Egad, what slow work!

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Egad, what slow work!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 11:10 pm:

Sandblasting a TT frame. I spent a couple of hours on it this afternoon. I used up all five bags of sand I had on hand, got about a third of the thing done, and still have to finish the bottom. Then I have to turn it over and do the top. As the old saying goes, everything takes longer than you think it will.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Menkhaus on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 11:40 pm:

I feel your pain bro' ...

I borrowed a whopper of a angle grinder with about an 12" twisted wire brush on it, and did all the flat spots that I could get to first on my T frame a few years back, then I fired up the sandblaster (borrowed from the same friend) and used it to get into the corners, and to go over the spots I hit with the grinder. The grinder/ wire wheel is waayyyy faster, but obviously can get into the tight spots. Are you 'recycling' the sand? I built a little box out of 3X8 sheets of plywood, and put down a tarp to try to catch most of the sand and reuse it..it worked fairly well...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel (Indiana Trucks) on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 11:50 pm:

I set up one of those 10X20 pipe tent type garage things to do my 18 foot long truck frame but a 10X10 worked for the T frame with some plastic tarps hung from all 4 sides and one for the floor. I set a box fan in one corner to suck out some of the dust so I could still breath and see. Only used part of a bag of sand that way for the frame and we did several other parts in there. Just tie it down good because the wind will mess things up real fast.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 12:07 am:

Recycling the sand is a good idea. My blaster holds 300lbs. of sand and can go through that in less than 10 minutes. It wouldn't take long to go through a ton of sand if it wasn't reused.

As far as time; I attribute that to Quantum Physics. Age seems to warp the concept of minutes into hours, days into weeks. Seems like last week it was January.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 12:26 am:

Ken,
I wish it were Quantum Physics, but what it is is our internal clock slowing down. When we are young it runs very fast and it feels like forever from one Christmas to the next. As we age the clock slows down, and time goes by faster relative to our body--So tax time comes right after you paid them! :-)
T'ake care,
David D.
PS we just use a large tarp held down with fence posts on the edges, seems to keep most of the sand around. And the tarp keeps the grass from growing in that spot! Heh Heh Heh
Oh, and by putting other parts needing blasting around, they get a little cleaning--kinda like a head start.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Weir on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 12:50 am:

David; The older we get the faster it turns, like when we get to the end of the toilet paper roll.

Sincerely

Jim Weir


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 04:38 am:

Bob, I sure hope you weren't breathing that dust in that tent! Silica will kill you. Crushed sand is silica.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel (Indiana Trucks) on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 02:34 pm:

Ray,

I use the black stuff and a mask. It works better than the white stuff anyway and is not as bad on you but you still pull it out of your ears a week later! LOL

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 09:20 am:

Steve,
Recycling the sand is a great idea.
A BIGGER question I have is.....
"What type of sandblaster are you using?"
If you're using a $17. Siphon feed type sandblaster, it WILL take you all day.
Go borrow, or buy a Pressure Pot type and it should only take a couple of hours to be completly down to clean metal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 11:53 am:

It's a pressure blaster, but one opinion was that I was probably mixing too much sand into the airflow. Tomorrow is supposed to be a warm day (over 50), so I'll get out there and try it with the sand turned down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 01:52 pm:

Good thought,
Too much sand will not let it work correctly.
Also, is the nozzle worn and do you have enough shop air supplied to the tank?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 10:54 pm:

Good thought,
Too much sand will not let it work correctly.
Also, is the nozzle worn and do you have enough shop air supplied to the tank?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By BRENT in 10-uh-C on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 12:26 am:

Steve, my opinion is probably a little different than others but since we do about 10-12 frame-up restos a year on average, I kinda have a feel for this "terrible task" and understand your agony. Recycling sand IMO is not a prudent idea due to the labor involved and the added wear & tear on equipment usage due to the less effective media. I guess that is why our sandblast area looks much more akin to a beach rather than a back yard.

First off, even though we use a medium-fine grit media, it still shatters upon impact at about 70 lbs air pressure. Each time the sand is re-used, we find it loses it "sharpness". If it isn't sharp, all it does is bounce off of the metal without cutting or being effective. Taking twice as long to do something to save money on sand yet at expense of electricity or equipment wear is not smart IMHO. The other issue is the labor it takes to screen the dirty media. We use a 1/8th nozzle to keep air velocity up and it is very easy to have foreign matter plug up your nozzle if the recycled media is thoroughly screened. Thoroughly must be emphasized! This stuff that plugs up the tip can be chunks (large or small) of grease, old paint chips, dirt, grass clippings, bugs or anything, ...and when you must stop, take off your gear, loosen the nozzle and "back flush" everything, it becomes an aggrevation in a hurry.

