Iím sorry, but Iíve got to get this off my chest. Itís been eating on me for almost a month. And it may serve as a warning to others, OK?
Iíve worked on my 1919 Speedster for a year, preparing it for the Santa Clara Valley Model T Ford Clubís Annual Endurance Run June 7-8. This event struck a cord with me, and after watching a video of the start of last yearís event, I was hooked. I have not participated before, but I threw myself into making my car ready for the 2008 Run. My car is pure Speedster.
I sent in my application and a check for the fee and waited eagerly for a response from the SCVMTFC. After a couple of weeks, I happened to look at their website and began reading Equipment Requirements, Inspection information and Disqualification rules.
There, it hit me like being smacked with a mackerel, that my car would be disqualified from running in the event because it has dual 1930ís Zenith DOWNDRAFT carburetors! I could have updraft carburetors, sidedraft carburetors or 2008 Suzuki outboard motor carburetors, but no DOWNDRAFT carburetors.
Their rationale for that is to maintain the overall look, design and keep the event within the spirit of cross country endurance runs, it says.
They sure popped my bubble. I could just see myself driving 400-miles to participate in the event only to have them tell me that my car is disqualified for some other asinine rule that makes absolutely no sense at all.
Be forewarned gentlemen, unless you have participated before in this event, youíd better check everything out with their inspector - you might travel a long way for nothing.
Itís their club, and they have every right to keep outsiders outside, but they should have a better reason than that a car has a particular configuration of carburetor - thatís lame.
I wouldn't get overly excited, Bob.
The Santa Clara Club is a great one and the people are wonderful. If you had driven 400 miles to make the run, nobody would have straight-armed you and turned you away at the door.
Yes, the idea is to keep the appearance that we all hold dear. For awhile there, some cars were really losing their "era" appearance. I won't go into any detail... but - yikes.
If I were in your shoes, I'd send an email to the run organizers. The rules are for a purpose but they are reasonable people.
I can tell you up front, your number "4" is taken and there's little chance it will come available for a long time! LOL
I agree about the carburator rule that is really dumb in my opinion. I have a relative who runs that endurance run and since he has been in it for 30+ years he was grandfathered in for five years, this is the last year he can run with his downdraft stromberg carb. next year he has to change to either a side or updraft. Also if you do go this year make sure you have your car number on your radiator. I was riding navigator in the race last year and they were a stickler for that rule. I have my own T speedster now and wonder what stuff they would find wrong with mine to disqualify me. i would be towing mine from the portland OR area and it would totally suck if i was disqualified from the event for some rule infraction. I do have an updraft carb, but a few other questionalbe things. Nice car you have there.
I guess the downdraft Winfield on my Frontenac will not be allowed either..they need some real "experts" making the rules on vintage speed equipment.
No, Dan, I'm not excited. I'm disappointed.
Disqualifying a car because it has a downdraft carburetor does not seem to be an action by "reasonable" people, and I'll not drive 400-miles one-way to find out that my car is the wrong color, or that I'm not wearing the "proper" attire, or some other equally silly determination by their officials.
The number 4 is a non-issue, I would have put any number on it that they'd want to see, but I'll not toss my 1930 Zenith one-barrel IHC carburetors because some purist is offended by them.
Thanks for your input.
It might be for the best then, Bob.
It sounds like you wouldn't have liked the event anyway.
Gee, I guess downdrafts are not correct on early speedsters...somebody never told these guys...
Why cant the judges just say any carb as long as its era correct?
The Santa Clara folks have their rules and can do as they please. My car would never pass muster there either as I happen to like brakes and steering that are better than the T. No problem, there are other opportunities. Consider any NWVS event (see them at www.nwvs.org). We take 1934 and older 4 cylinder speedsters and are not as sticky about mods that enhance safety or which way your carb(s) point(s). Of course you may find a Model A, Chevy, Buick, or Dodge next to you in the parking lot.
Bob, your body looks like one that was advertized in an early Sears catalog. Is it an otherwise original speedster?
Same here Bob - I'm running a SR B Winfield downdraft and she goes like stink ! I get an invite to Santa Clara every spring but I'm not tearing anything apart to join them - too bad for them. We have a great bunch up here in the Pacific Northwest to play with !
The Santa Clara rules say that you can use a model A carb because they are so readily available and work well on a T and look like they could have been used in 1927.
There were NO cars running in 1927 with down draft carbs. 1934 is not T era.
Dual side draft webers do not happen to be T era either.
You are required to use T era ('27 and earlier) parts.
Fiberglass bodies, wide tires and mag wheels with whatever modern carbs and rack & pinion steering with disc brakes does not make a T era speedster-it's a hot rod.
The Santa Clara Valley Model T ford club is not a hotrod club.
If you think you should be allowed to run more modern dual down draft carbs why wouldn't you be allowed to run with a twin overhead cam modern engine with a T-5 trans?
Look at every car on the NWVS site and you will see cars that by any stretch of the imagination are not authentic model T era speedsters.
You think they should all be allowed to run in the Santa Clara evnt?
Should they also be allowed to be in a car show for authentic cars of 1927 and earlier?
Where are you gonna draw the line?
The rules have been in effect for many years, they have not been pushed much untill 4 years ago.
