Cracked Drum Club

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Cracked Drum Club
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim ( www.ModelTengine.com ) on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 05:04 pm:

I joined a new club today. Yup, I'm not a member of the "cracked drum" club. I tore apart my fordor today. Something felt wrong, it didn't run well anymore and there was a major loss of power on the last drive. I found this and several other "problems" inside. Some from age, some for other reasons. The previous owner and I must have had allot of fun driving this, because between the two of us we wore it out!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim ( www.ModelTengine.com ) on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 05:06 pm:

typo - "now a member" not "not a member" - must be oldtimers disease setting in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 05:35 pm:

Glad im not the only one .i was gonna just buy a rebuilt trans but geeze kinda costly.think its just gonna sit on blocks for a while.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie in Houston on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 05:47 pm:

Tim, I joined that club a lot of years ago.
I have a question? How do you manage to have the drums that smooth on a worn out engine. Low gear is the only one in the photo that is not perfect flat. (I know, photos sometime hide things)
Loss of power was not a symptom on one of our cars, "Low band out of adjust very rapidly" was the symptom and also the accessory filter was full of lint from the band.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa in Poulsbo, WA on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 06:03 pm:

Tim,

Welcome to the club. I'm a "Reverse" member myself. If you are the over-achiever type, your next promotion wil be to the "Many Parts A Flying" segment. LOL :-)

Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By larry on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 06:47 pm:

Tim where they keblar bands??
Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim ( www.ModelTengine.com ) on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 07:16 pm:

Those drums are smooth. Slicker than snot too. I finally figured out why this car did not want to back up when I got it apart. The triple gear bushings (two of them) were welded to the pins, someone didn't leave enough clearance. The outside of the bushings worn down oval and they let the gears wobble so much one of them dug into the flywheel an 1/8". My assumption is that reverse caused the gear to tilt. Going forward was ok. The lint filter was full, the bands were ok, but it shaved off a good amount. I know within a mile of when it happened. I went uptown a few weeks ago, got gas, then stopped at "Gen I"'s house. They live on a slight hill. This car would make it up in high loaded with all five of us, if I rev'd up good in low first. That day it wouldn't make with only 3 of us inside (not even close) and I crawled the last 1/4 mile in low. Got home (4 miles?) after our visit and it was boiling over, shaking, and would barely run down the road. After compression tests, checking the new cam gear (a friend suggested maybe it jumped a tooth), and considering that maybe it threw a magnet we pulled it out. The drum surprised me. Pulling it off surprised me more, I slit my fingers open on the edges when I reached down to pull it all off. I don't know if it wore into that shape, or if the builder sharpened it. The front edge of the first drum is like a razor. One of the gears bit me too. I think it knows it's going to T part heaven.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim ( www.ModelTengine.com ) on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 07:25 pm:

It just occurred to me. This is the first thing I have ever had physically break on any of my T's. I had a front main melt once, and a wheel fell apart while I was driving (all six nuts and hub bolts fell off), but nothings ever really broken on me before.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth H. Todd on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 11:05 am:

I've always wondered if a guy could just chamfer a cracked drum real good so's it wouldn't wear the band lining and just drive it like that.
Kinda makes sense to me.
Anyone ever try it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 11:34 am:

Kenneth,

No, it doesn't make sense. Cracked drums become broken fragmented drums if you keep driving.

Royce


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Mortensen on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 11:58 am:

A cracked drum is cause for immediate teardown. Don't ask how I know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 12:13 pm:

Tim what do ya think it will cost to change the drum ? i dont have the tools to do it .i can get it out & ship it off though.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 12:41 pm:

James,if you can send the low speed drum to a rebuilder, they can replace the drum with another and and keep the old gear sleeve. That way you wouldn't have to replace the bushing, and everything will fit just like before. I'm sure Tim will do that for you if he can fit it in. If not, I am sure someone local can do it. All you need is a good low speed drum, rivets (both available from Langs) and a way to remove and install the rivets. If you decide to do it yourself, email me direct and I'll send off step by step procedures. Its not hard and the results are satisfying. If you don't want to or are not able to do it yourself and can't find anyone else, I'll do it for you for $50; that includes a good used drum. Figure postage to 95630 and back.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim ( www.ModelTengine.com ) on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 01:08 pm:

James,

The cost would be way more than Richard has offered. If you want me to do it, you can send the whole transmission here in one piece and I'll make sure everything is 100%k before you put it back in the car. It would suck to get it back in and find another problem later.

Lets turn this into a positive. Your broken drum has opened up an opportunity for you. Now you can get the transmission balanced and you'll end up with a smoother running T when it's over.

Email me off the forum if you want to move ahead on this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim ( www.ModelTengine.com ) on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 11:43 am:

Someone tried to make trouble above by asking if these were Kevlar bands. There are other reasons drums break. Age can do it, or other reasons that the heat built up. In my case, the triple gears were not properly fit when this was rebuilt. The bushings seized to the pins. The pins wore out, and the gears tilted when low and reverse were used. Efforts to move the car were met with resistance as the gears and flywheel cut into each other. More effort was applied and the car moved. I think it just got to the point where so much pressure was required on the pedal, and so much friction happened inside while trying to stop that drum - it got hot and broke.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 12:38 pm:

As Don Quijote's Sancho said, "Whether the stone hits the pitcher, or the pitcher hits the stone; it's going to be hard on the pitcher." Cotton or wood bands would have burnt up before cooking the drum surface.