FYI, we are paying $6.00 a hundred for sandblasting media and you can see my blaster size in this picture. I do apologize having to show it with a 'modern frame' but I trust you can focus on just the blaster and overlook the other blastphemy to see it is not a large one nor is it a small one either. Our compressor is totalled at about 15 horsepower and is about 50 cfm. My blaster consumes about 1½ to 2 bags of media per hour and it generally will take about 6 to 7 bags for a complete frame that is blasted to "white metal".

While I realize you are working on a TT frame, might I suggest you check your frame for straightness, squareness, and then re-buck the rivets after you have straightened it. While I consider myself a Rookie when it comes to Model T restoration, I found the frames on all three T's I have restored to be shaped much like the outline of the great State of Tennessee, --and with all three having a sag. I would guess that over the years the rough roads and a chain used to free the vehicle from muddy bogs have taken it's toll on many Model T frames. Straightening the frame and using heat (and water) to shrink the bottom chord back into tension is not difficult, --and heating and re-bucking the rivets does take some tools and effort but is well worth the effort IMO.

If you look in this picture you will see the heat discolored rivets. While we use a 3X Rivet gun and an arsonal of bucks that we have fashioned over the years, a bucking bar and a rivet set can be easily made by you or ordered from Snyders. A person needs about 6 hands to be effective at this, --or 1 or 2 friends to assist with torch operation, bucking bar holding, and hammer swinging but it can turn into a fun operation. While I probably went a little overboard restoring this frame, the outcome sure was pleasing when it came time to bolt the body on and everything aligned. Also, this particular frame was under a Depot Hack and I had more than one person make a comment about how firm this car felt when turning through a dip in the road as it didn't seem to flex as much.

I trust this gives you another perspective. Naturally, ...your mileage can, & will vary!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 12:47 am:

Brent, I know what you mean about frames needing repair. I have one that will someday be a roadster pickup, and I had to replace the front crossmember because it was cracked. It's been a few years so I don't remember exactly how we did it, but I think I had only one helper to do the rivets. When I dismantld the TT, I was delighted to find the frame tight, uncracked, and unbent. It should make a pretty solid truck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken - SAT on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 01:22 am:

"Each time the sand is re-used, we find it loses it "sharpness". If it isn't sharp, all it does is bounce off of the metal without cutting or being effective."

Perhaps but I prefer the used sand because of it's loss of "sharpness". I like it even more when it's nearly a powder. It's like soda blasting and gives a nice shine to the bare metal instead of the cratered "white" look. It also generates less heat on the panels. It's more apt to remove paint and rust than metal too.

I have no problem with particles getting through the sieve. What does get through is small enough to pass through the system. Since I degrease and pressure wash most items before blasting, there's no problem with grease either.

I can wait until my dedicated blast booth is completed. It will have an automatic recycler system built into the floor and back wall. As the media gets too small, it will automatically be pulled out through the dust vent. If it's heavy enough to fall through the floor, it's still good enough to use as blast media. Maybe more so.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 09:54 pm:

Well, with the arrival of warm weather (over 50) I went out and did some more blasting on the TT frame this afternoon. Thanks to Stan and all the others who made helpful suggestions. I made better progress and used less sand. Some parts of the thing are pretty stubborn, but another session or two should finish the job.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 11:26 pm:

Today I bought a new nozzle for the blaster and went
from this to this .
The sand shoots out with a lot more force and does a much better job. I may live long enough to finish this thing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 08:41 am:

I have a friend who does his sandblasting out in the woods. It is done in the shade with plenty of air where you can always stand upwind from the dust, and clean up is never a problem.He buys the sand from a company that sells it in bulk. It is dried.
I have used his set up and it works well.
Herb












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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 12:08 am:


Got the frame done Sunday. After Chickasha it will be time to paint the thing and start putting this baby back together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 03:01 am:

Steve,
I hope the bug's paint job wasn't in good shape before, as it won't be after! The sand really bounces off and blasts other objects not so nearby!
T'
David D.
PS Does this sound like it's happened to me?? Gee, what makes you think that???
:-) Hmm, maybe that should be :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Denny on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 08:08 am:

Steve,

Your comment about living long enough to finish... you won't if you don't use a respirator while sand blasting! Please tell me you just removed it for the photo.

Denny


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 08:54 pm:

The bug is a parts car, but it was safe anyway. There was enough wind to blow everything north. That's why I wasn't wearing the usual mask. I was upwind.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Morse on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 09:04 pm:

Steve, I'm glad you usually do wear a respirator. That can be some bad stuff for your lungs.

I also notice in your picture that the sand is light colored. You must be using something other than black beauty. Black beauty is pretty agressive stuff and was recommended to me over alternatives because it really cuts rust well compared to the others. Maybe this is why it has been such slow work? If so, I suggest that you might consider trying good old black beauty for those heavily rusted chassis pieces. Others here with more experience may want to offer their thoughts on my suggestion though. I'd welcome them so I can learn too!
Mike


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