Dan, I would have absolutely loved the event - why else would I have spent a year preparing my car for it? I had friends invited to join my wife and I, and I even bought two old-time helmets and goggles to look racy. I've watched the video countless times and was very enthusiastic about it. My car looks terrific and would drive well alongside any of them. It's not just as well, it's really sad.
Moe, their rules are that the carb (s) must be era correct - However, their era stops at 1927. 1930s carbs will disqualify the car. (oddly, my 1970s era distributor is OK.)
James, I don't know what make the body is, I've tried to find out but have had no luck. There are no identifying marks or tags on it.
Y'know, like I said initially, it's their club and they make the rules, and I'm OK with that. My purpose of bringing this up - as I stated right out of the gate - is to alert others so that they don't travel a long way for nothing. Check the SCVMTFC rules: No downdraft carburetors, no hydraulic brakes (but you can't run with JUST the car's original brakes!), essentially, almost everything must be pre-1927.
Steve, I may meet up with you in the Great NW this summer - I'm a member of the NWVS too.
I am Gary Bausch, head of the Tech. Committee for the SCVMTFC Endurance Run. I just had a very pleasant phone conversation with Mr. Robb and was able to clear some things up about our rules. The only thing that Mr. Robb stated above that we is not valid is we would not allow 2008 Suzuki outboard carbs. ( In talking with Mr. Robb we laughed about this and I fully understood his point). I want it understood that the tech committee is made up people with years of speedster/racer knowledge. We DO NOT pretend to know it all. There were many, many late nights of discussion to come up with these rules. Nothing was taken lightly. As Dan stated over the years Speedsters had started to go in directions we did not see the need for them to go. Quite frankly many of the rules you read now have been part of the Endurance Run for many years, but never enforced. The most important and basic guide for the rule is the "era" we chose. Being that we are a Model T Ford Club we decided that vehicles, parts of vehicles and accessories available thru the model year 1927 would be acceptable, with some exception stated in the rules. If you go to the SCVMTFC web site and read the Endurance Run Mission statement, it states our message very well. Other Speedster owner clubs extend their era into the 30's. To some specifics:
Tim: Two of the Tech committee members also run downdraft Carbs. ( I am one of the two)This is my last year to run my Winfield S that has been on my car for thirty years. On the number issue you are correct. We use the numbers for two reasons. One to keep track of the cars as this is a timed event ( you may not care about where you finish many do) Two as a way of keeping track of the speedsters so we know that everyone is accounted for and not out lost roaming the country side. You did not mention we did have some soft open mesh screen, stencils and paint to make a "number plate" held on with soft copper wire for those without numbers on their radiator. If any one has any questions about anything on their speedster all you have to do is email or pick up the phone. Don't want to use your nickle email your number and a good time to call and I 'll use my nickle. Tim I to would hate for you to have come all that way and not be able to participate for some reason. I expect to here from you.
Bob: Winfield S Carbs were not available till 1930. I have an original Winfield stating so. Model SR 1933 or 1934 I believe. Bob if you or any of your "experts" on vintage speed equipment can provide any concievable printed matter, photograghs stating ANYTHING we do not allow was available model year 1927 or before we will change our rules for that item.Simple as that. I wish someone would come up with an undisputable picture of Ed Winfield in 1927 with a downdraft carb. Please no photoshop trickery.(LOL)
Willy: Picture is dated 1934. Our era ends 1927 Model year.
Moe: Most ANY updraft including Windfield S and SR are allowed. Most sidedrafts are allowed. Not sure contact us.
Walt: Could not agree with you more.
Steve: Ditto Walt
I hope I have cleared some things up. As I stated if you are interested on going on our run and want clarification on anything contact me. Thank you Gary Bausch
Miller was making donwdraft carbs in 1918. I don't see why they wouldn't be era correct
I've seen ads for four wheel hydralic brakes for the Model T offered during it's lifetime. Wouldn't that qualify them for "Era correct?"
John and Joe,
As Gary Bausch pointed-out, if you can provide documentation that shows that a carburetor or brakes or whatever was available prior to 1927, they may amend the rules to allow that to be used without disqualification.
Do you have a photo of an early Miller downdraft carburetor John? If you do, I'd love to see how close it is to matching my 1930 Zenith IHC marine carburetors.
John: No offense but we need more than your word.
What brand of car used these Miller Carbs? What we require as proof is some undesputable printed dated matter, printed and dated model year 1927 or before. You have no idea how much I wish to be shown that downdraft carbs were in use model year 1927 or before. It could be as simple as an experimental one on a test car.
Joseph: If you can find a set of the Hydrualic brakes that you have seen advertised they would be allowed. Find a model year 1927 or earlier car(REO) the had hydraulic brakes and put them on your Speedster and they will be allowed.
Page 18 of "The Last Great Miller"
These were Miller race cars. The title is "Origins of Downdraft Carburation
In 1919 Miller fitted hydraulic brake to the Golden Submarine. even though they were on the front tt was the first race car to be fitted with wet brakes. Sounds like Miller was ahead of his time.
"It could be as simple as an experimental one on a test car."
I guess the rules can now be amended.
Bob go have fun and Gary run what you got.
If Model A carbs are legal, why not the 4-wheel Nash Metro brakes on Humble Howard's Lucky 7?
