Well....in this universe things do seem to even out eventually. It has really bothered me seeing that "1910" model T with the 24 fenders and the 26 engine sell for over $10,000.00 dollars. I looked closly at that car when it was for sale for $4900.00 locally. It did not seem like it was worth even that much to me.
I recently wrote the guy that "bought" it on e-bay for $10,300.00. His screen name appeared as though he was some sort of dealer. I asked him if the car was going to be for sale. Here was his reply:
Thanks for your inquiry but, I did not follow through on the purchase of the Model T. It had more items wrong with it than you could tell in the pictures. The wrong engine, wrong head lights, drivers front frender had holes rusted through, also welded all the way acrossed it. Rusted between the running boards and splash pans.
Have a nice day
There are no overprived Model T's, just buyers not willing to pay enough! This has been a public service anouncement from people trying to unload their cars for a lot more then they paid for them.
Post another link, I cant find it. I want to see the engine and headlight photos that fooled this guy. As crazy as the price was, it was not insanely high like some others. AND - a bid on ebay is a legally binding contract. If you bid, you should honor it. Unless it was one blurry photo of a 1910 T and he arrived to find out it was really toyota - he should pay what he promised to pay. No one held a gun to his head and forced that mouse click and I'm sure he could have gone and looked at it BEFORE bidding. The seller has paid fees to ebay, and probably ripped up potential buyers phone numbers thinking it was over, now he has to start all over again because someone wussed out at the last minute.
A bid on ebay is a legally binding contract if the product you are selling is the product you are describing. The seller in this case stated this car was a 1910 model T.
This car was a frame with 1924 fenders, a plywood platform, seats out of a horse drawn buggy and a 1926 engine. The only thing 1910 that existed is the 1910 title he had which had the 1926 engine serial number on it. I looked at the car in person. I know these things for a fact.
If I get a 1910 title for my Tudor does that make it a 1910? Wow, now that should be worth some money. It will be the only 1910 tudor in existance!
Tim, if you read Ebay's rules it elaborates a little more on that "legally binding contract". If the item is misrepresented, you're not bound. If you bid on an item and the shipping costs are exaggerated, you can report the seller and you are not bound. The seller can also have his feees returned in such a case by filing a non-paying bidder claim. That can be done without a strike against the bidder. I've had to do it once, because I found a problem after the auction end. It was an early Continental exhaust manifold, and it looked good until I offered to sandblast it before shipping. It had several cracks that weren't visible before, but showed up after the rust was knocked off. I contacted the buyer and explained the problem, and we mutually agreed to void the transaction. I refunded his money, Ebay refunded my fees, and we both left positive feedback. It's not wussing out when you take a man's word on the condition and then find he wasn't up front. If the seller is honest, he won't force the issue if the buyer feels he was misled.
Most folks don't have the funds or the time to drive all over the country looking at cars that they are bidding on. If the car is for sale for a definite amount, it's different...but if you go and look at it, then bid and win, you gotta make a second trip. Ok if it's just down the road a bit, but not practical if it's 500 miles away.
Ebay has the second chance offer program. You don't have to keep a list of potential buyers, they are there on Ebay's system for either 60 or 90 days. If the buyer don't follow through, all you have to do is click and offer the car to the next highest bidder.
Not meaning to sound like I'm floggin you, because I'm not. Just want to make the point that we don't know the particulars of the car other than the pictures and description that represented it. There might be a lot more to this than what you think. However, you might be right as well and the buyer bid while surfing Ebay under the influence of too many of his favorite beverages. Woke up the next morning wondering what he did last night
It was billed as a 1910, the state says it is a 1910 with that title. Regardless of that, the people that looked at the photos and posted on here ripped that car apart. They pointed out every flaw visible in the photos including the items that "voided the contract". The bidder saw the same photos. So is he blind, or did he have bidders remorse? He should have done his research prior to bidding. If you bid like this at a real car auction, you'd be sued to complete the deal.
You can be sued for about anything, but prove to the judge you bought a car advertised as a 1910, with an obvious goofed-up title (doesn't match the car), that is in fact a pieced-together car of far less value than the car it is titled or was advertised to be, and the plaintiff is just pissin in the wind.
Tim, the forum members you referred to are people who already own T's and have some acquired knowledge about them. The buyer trusts the seller to at least know what year his own car is! I don't know the buyer, but we should give him the benefit of the doubt that it is possibly his first T purchase and was expecting what was advertised. Just because there are T experts on this forum don't mean the bidder is one, and it sure don't mean he is blind, remorseful, or stoopid either. He may have genuinenly thought he was bidding on a 1910 (the owner says it is, title says it is), and being a novice with a fistful of dollars thought it was a bargain if he's seen other 1910's sell.
