Re-Title or Re-Stamp ?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Re-Title or Re-Stamp ?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Pawelek on Thursday, March 06, 2008 - 08:03 pm:

The original block on my '19 was not rebuildable due to a large rust out hole in the water jacket and I found another '19 block which I had rebuilt 4 years ago and I installed in the '19. My antique Texas lisence plates are due for their 5 year renewal soon and I have since the rebuild contacted my insurance about the different engine number so now the "VIN" number on my insurance card does not match the number listed with the state. Boy, do I feel like a dummy! Should I try to convince the state that swapping out engines is routine and try to get the new engine number changed on the title or should I grind off the serial number on the rebuilt engine and stamp with the original number that is on the title? None of this entered my mind at the time of the engine swap and now I'm in a pickle. Thanks in advance for any wisdom on this subject.......Michael Pawelek


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Thursday, March 06, 2008 - 08:06 pm:

Put the original block in the shed under a bench and keep it and not worry about all the technical stuff.If anything is said,produce the original block that is unusable.You have the car and the engine with the right numbers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Stanzione on Thursday, March 06, 2008 - 08:20 pm:

Michael,

I read somewhere that when dealers had to replace engines that went bad that the replacement engine was stamped with the original engines serial number either followed or preceded by an R indicating it was a reaplcement engine.

I have a 26 touring car that had this issue and I re stamped the "new engine" in this manner and left the title and insurance the way they were.

I will try to look back and find where I read this and let you know if I find it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, March 06, 2008 - 08:23 pm:

You in big trouble, Mikey.

You could cut the number section out of the old block, and JB Weld it onto the top of the frame rail, right side. Then you would have a number to satisfy whoever..

Or, you could get a set of big stamps and stamp it on the frame rail.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Thursday, March 06, 2008 - 08:31 pm:

I recently helped a man recover his stolen Model T. The first item of business was to show the police officer where the T's serial number was located. The second item was to read that number to the police officer. They matched and we were clear to recover the vehicle, rather than have it kept for evidence, until the trial date, which has not happened yet. Had they not matched the police would have kept the vehicle.

A few years ago, I changed my engine block and had the same concern. I took my 1927 Model T and the old engine block to the local Motor Vehicle Office, showed a State Trooper the number change and explained my problem.

I showed the State Trooper the frame number and asked that the frame number be put on the title, so I could change the engine back later. He gave me a slip of paper and for $10 I was issued a corrected title, with the frame number and no engine number listed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 09:42 am:

How about applying a layer of epoxy putty over the engine number and punch in the old numbers? You could shape the putty so it looks OK.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Pawelek on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 10:32 am:

Richard, Yes I could use some help with the process of stamping on the original numbers as I'm sure this has come up in the past with some of the original blocks not being usable and replacement engines used. Would an electric grinder as a start and then hand filing do the trick to remove the numbers and leave a smooth surface? Are there modern "stamp" sets where the numbers are the correct size and "font" to come close to the original Ford tools, or would it matter? I need to investigate further before I move on this so I do not cause problems for myself or someone else in the future.....Michael Pawelek


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 10:40 am:

The number stamp sets are available for a reasonable price.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 11:28 am:

I know it is slightly off topic but I do remember reading somewhere that when theives grind numbers off guns that a chemical can be used to find the impressions left in the metal that a person grinding cant see.
I aggree that in a case like James explained the right numbers are a good idea.
But a good detective,doing his job,useing that chemical to determine if the car was stolen and restamped would see another set of numbers,that could open a new can of worms.They could say you the owner must have stolen the car years ago.
That is why I would think keeping the orignal engine in a safe place would be a good idea.
Could a person stamp the second set of numbers on the engine or car chassis and do the same job?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 12:22 pm:

Additional comment to Tom Stanzione's post.

I too recall reading the same information - Ford did instruct dealers to stamp replacement blocks with the original motor number. I believe it is mentioned in one of the Service Bulletins. Not sure about the inclusion of "R" for replacement but you are probably right. I will look tonight in my Ford Essentials Service Bulletin book when I get home.