Went to the milleroffy.com site. In the Miller history section years 1917-1920 they mention the TNT car with four wheel brakes and lightened drums. No mention about them being wet. In the photos section I found pictures of the Golden Submarine in the 1915-1922 section and it very clearly shows a single updraft. The Junior Specials in the same section are running either 2 or 3 updrafts. Is there another part of the website I missed that shows the wet brakes or downdraft carb? Where do I find the "Origins of Downdraft carburation"? I am not trying to be smart or difficult, I'm just a little slow sometimes. Thank you Gary
milleroffy.com miller history.
Miller followed these engines with a series of 289-ci single-overhead camshaft 16-valve fours constructed of Alloyanum extensively. The engines employed wet steel liners - the world's first, at least among racing engines. One of these engines was placed in what remains to this day as one of the most dramatic racing cars of all time: the Miller Golden Submarine. Designed and built in 1917, the entirely enclosed and aerodynamic racecar was sensational wherever it went. On a sister car, Miller fitted hydraulic front brakes for 1919, making it the first known appearance of such brakes on a racing car.
Harry Arminius Miller (December 9, 1875 - May 3, 1943)
Griffith Borgeson, Miller, Motorbooks International, 1993
Mark Dees, The Miller Dynasty, The Hippodrome Publishing Co., 1994
Copyrighted by the authors.
Edited by Harold Peters
The below link is for the downdraft page 19 in the book "The Last Great Miller"
That looks like proof to me, that they did make hydro brakes pre 1927. Excellent
I am not trying to stir the pot. Nor am I by no way an expert.
Why not run two events....One that requires everything to be original era and the other event could just be a "Fun Run" anyone with a speedster can run.
Perhaps this will help. Don't judge "period correct" by what appeared on the T, as Henry was known for late introduction of technology that was held under patent rights and his steadfast refusal to pay royalties.
1922 First American car with four-wheel hydraulic brakes
"The Duesenberg, made in Indianapolis, Indiana, is the first American car with four-wheel hydraulic brakes, replacing ones that relied on the pressure of the driverís foot alone. Hydraulic brakes use a master cylinder in a hydraulic system to keep pressure evenly applied to each wheel of the car as the driver presses on the brake pedal."
"In 1918, a young inventor named Malcolm Lougheed (who later changed the spelling of his name to Lockheed) applied hydraulics to braking. He used cylinders and tubes to transmit fluid pressure against brake shoes, pushing the shoes against the drums. In 1921, the first passenger car to be equipped with four-wheel hydraulic brakes appeared -- the Model A Duesenberg.
Carmakers as a group were not quick to adopt hydraulics. Ten years after the Model A Duesie, in 1931, only Chrysler, Dodge, Desoto, Plymouth, Auburn, Franklin, Reo, and Graham had hydraulic brakes. All the others still had cable-operated mechanical brakes. In fact, it was not until 1939 that Ford finally gave in, becoming the last major manufacturer to switch to hydraulic brakes."
"Chrysler has been responsible for many more innovations than one would expect. A few of these include:
Four-wheel hydraulic brakes, 1924 (the system was nominally designed by Lockheed, but had to be completely redesigned by Chrysler before it could be used. They assigned their patents to Lockheed. Though Duesenberg had sold a hydraulic brake system, it was not a modern design and had only been used on a handful of vehicles. Rickenbacker had used hydraulic brakes but they were both unreliable and a limited production.)"
Hmm, 1939 Ford. Do you suppose that's when patents expired?
Nash eased into hyd 4-wheel brakes, by adding hyd front brakes to the mechanical rears in 1926, then going full hyd in 1927.
I've never done it, but the 1926 combo would be a great system on a T.
I need time to digest all you have written and I type painfully slow. I will respond when I get home from work. Thanks for all your input.
Change your carb to an updraft, or maybe just keep the hood closed? I'd be upset too, but I would not let it keep me away. If you found out when you got there, yes it would be upsetting. But you do have time to change the car, don't you?
Here's more related to downdraft carburetors
"By 1911, Carter had designed and built the first downdraft carburetor. It was augmented with a
unique fuel-handling system, which used manifold vacuum to pump fuel from the main gas tank to a
small reservoir located above the carburetor. The pump assembly used a diaphragm constructed of linseed-treated raincoat material."
If you look closely at the Quad-Bec hydraulic brake system for the Model T you will notice that it used a system of rods and levers to actuate a wheel cylinder with a built in resevoir at each wheel. No central master cylinder or brake lines were used. Also in the mid 1920's Ed Winfield built a carb known as the Model N. It could be configured as a sidedraft, updraft, or down draft. Not many were built and they are very rare today.
It will be interesting to see how many cars actually compete in 2009. Then we will know if the rules are well founded.
My car is not legal and I will not do the extensive work required to make it so. It was built many years ago to run up Shell Hill in Long Beach and to drag race Humble Howard in Lucky Seven. I have the numbers painted on but also have decals and so that is not correct. I run a Stromberg 97 Carburetor and an electric fan and although you can't see these things from 5 feet away I am disqualified. I have a modern Layne Warford built in 2006 with constent mesh gears and it is legal but my 1936 carburetor is not.
Things hidden inside of the engine are legal but stuff hanging on the outside are not.
I have seen Carter BB1 updraft carburetors on cars running in the event and they are off of 1954 Cab-Over Chevrolet trucks and they look old. You can't run a 1932 Ford carburetor because it does not look correct. You can run a 12 volt generator with a voltage relay but not an alternator.
