rick. Any type or brand as I don't want to ruin a good mag.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 01:40 am:

I use whatever ATF I have for the wife's car. ATF is really high detergent oil. The wood band liners come pre-soaked, probably in ATF.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By EDWARD R LEVY on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 01:58 am:

I may be changing bands soon & have always used kevlar. I find the idea of wood bands interesting. Anyone have thoughts on the Pluses or minuses of the wood bands.
Edward R. Levy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 03:46 am:

I don't know of any other maker, but Guinn bands are already oiled. You can buy just the wood linings alone from Guinn, or already installed on removable lug bands.

Regards,
Garnet

http://www.guinnbands.org/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark C on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 05:09 am:

Hi Edward,
I use my T as a daily driver and have a full set of bands on. They are money well spent in 2.5 years of driving in city stop start traffic I have only replaced the brake band once. Still dont know why it split maby Drilled the countersink too far but the new band is still going well and would not consider using another material. Jim Guinn also provides excellent after sales service I am in Australia and would only recomend wooden bands. I also use ATF with the oil they give smooth reliable operation.
Mark.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Scott on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 05:43 am:

Correct me if I'm wrong but is ATF Automatic transmission Fluid? How much ATF do you put in with the motor oil? Mark where abouts in Australia are you as I am in Bundaberg QLD
Andrew


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 09:51 am:

Not to hijack your "thread" Robert, but in reading the above with interest, it does prompt a question. I recently purchased a '23 touring from one of our club members (Carbon Canyon Model T's) who had installed wood bands. The car has a very tight and good running engine, however, not sure when it was rebuilt, or how many miles on it, or what type oil has been used since the rebuild. (Previous owner bought the car from the family of the original owner, and the car had been up on blocks in storage for 31 years.) I've been led to believe that with all of these "unknowns", it is best to use a non-detergent oil which I do. The wood bands work great, except that they are a bit "grabby" and do tend to chatter. So, as much as I'd like to use some ATF to reduce the chatter, I'm afraid to take the chance of stirring up whatever gunk may be in this great running engine. Anybody got any advice?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 10:01 am:

Yes Harold. Stop using non-detergent oil. Change to 5W-30 or 10W-30 and use at least a pint of Dexron III/Mercon ATF in your oil.

Stir up the gunk until the oil looks dirty then change it, replacing it with detergent motor oil plus ATF as before.

I'm sure this will start World War III.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 10:26 am:

Thanks Seth; I had the same thought about "WW3" as motor oil is one of those topics that seem to generate many differing opinions. The trick is to be able to separate the opinions by sorting out those of the "experienced" and those of the mostly prejudiced and not quite as "experienced". And that's the value of reading this forum regularly and in detail. I'm learning! I've come to value the opinion of those such as you who obviously have Model T blood in their veins as opposed to those that have only recently become afflicted by the Model T "disease". Maybe a good method is to try to get as many opinions as possible and then take an "average", huh? Thanks again Seth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 10:40 am:

LOL! No dang model T blood in MY veins - I haven't had my car three years and hope to sell it very soon, so I don't know s#!t. I have "fiddled" with engines and machinery for 40+ years, and I appreciate the fact that it means something to you.

Thanks!

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 10:44 am:

My experience is that if you open up a Model T engine that has been operated for even a couple of years on non - detergent oil there is a caked on coating of a paraffin - like waxy substance on every surface inside the engine. It is a really nasty thing to see, and is the reason that detergent oils were invented some 65 years ago and recommended ever since by every auto manufacturer.

The Model T oiling system such as it is works poorly even when in perfectly clean new condition. Detergent oil gives your T a fighting chance to last longer provided that you do your part by changing the oil every thouscand miles or so.

I would soak the wood band liners in ATF for a half day after riveting them to the bands. It can't hurt anything and might make them more pliable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By waunderin on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 10:51 am:

harold, when i did a valve clean up, i changed the oil. i used 10-40w. all of a sudden the engine freed up, cranks like a car should, and runs great. starts without having to recharge the battery, too. if your worried about freeing the sludge inside the enging, the simple solution is more frequent oil changes. john


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth H. Todd on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 11:02 am:

Harold, if you're unsure about the inards of your engine, drop the inspection cover (carefully, as the dips will be full of oil) off the bottom of the crankcase.
That way you can visually inspect the bottom of the engine and inside the crankcase to see what, if any gunk is in there.
You don't even need to drain the oil to do this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger K on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 11:07 am:

Seth,
"hope to sell it very soon"??
Bored with your Ford?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James H. Daw on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 11:16 am:

I just read an article -Trouble In Oil City- and it states in part that in the past ten years the oil companies have been reducing an important additive called ZDDP (zincdialkyldithophosphate). This additive is a lubricator works it's magic when the slippery oil film is displaced by high pressures like those tight spots between flat tappets and cam lobes. It goes on to say that severe valve train wear has been showing up in a wide spectrum of classic cars and has been reported in many club news letters, national magazines, and even the New York Times. Oil companies are aware of the problem and are working on it. It is a lengthy article, but sheds some good information.
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 11:27 am:

Roger,

I have two "antique" cars. The old "Ford" is interesting, fun to "improve", fun to show off, and not worth a darn to drive. My 44 year old Mini that I've had for thirty years deserves far more attention than it gets (because the speedster always wins that battle) and is far more capable in today's driving world and can even be driven in the rain without me getting wet!