Erik Johnson
Minneapolis, MN


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Scherzer on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 12:31 pm:

When I purchased my 23 TT the engine in it was a later style 26/27 with wide pedals and support bolts on the hogshead. After talking to the second owner that had purchased it from a grain elevator business said the engine was shot and the Ford garage replaced it with the only engine they had which was the 26/27 style. They did stamp the new engine with the 23# to match the title. During restoration I rebuilt a correct style 23 engine which I removed the number and restamped with the one used on the truck and never had a problem with retitling or insuring since.

Since dealing with the insurance company might be easier then working with the state. First call your insurer and try and explain the problem and see if they will make the change to the correct number and mail you the new insurance document. Fax some pictures of the title, block #s and any related information they may want. If they won't do it then I would cancel the insurance on the 19 with the incorrect number wait a week and then call and insure the 19 with the correct number. This then will have you with the two documents showing the same number to show the state DMV. I have found most insurance companies easy to deal with on matters like this. After all you are making it correct as it should have been. Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deputy Dog on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 01:19 pm:

Years ago, I was a Deputy Sheriff. We used a battery charger clamped to a cotton ball, soaked in sulfuric acid to raze serial numbers on stollen guns and cars. The molocules were compressed by the original stamp, and the old number appears as dark impressions.

Here is an inside secret. Don't tell car theives this though. If you weld over the old number before grinding it smooth and restamping, the old number is gone forever! Can never be raised again.

Deputy Dog


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stauffacher on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 01:40 pm:

Michael,

Since most DMV types are used to seeing a VIN stamped on the body, I have opted to just stamp the title's engine number on the frame. It just lowers the agravation factor by not having to explain how Ford identified the T and gives the DMV what they expect. The less you have to explain to DMV, the better, especially when dealing with any car over 50 years old!

Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Stanzione on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 10:44 pm:

Michael,

Bruces Book, I believe page 501 says they stamped replacement engines with the original serial numbers when the blocks were replaced. I know I read somewhere about the R and will keep looking for where I saw that.

Maybe if Bruce is reading this he can add to this point.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ken parker on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 10:44 pm:

In Texas, the inspection stations look at the insurance paper to see if YOU have insurance. I have yet to have anyone check a single VIN number against my insurance papers. I did one Wednesday. He asked me what the VIN number was so I told him. I asked if he wanted to know where it was. No, but I showed him anyhow. Ten minutes and $14.00 later that T had a sticker. All he wanted to do was watch me crank it.

I have a Suburban that I bought new 17 years ago. Dealer gave the state the wrong VIN number (it has a code for a pickup). Geko insurance company convinced me to not change it! That's 15 inspections ago. You figure.

Yesterday, 55 minutes in line and 10 at the counter. Bought antique plate for T. It is good for 5 years and costs $40.00. I had insurance paper but they didn't ask for it. She did want to know if it was outside because they wanted to see it. Told her I would bring it back one day because she had the plate in her hand that made it street legal.

I think y'all are having something connected with that cold white stuff on the ground that's messing up your DMV's. We don't use them down here except to take drivers tests.

Ken in Houston


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken - SAT on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 12:15 am:

"I have yet to have anyone check a single VIN number against my insurance papers."

I suppose it depends on where you are in Texas. I never had a car inspected that they DIDN'T check the VIN number against the insurance slip. That's about the only thing they do check when I go in. He asks if the lights and horn work and writes out the sticker and takes my money.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ken parker on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 10:38 am:

Ken,

I'm sure you are correct. It stands to reason that they should (and probably did) check it. I just never was asked. I tend to remember the negative events sooner than the positive!

However, when inspecting, title transfering and obtaining plates, Texans are dealing with inspection stations and court houses, which are probably extensions of, rather than the DMV directly. It sounds as if in some other states they are dealing with DMV/state troopers directly.

I am just relating my experience as of this week in a large county in Texas and I am sure your results may vary depending where you are.

Ken in Houston


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