I believe that the first mass-produced cars running down-draft were Chrysler products and that was in 1930, but I may be wrong.
Again, I say it will be interesting to see the field of competition in 2009. It is a well run event and I have enjoyed attending it several times over the years. I understand that if you want to attend the 50 mile low-land tour with the stock T's you are welcome to do so.
At work we have a '24 McFarlan with the hydraulic brakes it was built with. I know about the Quad-Beck hyraulic system. There were others.
Does that mean my speedster would be era correct with Lincoln discs and calipers on all 4 wheels?
If you entered the Santa Clara event with a Quad-Beck system or McFarlan brakes or early Chrysler hydraulics you would get no complaints from anybody connected with the event. NONE.
Now that we have proof that there were racers running with down draft carbs before '27 I guess I can put the Webers or the SU on my T speedster.!!?? NO! the quadra jet!!! era correct!
The over-all average speed on the 160 to 200 mile Santa Clara event is from about 23.5 to 24 miles per hour. Some years may have been faster, like in '86. There are always places every year in the run where the speed limit is 45 however.
I think I need a drag-shute if I ever run it again.
I have the original updraft "Anco" intake/exhaust manifold and the Marvel carburetor that was on it when I bought the car, however, I don't know if those are pre-1927 or later either.... so I could change back to those, with no guarantee that they would be acceptable either. Besides, why modify my modifications (which I REALLY like) for one event?
Also, it doesn't matter to SCVMTFC that my car has a full hood and that the carburetors cannot be seen. If they know I have them, I'm out.
I spoke at length with Gary Bausch and he's really trying very hard to work something out on this subject. He's OK, and pointed out that even if I went back to the updraft set-up, I'd still be disqualified because of my homemade, 2007, hydraulic disc brakes on the rear wheels - again, even if they could not be seen.
It's their club and they can do whatever they like, and that's OK with me, but I'm saddened that I wasted almost an entire year preparing for something in which I'm not allowed.
Thanx for all your input.
Go to the Speedster Rally V in Virginia and run what ya brung. June 11 - 15, I believe. Here's the info;
Speedster Rally V, held this year in Salem, Virginia For more information please contact Mike Trenor at (540) 309-8027, or Kyle Harris (504) 580-6731
There are a lot of other runs where they are not as strict. San Diego and Arizona come to mind but they are only 100 to 125 mile runs with about 20 to 35 cars. The picture below was taken at San Diego in 2007
Sorry to Gary i didn't mention about the temporary numbers using the mesh i did forget about that. I would love to particpate this year in the run but my june calander is already really jammed up. I am already thinking about the run in 2009 the 40th I belive it is? Also for Gary I bought my car from Jerry Polen and he had it on the Svedal tour last july 4th.
Good luck to Bob in whatever you decide to do.
We're really close to San Diego (we're in South Orange County) and I'll look into attending their event. One hundred miles is good.... and I might even join their club too.
Thanx for the info.
I feel compelled to throw in my two cents worth as an outsider. Forgive me while I tweet my plastic horn. We need to look at a few cases to understand the problem:
1)If you examine old publications of events put on by the Classic Car Club, you see that in the old days people drove cars from the 1920s and early 1930s on a regular basis in Classic Car events. In the 1990s Classic Car club approved the 1941 Cadillac Series 62 Special as a full classic. The result is that if you go on a tour these days, you almost never see 1920ís cars on tour and the vast majority of cars are 41 Cadillacs sprinkled with some late 1930s Packards. People still own 1920ís classics, but donít drive them because the 41 Cadillac is a good freeway car that is comfortable etc.
2)The Horseless Carriage club in an attempt to improve participation in local events has allowed cars up to 1932. The results are that most cars on local tours are now Model As and Model T speedsters with a sprinkling of Pre 1916 cars. It is not quite that bad, but often we only see one or two pre-1916 cars on an event. For me, it takes a lot of the fun out of the events. The national tours require a pre 1916 car and those events are amazing and well attended. I know local members of the Horseless Carriage Club who only own a Model A and feel no need buy or finish the pre 1916 cars that they have.
3)I own vintage Vespas and Lambrettas from the 1950s and early 1960s. Before you laugh, there are great parallels between the old car hobby and early scooters. They were beautifully made and astonishingly high quality for the time. We are talking closinee emblems, chrome plated brass scripts, brass headlight rims, glass lenses, injection molded aluminum crankcases etc. Anyway, Vespas were not imported into the USA after about 1978 due to smog. Until recently, if you went on a Vespa rally, by definition, every scooter was old. Now that they are importing new scooters into the US, people are no longer compelled to ride or own a vintage bike. Anyone can ride a plastic one now. The result is that the rallies have become nothing but an assemblage of new scooters with an occasional early bike getting left behind in the dust. The fun has gone out of it. So, we put on our own rally that is a PRE 1963 scooter rally ĎThe Santa Cruz Classicí. People are compelled now to make their 1956 VL3 run and bring it instead of riding the 2008 plastic scooter. At least that is the theory. We still get a lot of flak from people who want to bring their 2008 plastic scooter. There are other events for plastic scooters. This event is unique.