A "real car auction"? You're talking about an auction where you are standing beside the car and have been able to see for yourself what it is. Live auction sales can't tell you a car will run and drive, if it don't. They can't represent a 1920 with a 1910 title either, without getting into deep doodoo with the DMV. If it is disclosed BEFORE the sale, then yes, but trying to hide it is where the problems start. Just like rebuilding wrecks. I did it for several years and as long as there are signed and notarized documents stating that the vehicle is being sold as a reconstructed vehicle and the buyer is aware, you're in the clear. If that car ends up in the hands of an individual in the next 10 years and is not told that it has been totalled, he can force the seller to buy it back. All the way back to the last person to own it who cannot produce those documents. You can sell a lot of things and misrepresent them, but I think most states now have laws in place that protect a buyer when it comes to blatant misrepresentation of a vehicle with a title.
Sellers on Ebay that aren't up front with everything a buyer might want to know about a vehicle deserve losing their butts on a no sale. Maybe next time the seller will tell the truth about it and not think after the buyer has driven umpteen hundred miles he'll just decide to take it anyway. It is better for a seller to not say anything, than to mislead a buyer. Aution listings should hold up in court as evidence the car was misrepresented. I know email copies do.
My TT was listed by Model T Haven as a 24, and I bought it as that thinking if anyone would know a T, it would be a T dealer. Lord knows I didn't know it wasn't correct. I've fooled with a lot of old cars, but this is only my second T and first dealings with a T truck. Before I had ever went and picked it up, I learned that there was no closed-cab in 24. I was trusting the seller to be up front and knowledgeable enough about his own vehicle to at the very least advertise the YEAR correct. I wasn't mad about it, didn't care really. Even when I asked Mark why it is advertised and titled as a 24 (and he stopped replying to my emails). But, if I had cared that it is actually a 26 (engine and tranny is anyway) with a 24 title, I don't think a court in the country would have disagreed had I balked on the deal.
No hostility toward you Tim This is a discussion forum, and we're discussing. I'm typing all this in the same manner I'd speak it if we were sitting around a table in a diner. I don't want to sound like I'm arguing with you, but a person can't just throw some pictures up on Ebay and call it an apple when it's really an orange painted red. Even if he has an official document that says it fell of an apple tree. You aren't bound by any contract if the seller misleads for the purpose of profit. The contract goes two ways. The seller broke any contract that could exist, before the auction ended. I can't believe, of all people, one of us would stick up for a seller that tried to pass that car off as something it's not.
I feel like I need to pick up the tab now for breakfast, just so there's no hard feelings!
Below is a copy and paste from ebay motors polocy:
eBay Motors Vehicle Protection Programs
Buy a vehicle confidently with eBay Motors free protection programs. Get information on all of eBay Motors vehicle protection programs, or get details below.
Vehicle Purchase Protection – Your vehicle purchase is protected for up to $20,000 or the vehicle purchase price, whichever is lower.
Condition Guarantee by Seller – Sellers of these items guarantee that the vehicle’s condition is accurately described. If it is not, the seller will fix the problem free of charge.
I would say that this seller got off easy. He could have been forced to make this car a "true 1910" lol
Pretty cut and dry. I would bet that he'd just choose to take the easy way out and let the buyer go on his way, don't ya think?
"I recently wrote the guy that "bought" it on e-bay for $10,300.00. His screen name appeared as though he was some sort of dealer."
This leads me to believe that this was not his first automobile. Again, the photos were in the ad, and they showed the truth - before the auction ended - regardless of the text.
Tim, can you please re-post the photos?
OK I have asked this question before,never got a answer,and i bet eveyone has a different opiniion, what makes a model T a certain year. Is it the year on the title, the fenders, the lights,the body, what makes it a certain year
My opinion: In my mind it depends on the vintage of the parts. If I were buying a 1910, I would expect to see correct spindles and axles, a correct open valve engine block, square transmission cover, correct springs, and a correct frame. If I were buying a 27, the same rules would apply but admittedly the parts to make a correct 27 are more plentiful. If the car was claiming to be a trophy winner and priced as a trophy winning correct car, my inspection would go deeper to determine if the casting dates are in line with the serial number. On the other hand, if someone wants to sell me a drivable and properly titled 1910 Model T for $1000, I don't think my inspection would be as detailed.
In the eyes of my secretary of state office, the engine is what determines the year of the Model T car. (In newer cars, it is the VIN) If I have a cylinder block that has a 1910 serial number with 1927 casting dates, they will call it a 1910. This is because they know Ford agencies and others legally re-stamped the serial number when replacing the engine.