Though I vowed long ago to never own a Ford, I now have but I'd far rather have the money than the car.

Maybe I'm just not old enough to appreciate "Henry's Masterpiece".

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Weir on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 02:23 pm:

James; I wont worry about the lack of zinc in the oil for a 'T' because the valve pressures are very tame compared with a Corvette or similar engine. Most of these engines idle faster than a 'T' will turn wide open.

Sincerely

Jim Weir


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 02:34 pm:

Seth,

You are missing the best part of T ownership - travelling with a group of T's on tour. Your T was not made to compete with modern traffic, but will feel right at home surrounded by its brothers and sisters.

Royce


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 02:36 pm:

Contact pressures in the valve train are very low in a model T engine, this is true. Contact pressures in the transmission (gear teeth) are another story.

Do without ZDDP if you like. Especially if you like needless transmission wear, which can be avoided at zero expense by adding cheap transmission fluid at every oil change.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 02:41 pm:

Yes Royce, you are probably right about that, but I think you know how I feel about trailers.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 02:54 pm:

Seth,

That's why I and my family and some friends are driving to the MTFCA centennial with our T's. How far are you from Centerville Indiana? There are groups driving in froma all over the USA. You could probably hook up with one of them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Monday, February 25, 2008 - 03:15 pm:

900+ miles. No top. July. Sorry, but it just ain't gonna happen. Riding in the trunk (boot) of the Mini for 900+ miles would probably be more pleasant.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark C on Tuesday, February 26, 2008 - 03:30 am:

Andrew Scott,
I have sent you a private message.
Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, February 26, 2008 - 09:09 am:

Ohh come on Seth,

You're just trading the car of the century for the runner up! and it's not like an 850 will out -run- a good speedster:-) Holding up traffic is what it's all about... you'll see 'em at the next set of lights and then you get to smile and wave... again!

Besides you can install a hood, unless you're arms are painted on... lol.

Cheers

Anthony


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Tuesday, February 26, 2008 - 09:21 am:

Sorry Anthony, but Sir Alec Issigonis is far more my hero than Henry Ford is or ever will be. I know - how blasphemous of me!

Holding up traffic is no issue. The issue will be the first time one of these fools cuts me off and I have to drive up into someone's lawn - or worse.

You need to send me some average current consumption information for a certain ignition system (unnamed for good reason) - remember?

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim ( www.ModelTengine.com ) on Tuesday, February 26, 2008 - 09:29 am:

If anyone is interested in my two cents:

I have started putting "diesel" oil in the engines I build here. The reason is that the 5w-30 or 10w-40 or 15w-30 or whatever weight you choose marked "for diesel engines" still has the ZDDP additive in it and it's designed to cushion the bearing loads in a high heat engine with up to 23:1 compression ratios. 5w tends to find every leak where 15w tends to stay in the pan better when the car is sitting in the garage. You need to choose the compromise between leaks and ease of cranking if you don't have a modern clutch pack in your car.

These oils also have the anti-foam agents in them (I think most multi visc oil does) that your T needs. No, the T did not have these when new and will run without them - but with them it should run longer with less wear if you use an oil with the additives in it. I used to add in 1 qt of ATF 20+ years ago, but I don't see the need with the new modern oils and would consider this a "fix" only used when needed. Maybe the wood bands need ATF, but kevlar and cotton I use seem to be ok without it.

Someone did a detailed study on here a while back about oil. I think it was Fred H. As he is "one of the heavy hitters" on here, maybe we should listen to what he has to say with an open mind?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, February 26, 2008 - 09:48 am:

I'll be onto that electrical system tomorrow Seth.

Just remember your T has a concealed fuel filler and burstproof door latches but they both have a non colapsible steering column!

At least both Ford and Issigonis were designers in their own right... there would be no compromise by comittee with either of them!

Cheers

Anthony


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Keefer on Tuesday, February 26, 2008 - 02:58 pm:

Seth,
Does TXM oil have extreme pressure ingredients in it. How much do you reccommend??

Noel


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Tuesday, February 26, 2008 - 03:29 pm:

Noel,

I don't know about the EP additives but it has more than 1% ZDDP. The ZDDP is an anti-seize that prevents "welding" when an oil film can't keep the surfaces separated.

If you use one pint (plenty) of D/M fluid in your oil change, you will boost the oil's ZDDP content by 12,500 ppm.

If your oil already has 8,000 ppm, the mix might be 20,000. Racing oils sometimes have up to 25,000 ppm.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Fultz on Tuesday, February 26, 2008 - 05:27 pm:

Back to the top, I got the bands in last night in about 3 hrs. They were tight going in but didn't want to pull the hoghead. Now for a new water pump.


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