The point is this: There has to be limits on what people can do or some people will take the path of least resistance to participate in an event. It is much easier to make a car run with a Stromberg 97 down draft than an updraft rotating barrel Winfield from the early 1920ís. That is why we do it; otherwise we would attend events in our Toyotas.
Finally: I have been on two of the Santa Clara Speedster runs. The tech inspection was a blast and not to be missed. Anyone who comes to this event, even as a spectator will have a great time. My car got dinged because there was no strap on the hood. They let me participate, but asked that I fix it for next year. My car had no number. I do not want a number on my car. But I put masking tape numbers on for the day including the radiator and pulled them off at the end. The clubís number one priority as I can see is: "Safety First". That is what 90% of the rules are about. The only car I have personally seen turned away from this event was a car with a Ford Pinto engine. And the car was an assembly of junk and dangerous. Given the opportunity, some people will drive cars with bad steering, weak welds, no body, loose wheel bearings, you name it.
Thank you for taking the time to read my lengthy discussion, but as I see it if we want to continue to have fun with our Old cars there needs to be places where only Old cars can be run. Just for fun, I have added a few photos of my 'Wedgewood' speedster built by the famous stove company.
Brian Harlamoff in Santa Cruz
26 Lincoln Brunn Cabriolet
28 Lincoln Judkins Two Window Berline
28 Stutz BB convertible coupe (in restoration)
Hey, I was at the San Diego Speedster event this past fall. If it wasn't for the crazy fire on Sunday it would have been a greater than great weekend! Come on down!
I remember a Wedgewood badged speedster on the Santa Clara run 3 or 4 years ago that went over MT. Hamilton. Yours has got to be a different car though....Right? Yours is a beut.
I remeber a white car last year that came with no number.
I like the scooter analogy.
The Santa Clara events got to where some guys wouldn't enter because they didn't want to run with the cars that were being entered.
They went from an all-time high of 125 cars down to an average of 55 to 70 and finally suddenly dropped to 12.
In an effort to get more cars the raised the year limit to 1941 and allowed other makes incuding sports cars of the era to '41.
They got a couple old British cars, a '26 Bugatti, a someting Ford chassis with a '34 Chrysler engine and a couple of model A's, a Buick 8, etc.
Then the fit hit the shan. Everybody dropped out.
They wanted to run with model T Ford speedsters.
To get the event up and running other makes of '27 and older were allowed-still are, and the bugatti still comes some times.
John: I do think what you are doing as stirring the pot. You made a statement, I asked for more details and you provided them. Thank you for taking the time to provide the exact info. I will address hydraulic brakes at the end. The first sentance of "Origins of Downdraft carburation is as follows "The arrival of downdraft carburation on the American auto racing scene coincides with the introduction of the Winfield Type S carburator very early in 1930". This pretty much backs up our current position on downdraft carbs. In the last paragragh the author writes about seeing a photogragh of a Golden Submarine type motor with a Miller Downdraft carburator dateline "about 1918" on a "marine" application not a Miller car. All the pictures I saw on the Milleroffy site show Miller engines in the twenties with updraft carbs. This begs the question of with Winfield working for Miller during the twenties why no downdraft carbs till 1930? I will bring this bit of info up at the next Tech Comm. meeting. I hope you all can appreciate that we will want to see this picture for ourselves before passing judgement. Is there anyone that knows of this picture or a copy of it that we may look at? John I appreciate all this info and we will look into it further.
Ricks: If Howard were to put Quad-BEC hydraulic brakes on his car no problems. His Nash Metro's are 50's stuff I believe. If you were to put the 26-27 Nash hydraulic brakes on you car no problem.
Denny: With endurance runs in the Pacific Northwest, Salinas CA, San Diego and Arizona you really have a good choice of alternet runs. I must make note here that the Santa Clara Run was the first. I have been on the Salinas run and had a great time. Many of our members were at this past San Diego run. With the exception of the fires also had a great time. I want to get up to a NWVS run eventually myself. These are all great runs with different rules.
Tim: I does not matter if one has a hood so you can't see the carbs or alternator.
Dave Paul: Interesting about the Carter carb. Unfortunatly none of the pictures were of the downdraft carb. I will also bring this up at the next Tech Comm. meeting. Thank you for the link.
Larry: We have heard rumors about the Model N need some more info though. Picture would be nice.
Frank Harris: As I am an official representative of the SCVMTFC Endurance Run I will not embarrass the club by responding to your post.(any more than I just did) Thank you for your interest though.
Tim: No sweat. I did not make Svedal this year as I was at a parade with my Dad and his 1907 Cadillac. I see Jerry at the Club meetings and will ask him about the car and any issues it might have. Yes next year is to 40th.
Brian: Thank you!
Aaron: Thank you!
To all about Hydrualic brakes: Technically we did not rule out Hydro. brakes or did we ever believe hydro. brakes did not exist during our chosen "era". I know that is what it says on the forms. Go find that 1921 Duesey pull the Hydro brakes off put them on your Speedster. Same for the 26-27 Nash brakes. Mid 20's REO's had Lockheed brakes on them. The Quad-BEC brake system is allowed. Any Hydraulic brakes off of a 1927 or earlier car, truck or airplane is okay. What we rule out is what everyone is currently using Nash metro,57 Chevy, disc brakes of any kind, etc. I want to Thank everyone who provided links to info.