So, I see two standards. One is established by my state government, the other is established by Bruce's book and other resources. In terms of the hobby, I think we rely on the experts in our hobby and not the government to tell us if there are enough parts on the car to truly make it the year that is claimed.
Model Ts are generally called by their style or model year, not year of manufacture. If a car's engine's serial number is from, say, May of 1917, and the preponderance of its parts are from that general timeframe, it can quite correctly be called a '17 even though it may have, say, later fenders. As a general rule, changed parts that have a marked impact on the car's appearance are accounted for in the car's description: for example, "1917 with later one-man top and windshield." Changed parts that don't impact the overall appearance generally do not need acknowledgement in a casual description, and this includes the engine. Of course, an attempt to sell the car requires an "official" description, and in that case you'd have to say something like "1917 with 1926 engine."
Example #1: Engine assembled June 1915, frame 1920+ (channel runningboard braces), 1920's demountables, all other parts correct for late '15--car should be called "late 1915".
Example #2: Engine cast December 1914, assembled January 1915, body has flat dash and no cowl as in 1914, flat billed front fenders and flat rears--car should be called a "very late 1914" because the '14 style year carried over into early calendar 1915 because production of the new body was held up somewhat.
In most other years, a car built in January would be called by the calendar year since Ford's fiscal years and model (style) years both began in August. Early on, I think it was more like September or maybe even October that began the "new" year at Ford.
Example #3: Engine assembled July 1924, frame, body, top, and chassis all date from mid 1912: the car is a "1912 with '24 engine".
An automobile title is a legal document. If a person purchased a Model T that indicated on the title that it was a 1910, then that is what it is in the eyes of the law, no matter what we might think. If a novice buyer, purchases it in good faith as a 1910 and then, turns around and sells it in good faith as a 1910, then, as far as he is concerned, he is selling a 1910. He does not have to educate himself and do the research we do to determine what is correct or incorrect. He is protected by the legal document he has saying it is a 1910.
It is almost a certainty that every Model T has incorrect vintage parts that were put on by prior owners over the 80 to 100 year life of the car, but whatever the title says, that is what the law recognizes. If this were not the case, every vintage car transaction could be contested by any buyer with buyers remorse, because of the loophole created, if the car did not have ALL original parts vintage to the precise year shown on the title. Unfair? Yes, but that is the law and why we must do our research and be sure of what we are buying before commiting to a binding contract.
While common sense tells me that the title is not always right, I must agree with Tim (www.modeltengine.com) that, since the legal title specifies this car as a 1910 (even though we all know that it is not), then that is what it is and no matter how incorrect the car may be to us, the purchaser should have done more legwork to ensure the car was what he wanted before pledging to buy it. He has the option of appealing to ebay, but all the seller has to do is show the ebay arbitrators the legal title proving that it is a 1910 and the seller will win. Of course the seller will probably end up having to take the buyer to court to get a ruling in his favor, but in the eyes of the law, the legality of the transaction would be backed up by the title and the seller would probably win unless the judge could be swayed by the testimony of expert witnesses attesting that it was not a 1910. Jim
Well Tim (Foye, not Jeandrevin), that changes my perspective altogether. I totally agree with your opinion if the guy knew T's and knew that what he was bidding on was not what was described. Like I said, I was only giving the guy the benefit of the doubt, but without doubt he gets no benefit. Still, not his first automobile doens't make him a T expert. I've owned many 20's and 30's cars, but can't differentiate between a pieced together 1910 from one that is totally original and untouched without some kind of reference. Nevertheless, you are right that he could have done some homework before bidding it up that high. Thanks for taking my thoughts as they were intended, only discussion.
I'll take my crow southern fried, with milk gravy and a biscuit
All you have to do is read the e-bay vehicle buyer protection policy. You will see that you are mistaken. It clearly states that the vehicle has to be as described. This vehicle was described as a 1910. That simply was not true.
If you have a title with a serial number that belongs on a plymouth and have it titled to a chevy, that does not make your chevy a plymouth, it makes you carless when you get pulled over on a traffic stop. That title is simply not an accurate title which makes it borderline fraudulant in my opinion. You can't have a 1910 title to a car that wasn't built in 1910 out of parts that are not 1910 parts. If you could, I would title mine as a 1850 Tudor. It would be priceless! It just is simply not correct or true that the title dictates what the car is when the title is wrong.
My speedster is a 1919 on the title, because the engine (2,85x,xxx) is a 1919. The VIN, on the other hand, is 5,600,095 - from a 1922.
When I sell it, I dang sure will call it a 1919 and not a 1922 - because that is what the title says.
