What sort of lamp? Brown 540

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: What sort of lamp? Brown 540
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 10:13 pm:

I saw this lamp on ebay this afternoon and was wondering what its application would be.

The listing says: "The kerosene lamp itself is 9-1/4 inches tall. No Damage.

This item has a very fancy script "Ford" with "W. Brown Mfg. Co." above and "Model 540" below.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roland Palmatier -- Durham, NH on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 11:53 pm:

I believe that is a Depot hack bracket on the lamp.

Regards, Roland


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend, Gresham, Orygun on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 12:46 am:

Roland, the bracket is a two-piece tail lamp from a 1915 runabout. The license plate bracket goes in the hole the goes crossways. Here is the complete assembly viewed from the back side.
-Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend, Gresham, Orygun on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 12:55 am:

Richard-
The lamp is the type used on Model T Fords from 1918 till the lamps were discontinued.
-Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 01:08 am:

Roland, Keith

Thank you both for your responses. So, this lamp would be incorrect for my 15 then?

Richard


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 07:57 am:

Your '15 should have E&J number 8 and #9 for the cowl and tail lamps respectively. They look very similar to the one above with the exception that the correct lamps have brass tops and steel body. The lamp in your picture appears to be painted with gold paint over steel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 11:02 am:

'15-'16 lamps should also have another row of holes near the base of the chimney, and the inner shell should be round like a donut, not squared off like the '17-up ones.

As Keith said, the bracket is for an early '15 Runabout or Coupelet. Those brackets are few and far between. They switched to a one-piece bracket sometime during the '15 model year and used those through '22 on non-starter cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 11:07 am:

While we're on the subject, I have tail lamp brackets for Tourings/Sedans that use the same piece for the license plate, the T7471. I have one with an A suffix like the one Keith pictured above, and one without the A. The letter suffixes usually denoted a change in the part, but I can find no differences between the two. Does anyone know what change the A might represent?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 11:24 am:

Royce,
Thank you for letting me know what to look for in the way of the correct lights to look for.

Mike,

This light doesn't have the other row of holes near the base of the chimney, but the inner shell is round.



In regards to the bracket, since they didn't make them for that long of a period, finding the license plate bar to go along with it would probabally be hard.

Thank you for your help
Richard


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 08:19 pm:

Actualy Mike - I believe the '16 model tail-light license bracket was still 2 piece only it's riveted over instead of having a nut holding it to the body attachment - I have a couple hanging in the shop.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 08:20 pm:

Royce,Last time I was over to see JIm Finney,at Oblong,Il. He showed me a set of NOS 15 sidelights he got out of a dealership(in boxes) that were plain on top. Not all of them had "model 8" on them. I have one set that way also.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 10:22 pm:

Jack

Were they still marked as E&J even though they weren't marked "model 8"?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 10:39 pm:

Nope,just a plain brass top. Nice and smooth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend, Gresham, Orygun on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 01:54 am:

Richard-
Like the other said, the 1915 lamp should have a row of holes with the inside reflector round. However, the top would be brass, as well as the lens rim, with the thumb tab held in place with one rivet.

In late '15 the lamps changed to all black and I believe the 16-17 lamps had usually only one rivet. I saw one at a swap meet once that had original black paint on it, however I could see in a chip of the paint that the ring was brass that has been painted! I believe it was late '17 into '18 that they started in with the flat sides of the reflector, discontinued the row of holes and started using two rivets. Of course it may make a difference if the lamps are Brown or E & J. Also, since the lamps have interchangeable parts, they can be mixed and matched parts put together.

On my two piece bracket, it carries the p/n T7471 A. Like Mike says the suffix letter denotes a change in design. However, I also have a two-piece riveted touring tail light bracket that Steve (and many others) refer to as the 1916 bracket. Interestingly enough, it carries p/n T7471, which typically would have been made before the bolted together two-piece bracket (with the "A" suffix). However, the riveted bracket used one less part (the nut) which would indicate the more cost-effective "updated" design.

Things that make you go, "Hmmmmm"

Here is a picture of a "riveted" two-piece tail light bracket
-Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 10:50 am:

Thank you everyone for your responses.

I found one on ebay this morning that features one rivet on the latch for the bezel, an extra row of holes on the chinmey, and the round internal chamber, but this lamp is also tagged as a Model 540?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1914-Tail-Light-FORD-Model-T-Car-COPPER-Lantern-Origina_W0QQ itemZ220212298658QQihZ012QQcategoryZ418QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Where does this one fall in the lamp production spectrum?

Royce, you were absolutely correct the lamp wound up being gold paint over steel.

Richard


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 11:29 am:

1917 - 1927.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 03:44 pm:

Thank you Royce


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend, Gresham, Orygun on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 04:41 pm:

Richard-
The lamp you found was probably used in 1916 and 1917 only. The charactaristics include the single rivet, row of holes, round reflector, and steel bezel and top (painted black.)

The lamps you are looking for have brass top and bezel.
-Keith


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