I want to Thank Bob for starting this thread and although he can run his car in this years event as it is, I understand why he has decided not to. Gary Bausch
It's not just the SCVMFTC that hasn't found downdrafts prior to 1930. The Greatrace won't allow downdrafts on cars prior to 1930, either, and they've been at it 25 years, with all kinds of cars.
Greatrace allows modern 4-wheel drum brakes for safety's sake. They don't allow disc brakes, unless original.
Gary, thanks for taking all of our input constructivly. Just one correction...The 26-27 Nash had mechanical brakes, Duesenburg and Chrysler products introduced hydraulic brakes in the early 1920's.
Well... You're questioning my perfect memory, Dave Paul! If it wasn't Nash, then it was Studebaker. The car and ad I saw were owned by Neil Maken, editor of "Skinned Knuckles." Guess I should have asked him first.
Neil gave me a couple of the March issue at the San Diego swapmeet, as it has a nice article on wheel spokes to which I had contributed. I spoke with an older vendor later, after a purchase, figuring to give him one, and asked, "Do you get "Skinned Knuckles"?"
He held out his hands and showed me dings and scabs... "Yes, my skin is quite thin, why do you ask?"
Campy, Chic and Stylish car "events" bore me.
But what the heck, I'm just an old "Cracker" that happens to have a beat up old 27 Ford.
I've DRIVEN my car to a few of these kind of "popularity contests" but I'm quite satisfied to just putt around town with a bunch of the neighborhood kids in the back seat waving and yelling at their friends.
Here is a picture of a Model N Winfield. Notice that the float bowl can be unbolted and turned so that the carb can be configured as a downdraft, sidesraft, or up draft. I have never seen an advertisement for this carb. I don't know exactly when this carb was available. Since it is a Model N I assume it came out after the Model M but before the Model S.
The S has the bolt pattern like that, but the float assy is unique to downdraft or updraft, due to location of the fuel ports from the jets. How does the N adapt to the different orientations?
"History of Carter:
From Tinkerer to Manufacturer
Carterís new device brought greater accuracy to the process of metering fuel and mixing it with air.
As word of its superiority spread, demand rose to a sufficient level that in 1909, with the financial
backing of a friend, Will Carter founded the Carter Carburetor Company. The following year he
patented the Model C carburetor, an updraft design that incorporated an air valve. The Model C
was advertised as offering ďdignified acceleration,Ē and other literature of the era stated that the
carburetor ďhas conclusively proved the established principle of automatic-multiple jets. It has
separate adjustments for low, intermediate, and high speeds, however its action is entirely
automatic and these adjustments, when properly made, are fixed, requiring no further attention.Ē
By 1911, Carter had designed and built the first downdraft carburetor. It was augmented with a
unique fuel-handling system, which used manifold vacuum to pump fuel from the main gas tank to a
small reservoir located above the carburetor. The pump assembly used a diaphragm constructed of
linseed-treated raincoat material."
Excert from the Book:
"How to Rebuild and Modify
by Dave Emanuel
The photo you've included in your post, I'm pretty sure, is an updraft. Notice the draincock shown in the upper part of your photo. Also, the part of the bowl that delivers the gas to the carb barrel/jet is shown just below that same draincock, in the photo. Notice too, the gas inlet fitting is located on top of the bowl, as depicted in the photo. I believe those points indicate that the photo depicts the carburetor upside down from its normal operating orientation, i.e. updraft. Those features would all normally be at the bottom of a carburetor.
That maybe the wrong picture. I am on my way to get the book this afternoon
This is a further photo of the model N Winfield that Larry posted (that is my carb in the photo). On the right (throttle body) you can see the poor quality of the casting with the "squigle" line--it should be repaired and the gasket that covered it is not included in the photo. The left side (float body) shows the ring cut with the single fuel inlet--this is different than the later S or SR Winfields. This feature allowed the N Winfield carbs to be rotated 360 degrees without disruption of the float chamber or fuel inlet.
These Winfield N carbs were not for road use--they were for sprint cars or Indy and only made to run wide open. They are big (about ten inches tall) and weigh a couple of pounds.
I believe that down draft carbs were before 1930 but not normally used...I have a second N Winfield on a single cam Fronty and some other down draft Winfields. Regardless, this carb can be updraft, sidedraft or downdraft.
The S and SR Winfields had multiple fuel ports due to the adjustments of low idle, mid range, and top end where this carb is only designed to start and run flat out. Many are pictured in vintage photo's but few remain because they were usless to most people and were probably mostly lost in wrecks.
tim; the size of the main jet tube seems to indicate this particular carb was used for alcohol...also many sidedraft riley cabs were made specifically for alky and full throttle operation under track conditions and applications...
Clever, that Winfield guy. Thanks, Tim.
A downdraft carb would have been a natural for the V engines used by Packard, Cadillac, et al, but the ones I've seen use sidedraft or updraft, and some had complex pressurized fuel systems.
Hood height and fuel delivery methods available in the T era limited the utility of downdraft on inline engines. I think downdraft became practical only after development of the engine mounted mechanical fuel pump.
Just my 3 cents on the subject of downdrafts. My uncle has a Stomberg 97 downdraft that works great with his Fronty head and manual fuel pump on his speedster.