I rather doubt there will be any problems - speedster owners aren't nearly as picky.
The Model T uses the engine no. as the official identification no. Unless this car has a 1910 engine no, it would be officially listed in past records as a 26. It would be no problem proving this. When changing engines, the original no. must be stamped on the new engine.
My hypothetical Model T roadster has a 1922 frame and 1922 engine. The body was rusty so I replaced the sheet metal with Rootlieb, Howell, and Cubel products. I bought new wheel hubs, new rims and brake drums, and I had the wheels professionally respoked with balsa spokes. I got a new interior, and my seat springs are also new . The car looks great with the VietNam made Firestones. The new Brassworks radiator cools like a charm, the electronic ignition is flawless, my kevlar brakes stop on a dime, and I'm happy with my car. Now, 87% of this car's weight consists of newly manufactured non-Ford parts made in the last decade. Is this a 1922 Ford or a 2008 assembled vehicle?
If you say assembled vehicle, then I have to get a windshield wiper setup, second tail light, turn signals, brake lights including a high mount, seat belt, electrify the parking lamps, provide bumpers, etc., to legally operate it on America's roads as a 2008 car. Fortunately I am exempted from air bag laws.
At what point do our restorations become re-creations and no longer vehicles manufactured at a specific date? I think the eBay guys are doing precisely this, but where do we draw the line?
When Ford re-created the 1914Ts for the centennial, they were careful to title them as 2003 vehicles. This means they won't be antiques until 2028.
hehe...looks like a can of worms has been opened
We agree on the fact that it is definitely not a 1910 and that the title is wrong, but until the title is corrected, the car is a 1910 in the eyes of the law and the eyes of a novice who knows no better and that novice must be protected by the law from his, excuse the term, ignorance.
There is a reason there are so many hoops to jump through in order to title a vintage car and that is to ensure the title is correct. Once the title has been reviewed and registered with the State DMV, that becomes the car's legal identity and official description, recognized by law, until it is revised. Now if the title is forged or fraudulent in some way, then that is a whole 'nother can of worms.
Since I am no lawyer, my assumptions are, of course, based upon personal opinion and could be totally wrong, so I would love to hear from a lawyer on this.
My thought on what year it is has always been "what's it look like". My first speedster was made up of at least two parts of every year there was for a T. It had a earless 26 frame and rear end, 24 engine, an 11 windshield and firewall, 14 fenders, 13 hood, 15 light rims, a 12 radiator, and most of the ballasters from my house's staircase were used to make the body. I called it a 15 because that is what it looked like from across the parking lot.
Did this guy expect a brand new concourse restored 1910 touring car for $10k?
the seller had this in writing - before the end of the auction:
UP FOR AUCTION IS A 1910 FORD MODEL T, 2 SEATER W/OVERHEAD CANOPY. IT HAS THE TWO KEROSENE LAMPS IN FRONT AND ONE RED KEROSENE TAIL LIGHT ON THE BACK. IT HAS THE ORIGINAL HAND CRANK TO START, AS WELL AS A 6 VOLT SYSTEM W/NEW BATTERY. IT RUNS GOOD, DRIVES GOOD & LOOKS GOOD...IT WAS USED AS A PARADE CAR IN FLORIDA. THE ENGINE AND UNDERCARRAGE ARE CLEAN. THE TIRES HAVE SOME WEAR, BUT ARE IN GOOD CONDITION, AS ARE THE WOOD SPOKED WHEELS. IT HAS NEW UPHOLSTERY ON CANOPY & BOTH SEATS. HAVE FUN WITH THIS OLD TIMER! ***MILEAGE ON THIS VEHICLE IS UNKNOWN & I INSERTED 500 MILES, IN ORDER TO GET IT LISTED. ***GOOD LUCK & HAPPY BIDDING! ***SERIOUS BIDDERS ONLY...DON'T BID IF YOU CAN'T PAY. ***CHECK OUT OUR OTHER AUCTIONS
On Feb-10-08 at 21:17:54 PST, seller added the following information:
***DUE TO A RECENT EMAIL I RECEIVED, THAT QUESTIONED THE VALIDITY OF THIS CAR BEING A 1910 MODEL T, I HAVE DECIDED TO ADD THIS NOTE TO MY LISTING. I PURCHASED THIS CAR AS A 1910 & I HAVE A VALID, CLEAR TITLE TO BACK THIS UP. I AM NOT AN EXPERT ON THESE CARS, SO I DON'T KNOW IF THIS CAR IS ORIGINAL OR IF IT HAS OTHER PARTS ON IT FROM A DIFFERENT CAR OR A DIFFERENT YEAR. I AM SELLING THE CAR ON EBAY & BEING AS HONEST AS I CAN BE. IF THIS IS A PROBLEM FOR YOU AS A BIDDER, THEN PLEASE DON'T BID!