The state of denial is not Egypt.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim ( www.ModelTengine.com ) on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 12:54 pm:

I see no evidence that it cooked. I'm only speculating. It could have been that there was a flaw in the drum that finally came out. I have no idea the condition of the engine when it was rebuilt, or if it was magnafluxed - in 1976. I was told that it was done just in time for our country's birthday celebrations. I guess your right, Kevlar won't last very long. Every 30 years or so you may have to deal with a problem like this.

If the bushings were fit with the proper clearances, this would not have happened, as seen by the one gear that survived. Hardly any wear on that one at all, and it was not hitting the flywheel. It is a good example of why you need to do things right. From the overall condition of this motor, I'd still be driving it if those bushings had not frozen up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Denny Seth on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 01:07 pm:

Greetings all,

I currently have my transmission all torn down as I work on a total frame up resoration. How snug should the bushings be? Mine spin freely and can silde off and on easily. Should I re-bush while its apart? The $50 for the bushing set is minor but if I don't need to why bother.

Denny Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By DaGunny on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 02:29 pm:

There are two kinds of bushings for the triple gears. The standard ones available and the "Z-bronze" that Bob's has. They have a reddish hue to them. The cost isn't the problem. It's reaming them to the correct clearance. If you replace pins make sure you have a good support below them when pressing in and out. That lesson cost me a flywheel when a chunk popped off. It was supported but not enough. http://www.model-t-ford.org/projects/magnets/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 03:20 pm:

I am certainly not a Kevlar Basher as I have it in two of my T's and was carefull on the installation, run them loose, and never slip the pedal.

It amazes me each time the subject of a cracked low drum comes up it is always the "fault of kevlar". I tore an engine down that I bought with some other junk. The previous owner stopped running it many years ago (and I'm guessing because of the cracked drum). This engine had probably not been run for years before Kevlar was ever dreamed up which means it was cracked by cotton bands.

If cotton can crack one so can anything. The old manuals specify to inspect for sharp or cracked drums when changing bands which indicates cracked drums are part of (and always have been) owning a T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 04:55 pm:

Hi Tim. I joined the broken drum club last year when I discovered a cracked large brake drum. I don't know when it broke - it could have been that way when I bought it. It hasn't warmed up enough in my neck of the woods to get the engine back in my pickup but methinks when she's all buttoned up I'll try my hand at synthetic oil with some ATF thrown in for good luck .... that along with training myself on better use of the pedals.

I'm certainly not trying to start anything here, but after the hassle this repair has been to me, I want to reduce friction as much as possible inside that tranny so I'm not repeating this headache in the near future. Due to the little amount I plan on driving it each year I'm hoping to never see those innards again (famous last words) but I'll just burn up the streets in my junky '26 Touring.

Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave_Sosnoski on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 07:15 pm:

Garnet,

You may want to rethink the reducing friction in the transmission thing. The bands rely on friction to stop the drums. If you reduce the friction too much then the drums will slip - which is not a good thing. What you really want to do is make sure you are not slipping the bands. You want the band to grab the drum and stop it with minimal slipping. Also, if you are relying on the internal transmission brake, then reducing the friction there would also be a bad thing - like little or no brakes.

The best thing is to make sure that the linings are installed on the bands correctly, that they are adjusted as loose as possible, and that the cams on the pedals have been fixed to eliminate extra pedal movement. Then it's just a matter of stomping firmly on the pedals instead of letting them slip. Also, I firmly believe that brakes on the rear wheels are important. Not only does it improve the braking and take away all the possible failure points from the wheel to the transmission, it also greatly reduces the slipping of the brake band on the brake drum and places the braking heat at the wheel instead of inside the transmission.

Just my opinions
Dave S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 08:02 pm:

Excuse me Tim ,I was folowing logical elimination external information before considering other
internal factors
I just wanted to know because i was undesided on my use of kevlar bands .
I asure you it was not ment that i "tried to make trouble"Please forgive me for asking. It wont happen again
Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 08:11 pm:

I read all of the posts but didn't find out what kind of bands he was using. Perhaps it was mentioned but I didn't actually read the facts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim ( www.ModelTengine.com ) on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 08:33 pm:

Larry, someone always comes in and blames the evil kevlar, evil distributor, evil oak spokes, or evil whatever they personally don't like when something breaks. Posting under a single name and without a profile made you stand out. Most rabble rousers are cowards and don't sign their name. I thought you were just out looking for a fight and I had no intention of taking the bait.

The answer is that they were kevlar, as are/were all the T's I have owned except the first one. I like them because I can put them in, drive around the block once, adjust them up and never have to touch them again. The one time I had cotton I had to adjust them tighter about once a week.

The kevlar didn't cause the problem. Yes, I'm sure they got hot fighting to make the car move. The difference is, I drove the car home and I still have good bands for later use. Cotton bands would probably have burst into flames in there and left me beside the road.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim ( www.ModelTengine.com ) on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 08:34 pm:

Frank, "don't confuse me with the facts, my minds made up" ha ha ha


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By DaGunny on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 10:26 pm:

Hey Dave - You forgot to mention those hummanahomana springs you make - that keeps the bands apart. Since he wont - I will. I put them in my cars and the pedals never sag. Snap back fine. http://www.modelt.org/whatsnew/Longer_Band_Springs.htm $8 of cheap insurance. Thanks for making them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 11:20 pm:

Your points are well taken Dave. Thanks.

Garnet


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