I have attended this run for since 1990, first as a riding mechanic with my dad for 10 years and since then with my wife in my dad's speedster. Dad's car is not currently legal once the grandfather clause expires. I will either change it to fit the rules or take my own speedster being built within those guidelines. As I understand it these rules are in place to help the speedster be recognized as an authentic period happening. The Idea is that they can be as they were in the day and not as they would be built using modern technologies. That said I am sure model t speedsters were still being built in the 30's, but the Santa Clara club has chosen to stay within the Model T era.
Most speedsters are in a steady state of change, This head, that carb, those wheels. It's not a big deal.
Since your car has no generator, do you think you could have run the full event without those SILICON DIODES between the magneto and the battery?
If you think they're having a fit about your Zenith marine downdrafts, just think of what they'd say when they find your "generator"! LOL!
Yes Seth, that's another thing that would disqualify me - I ain't got a chance!
We've decided that we are going to go down to the Speedster Run with the Sun Country Model T Club in Green Valley Arizona on April 19 - 20 and spend our money there instead. They enthusiastically invited us and said that the carburetors and brakes were OK.
That diode charging gizmo of yours has sure done the job. I don't even think about my battery now!
There you go! Sounds like way more fun anyway since there will be far fewer snobs to have to tolerate. Take plenty of pictures - include your beautiful bride in many of them!
Ever notice when somebody doesn't like your rules how you suddenly become snobs & other bad-guy words.
In the first palce there are a few speedsters that run with no generator and get through the day without battery trouble. A good 12 volt battery will run either coils or distributor for several days without a recharge, and nobody cares if run the diode recharge gizmo.
There probably won't be a next year because so many will not enter the event that the snobs put on. I heard they even require a model block. ....geeeees can you believe it!?
Snob isn't any more of a bad-guy word than purist. Speedsters are in a "steady state of change" as Andy has said, and most anything goes.
Yes, everyone will draw the line in the sand in a different place and most purists do not like speedsters.
They don't know what they're missing. Right, Uncle Jack?
Folks,I don't have a dog in this fight. Even so,It is their event and they have every right to run it as they see fit. If anybody doesn't like it,go organize your own.
The Santa Clara chapter has done much to support this hobby for decades, and they have spent the hundreds of hours, year after year, to put on a wonderful event that most people enjoy. Why on earth should they change their rules or format to please a few people who want it changed to fit their personal preferences? There are many people who enjoy it 'as-is'; Should Santa Clara ingnore them?
There is nothing stopping anyone who is willing to put forth the effort from putting on their own event. Advertising is free through the clubs and forums; all it will cost you is a heck of a lot of time and effort. And, for sure, there will still be a few people who will not be satisfied by your rules (or lack of them if it's a truely open event). They will complain on the forum, stir the pot, and more likely then not never organize an event of their own.
It's very easy to complain about something you don't like; much more so then to actually do something. Are those of you that are complaining about the Santa Clara event willing to put forth the effort to put on an event in your area? If so, please share the details so we can decide if we would like to attend. If not, please stop complaining about the events that are put on for the rest of us to enjoy.
Am I a purist? Yep... I try to keep my cars as original as possible. Coils, T carb, etc. Do I like speedsters and non-Ford bodies? Yep... my first T project, started in earnest when I was 12, was a speedster... parked next to my dad's Depot Hack. Am I a snob? Probably depends on who you ask.
My apologies for dragging you into what I considered no fight at all. I just knew that you loved speedsters because you had one and enjoyed driving it. I'm thrilled for Bob that he has found the right "dogs to run with" because he and his car are ready to run.
Yes, rules are rules and there is no reason to bend them. Whether Bob knew the rules up front or not, I don't know, and I don't think it matters. Like I told Jack, I'm glad Bob found his group and I sure hope that he and his bride have the times of their lives.
My apologies for picking on purists because preserving originality most certainly has its place.
Regarding snobbery, if someone asked me about you, I'd say "No, because I've never met the guy but he's never looked down his nose at me, at least in type, but I really don't know."
I guess that topic creates many more lines in the sand.
My apologies if I offended you.
I agree SCVMTFC does an excellent job with the endurance run every year. Great cars great run great day. The guys and gals who organize it put alot of time into it and my hat is off to them all. I understand there standards also because one can get pretty crazy with modifications to a T speedster, plus it is a timed run not for speed so there is really not much need for a ton of speed equipment. yes i know there are other activites around such as hill climbs and time trials that require speed. Anyone who happens to go this year please take plenty of pictures and post them on here.
If anyone is interested, there is a DVD video of the SCVMTFC Endurance run last year, (2007). It is about 25 minutes long and costs $10. All the money goes to support the club and the various events that it puts on. The video gives you an idea of what the run is like, with a little tech inspection, some interviews and pictures of the cars on the run, etc. The purpose of the video is just to encourage the Model T's and the speedsters. I'm the "sales coordinator" at this point, contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org if you are interested.
I was waiting for the name calling. You people crack me up when you call us purists or snobs. Personally I prefer Snoburist, best of both worlds. If we were really purists would we allow Model A Intake,exhaust manifolds and A carbs, 21" A wire wheels? How bout Winfield Model S side or updraft carbs? Or an updraft carb off a thirties Chevy truck. A VW distributer? Would Snoburists allow these items all clearly available after 1927? All are allowed with our rules. When it comes to name calling Seth you are a rank amateur. We have a local Speedster owner with a car so pure of era that it leaks blue oil. Upon hearing our rules in 2004 he christened the Tech committee "Speedster Nazis". Now that is some serious name calling.