The winning bidder: kolars_car_barn( 771Feedback score is 500 to 999)
After seeing the photos again, I can see why he backed out. The plywood body, the headlights off a ?, 14 sidelights, 15 hood, honeycomb radiator, 30x3.5 tires, the GENERATOR, and the home made ignition panel were very misleading. I say there is no way he could have known that this car might not be 100% original... It was a very deceptive auction. YEAH RIGHT!
Here are more worms.
Cars from overseas that do not meet emissions and safety regulations are welcome here as long as the TITLE says they are 25 years old or older.
My '93 Mini-Cooper was imported as a '71 by the guy that I bought it from. All he had to do was obtain a VIN from a wrecked '71 model and affix the VIN plate over the original.
Was it really a '71 model? No, of course not. Why is this "legal"? Because money talks and BS walks - the DMV in New Jersey where he lived when he imported it was happy as punch to get the tax and registration money. So was Georgia where he lived when I bought it from him. So also was Louisiana, twice - when I bought it from him and when I sold it locally to it's new owner.
Did I care that there was a 22 year discrepancy between the title and the YOM? Of course not - I was happy to get to own and drive something that I otherwise couldn't and I was able to insure it as an antique for some $75 per year.
Yep Tim, again I have to agree with you. Point taken, I spoke out of turn on this one. I need to wipe the egg off my face so I can see to eat my crow
Seth, my '78 Citroën 2CV came into the US as a '65 in just the same way. The guy who brought it in referred to it as a '65 with some '78 parts. The '65 was the chassis number plate and the '78 parts were the rest of the car. As he put it, "when you restore one of these, you have to start somewhere!"
IMO the seller is fully knowedgible that this automobile is not as advertised. I'm amazed that EBay isn't more aggressively cracking down on this type of nonsense. This bogus effort ranks right up there with the celebrated 911 Pentagon Flag and the Blessed Virgin Mary Cheese Sandwich.
I have purchased two "T's" in the past 18 months. Since I live in Southern California and the cars were in New York and Chicago, I had both cars appraised by an independent appraisor. Yes this cost me some bucks. The monies were well spent and the appraisal reports were very well done with pictures and when possible the history of the car. On another occassion I had another car, non "T", appraised in New York by an appraisor that the dealer had lost prior sales because of his,the appraisor's, report. The appraisor spent in excess of 5 hours going over the service records, placing the car on a lift to inspect the under carriage ,etc. I decided to purchase the vehicle with his recommendation. The vehicle was selling for $19500.00 and appraised for $24,500. Ended up as a great car for me and was everything I expected. The point is this: if you can not see the vehicle "up close and personal", have a professional do it for you. Afterall that is what you are paying him for. When I bid on a vehicle on E-Bay I always ask the sell the question if he would allow to have the vehicle inspected at my cost. Obviously if the answer is no I move on.
Good information Tom. One of the good things about this forum is we have fellas all over the place and most would be willing to drive a few minutes to give a once over. Yeah, I know we're not professional appraisers, but just having another T enthusiast take a look can be a big help.
When I was active on the hotrod forum, there was always posts asking if anyone lived in a certain area for that reason. They also did "relays", or moving parts, especially heavier stuff, across the country to save on shipping. When fella #1 happened to be driving a distance toward the destination, he would hook up with fella #2 and drop it off. Then when he was going further in that direction, he'd carry the part and meet another member. It might take 2 or 3 months and go through several hands, but guys got engines, transmissions, rearends, etc. cross country for little or no cost.
I've been watching for a T, black era, open car for months. Everything I've run across has been either high dollar restorations (or the owner thinks they are) or frankly, junk. I'll keep looking, eventually a decent car for a fair price will turn up. I've been watching this board for a long time, and e-bay too, just to see what they seem to be selling for. Thanks guys, this board has kept me from getting too anxious and buying the wrong one, I know the right one will turn up..... patience, patience
Jim, in California, a vehicle title document is not conclusive as to ownership, it creates only a presumption of title which can be overturned by evidence to the contrary. Although my point does not directly address the issue of what constitutes a particular year car, it shows that a title document is certainly not the gold standard you believe it to be. The Uniform Commercial Code governs the sale of a Model T Ford. Whether or not there is a breach of express warranty as to year, UCC would look to usage in the trade. So if a dispute arose re year of manufacture, a court would likely consider expert testimony as to what makes up a 1910 in the eyes of the hobby. Makes sense to me.