It was great of John Sizemore, Dave Paul and Tim Moore to post the info on downdraft carbs. I will bring this all up at the next Tech meeting. While I do not consider the info posted to be enough to change the rule (remember I run an downdraft Winfield S carb),it is a good place to start. I am serousily interested in photos of the Carter and Miller downdraft carbs. A couple of things I find interesting on the carb issue. On the Milleroffy site all the engines shown (Golden Submarine, etc) have Updraft carbs. When Ed Winfield put together his 2 up 2 down engine that beat all the overhead equiped cars in 1928 he used an updraft carb. If downdraft carbs were as common in the twenties as some would have us believe, why didn't Miller and Winfield use them?
NEWS FLASH...NEWS FLASH...NEWS FLASH
Date line Santa Clara: The SCVMTFC Tek Comm. has just announced that starting with the 2009 Endurance Run the use of 10doubleu30 engine oil will not be allowed. All entrants will have to go to their closest Oil Can Henrys oil change shop to get their oil tested. At Oil Can Henrys entrants cars will place their Speedsters over a special treated paper. The oil drips will be collected and sent to a national lab for analysis. The oil filler caps will be sealed with a special self attaching bailing wire to be removed on run day. Any oil with a Carbon date of 1927 or earlier will be allowed.
I find this thread very interesting. I have been on a few speedster runs both as driver and navigator and frankly find the whole exercise to be about as exciting as watching paint dry. Maybe it is because I don't have my own car, but driving 200 miles nose to tail at 30 mph is not my idea of a fun time. Now that you know that I am not from the culture you can take my thoughts on this for what they are worth.
Should Santa Clara try to limit the cars?
Yes! Absolutely. A speedster run is essentially a rolling car show. The club has the right, nay, the responsibility to make sure suitable cars are involved. Lines need to be drawn to do this.
Should dubious or unusual things be allowed?
Not if the aren't wanted. For example, even if a few down-drafts were around in the era, the club has every right to say that they don't want them. The should be able to arbitrarily outlaw anything they want. This might not be in their best interest, but it is their right.
Should Santa Clara make their rules mesh with other clubs?
No. There should be room in this world for special different runs.
Should you not attend if you have to change your car?
That is up to each individual. As for me, I'd vote with my feet and not attend. If enough people felt this way, Santa Clara would change or die.
Is there some better way to accomplish what Santa Clara is seeking?
Possibly. Maybe an incentive program might be a better way. For instance, gig the non-conforming cars rather than disqualifying them. Maybe 200 points for a downdraft carb. 200 points for non-era brakes. 500 points for a visible alternator, 200 for a hidden one, and so on. People could still attend, but would be inspired to make their cars more correct.
Does someone have the right to complain if he's not willing to step up and do his own run?
OK, I've gone on enough. I could say more, but enough is enough (for now).
I don't have a dog in this fight but I will offer my observations. Not having the credentials of those previously posted I can only offer my take on this issue. Being a novice to the Model T world and this site I can truthfully say that I have gained a great deal of knowledge from you all. What I can't understand is how this thread can continue for five days because someone dosen't qualify for an event. If you are a modern day racer you qualify for the rules of the track you are running on and re-tool for the next track's rules. Rules is rules. You can't referee a football game with rules that were in effect ten years ago, same premise. If you want to run the event, make your car qualify and afterwards return it to it's previous state. Loosen up y'all... I think you've finally pushed Gary to the "I've had enough of this crap" stage. Frankly don't blame him. Qualify or stay at home...how difficult is that...life ain't fair. Would you bend "the rules" for the kid that wants to date your daughter using his stadards? Don't think so. This site is supposed to be educational and fun for our hobbie...lets keep it that way. My 2.5 cents worth.Bob
This has indeed been an interesting thread, and some of the "attitudes" are coming to light....lol. Seriously, initially Bob was venting about not being allowed to run due to this events "rules". Indeed, he should have checked more closely first. However, the rules stated that all content must be "period correct, circa 1927". Most of this discussion has been to point out that hydraulic brakes were indeed period correct, and, although not "plentiful", downdraft carburetors also existed. They were even on production vehilcles! Gary was a stand-up guy and agreed to bring any evidence to the club rule committee, great! So, why are some being so defensive? If someone wants to use a period correct downdraft, why can't they? Other than the fact that they probably won't be able to find one. As far as the comment regarding a quadrajet....come on, that's a stretch. Everyone would agree that such a carb is not circa 1927! As new information comes to light regarding the availability of what is period correct, shouldn't we be open to accepting we may be wrong? I know of a man who lost first place in a show with his early Chrysler (with factory hydraulic brakes!) simply because he didn't have an original owner's manual to prove the the judge (a Model T guy) that these were factory brakes! Understanding that this club may want to be restrictive on their speedsters, they could amend the rules to only allow period correct accesories "intended or designed" for the T.
Another Greatrace rule is the intake manifold must be original or proven aftermarket in the year of the car, while the carb can be any updraft or sidedraft for pre-1930 cars. That eliminates the Model A manifold on a T. It also eliminates home made intake manifolds.
If it's not a horsepower race, then it's hard to argue against the above rule.
Here's an example of an aftermarket intake, and carb from a 1911 catalog: