Wooding a 23 Touring

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Wooding a 23 Touring
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Erfert - Flagstaff on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 02:53 pm:

Does anyone have pictures of the wood in a touring form 21 to 23? Is there a book out that has drawings or photos of the wood? I have some photos from past Forums but would like to see completed wood skeletons of the wood without sheet metal. I have wood books but not specificly for the T wood. I am missing some wood that I will need for patterns and could guess and bygolly the rest, but seeing it would really help.
Dick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 05:43 pm:

Dick,

See Jim Eubanks excellent photo series at: http://www.model-t-ford.org/projects/touring_rewooding/touring_rewooding.html which appears to be a 1921-early 1923 style touring body (note I did not see a label – so I could have that wrong but it looks that way from a quick scan of the photos. If someone has a more specific date for the body in the pictures, please let us know.) See also the other rewooding photos on the same site at: http://www.model-t-ford.org/tech_corner.htm in the top left hand corner.

For the front half of the car, the 1923 low cowl roadster article that R.V. Anderson wrote for the Vintage Ford would be very helpful. If you or anyone else would like a copy of that article, please let me know. The MTFCA allows us to share those to promote our club and our hobby. I have your e-mail address from clicking on your name, but I don’t want to fill your in-box with Spam. Also if you have dial up – let me know so I can break it down into more e-mails that are smaller.

I would also recommend you contact Leon Parker (if you click on this thread and go down he has a post at the bottom that has his e-mail – I don’t like to repost those without permission: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/48028.html ) Leon Parker . I know he has some excellent wood plans for the earlier cars and he may have them for the 1921-23 low cowl as well.

See also Ford Wood at: http://www.fordwood.com/ note there 1917-22 is closer to a 1917-20 as the different rear section with more metal and less wood was introduced with / during the 1921 year. So for you 1921-early 23 their 1923-25 rear section displays your car more accurately.

I’ll try to scan a picture from the parts list and post it later if someone else does not already know where a copy is and put it up.

You didn’t ask, but if you have a running chassis – you may want to consider a temp speedster, cut off, etc. body so you can use your chassis this summer while you work on the touring body.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 10:10 pm:

I have good photos from the rear doors back of a Canadian 23 Tourers wood...any use?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Erfert - Flagstaff, AZ on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 11:41 pm:

Hap, thanks a million, I know I can count on you when I have a question. Here in Flagstaff there were many T's with wood beds that look like they were cut off and made into PU's. I have seen photos in the Flagstaff history books that show them and may do that to what I have. It was a touring sometime ago and ended up as a roadster when it was taken apart 30 years ago. I won't have it up and running until late summer probably but am having fun getting all the parts ready. Thanks again and I will run down those links.
Alex, right now I only have the front half but but feel the rear half is around here somewhere. When I get that far I will check back with you. My wife and I are going to our first local club meeting tomorrow and I will know more after that.

Dick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Leon Parker on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 10:49 am:

Dick
If you need rewooding plans I have them for the 1921-25 touring. Send me an e-mail if you need a set. Leon ford1914@bellsouth.net


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 09:50 pm:

Alex,

Yes, please post (and if possible please click on my name, it brings up my profile with my e-mail address – please e-mail higher resolution photos of the 1923 Canadian touring rear section.)

I don’t think it will be of much help to Dick, because I think it still used the same wooden seat frame construction that was used on the Canadian 1914 tourings. I’m not sure about that. I know the Canadians Fords went to the slant windshield, one man top, oval gas tank, lower front seat in 1920 – a few years before the USA production. But I read that while the Canadian front seat switched to the metal seat frame, the rear section continued to be built in the same general manner as the 1914 wood seat frame rear section was built. I don’t know if that continued all the way up through 1925 or if they changed to the metal seat frame and three piece rear section some where along the way. (Also, Does anyone know if the Canadian tourings and roadsters switched to the “more metal” style bodies similar to the USA production 1925 cars?) I’m hoping your 1923 rear section photos will confirm what they used in 1923. By the way – are you fairly sure it was a 1923 Canadian rear section?

If anyone knows when or even if Ford of Canada tourings switched to the metal rear seat frames and the three rather than the 5 piece rear seat section before the 1926 models came out, please let us know.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 12:08 am:

Canadian front seat as per original specs. Very little wooding



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 12:10 am:

Rear seat...copied of original. The original wood is still in most of the car but the back had been left poking out of an open shed and was fairly rotten and filled with borer.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 12:11 am:

Back seat base support


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 12:12 am:

Also copied exactly from original wood


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 12:13 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 12:17 am:

And the finished product.
This body has the 5 piece rear tub. Was assembled/sold in Timaru, New Zealand approx mid (May/June) 1923...All as per original excepting the misfit side mirrrors and windwings :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 12:22 am:

Rear of Car-Canvas hood still needing final fitting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 12:23 am:

Rear of Car-Canvas hood still needing final fitting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 12:24 am:

Rear of Car-Canvas hood still needing final fitting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 12:26 am:

Old makes new :-) was the only machine we had that could handle the canvas! Can't beat the treadle singer sewing machine for strength!



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sven Jakobsson on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 01:07 pm:

Hello Alex,
If you are interested in the age of that Singer, you should visit http://www.singerco.com/support/serial_numbers.html where you can go on and often find information about year and date of manufacture and factory where it was made. A friend of mine has a machine for shoe repairs that was made 1902 in Scotland. My old one is from 1912.
Best regards, Sven


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 06:12 pm:

For Dick,

Short answer: Alex’s excellent photos of the 1923 Canadian touring will not help you very much with a 1921 USA touring. The bodies were built substantially different – especially in the rear tub/rear seat area.

Longer answer: Below is the view of a typical USA 1921-25 touring rear section (the front varies a little as they went from low cowl to high cowl during 1923 (for the 1924 models) and the 1925 USA model would have even more metal in the body replacing some additional wood – such as the metal front door post in 1925 and the square door hinges in 1925). I believe the picture/illustration is from the Sep 1,1923 Price List of Body Parts” (in this case from Bruce McCalley’s Comprehensive encyclopedia’s copy at http://mtfca.com/encyclo/mccalley.htm ; also available from the vendors as a reprint of the Body Price List (Langs T9 has the illustration and & T10 probably would have it; and also the MTFCI Books on CD has the 1923 Body Price list that has that same diagram).



In the illustration above in the rear seat/rear tub area, several metal braces and the metal door post replaced the earlier wooden parts in the USA produced 1915-1920 touring bodies. The illustration also has a metal seat frame front and rear. [Note some USA 1915-into 1916 used a wooden seat frame for both the front and rear seats very similar to the 1914 USA tourings and again during 1918-1919 USA made tourings some were produced with the wooden seat frames. Additionally the Canadian produced tourings from 1914-1919 apparently also used the wooden seat frames front and back. Then the Canadian tourings switched to the new metal seat frame, lower seat, for the oval tank etc. with the 1920 tourings but they continued with the wooden seat frame, and 5 section rear tub until at least 1923.

As you are working on your car, it sounds like you may have different pieces from different cars as well as perhaps some preproduction sheet metal. Number one caution: It is sometimes difficult for an old head T guy to tell which years a piece of tin fits. They all look similar. To someone new to that type of work, it is really easy to get them mixed up. In many case the different year sheet metal will actually fit but just will not be correct / won’t look authentic. For example you can put a USA 1921-25 rear touring section on a 1915-1920 touring body. The doors will even line up and work fine. But it doesn’t take any longer to fit the correct 1915-1920 rear section to the 1915-1920 body as to fit the later one. You can trade out the front seat sections (you would also need to go with an oval tank if you placed the 1921-25 front seat frame in the older 1915-1920 body). So take the extra time to make sure the body you want to put together is a 1921 USA body and then collect all the appropriate sheet metal and braces etc. The number two caution is – the touring and roadster bodies were still produced by different makers. Probably up through the 1923 high cowl model (which is considered a 1924 even if it was built in 1923. Trent shared in a previous posting that to the best of his knowledge all of the USA open car bodies with the high cowl were produced by Ford). The sheet metal from one body maker to the next may or may not fit well on the other body. And of course even two bodies made by the same body maker on the same day would be stretched/bent differently after 80 plus years of service. So even they would not necessarily interchange panels without some work done to make them fit properly. If you have the option of obtaining a “Known” complete body even if the wood is gone, it can help simplify the rebuilding process. In general the earlier the bodies the more the different makers varied and the later the body the closer they were to the same parts/sizes.

For Alex,

Thank you so much for sharing the photos and the information on the 1923 Canadian touring. Are you the lucky owner of that 1923? It is a beautiful car.

Do you happen to know how long Ford of Canada continued the same 5 piece rear tub design and also the wooden rear seat frame? I have not found any solid documentation on that one yet. If you have access to Roger Gardner’s “Ford Ahead, A history of The Colonial Motor Company Limited” [in New Zealand] on page 51 at the bottom they show a picture of the completely knocked down bodies. A stack of right side panels and in the back ground the left side touring body panels and one center back panel. They appear to be pre-1926 as the rear door does NOT have the cut out / arch to clear the rear fender. It is hard for me to tell, but it looks like they have the same general shape as the 1921-25 USA produced rear sections. I.e. 3 piece rear verses the earlier USA 1915-1920 5 piece rear touring section and the Canadian 1915-1923 5 piece rear section. It also looks like they have the hole in the side of the rear quarter panel for the USA style top rest bracket (Lang’s and Ford USA part 3858B). The picture is on the same page with another view of the same Auckland assembly plant. The other picture is dated “in the mid-1920s.” I have cropped down to just the panel we are talking about. That is shown below:



What are your thoughts?

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By johna on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 06:34 pm:

Just a quick question on rewooding and bodies how much space is there around the doors on a 24 touring? I am adjusting the panels and wood and want to set the clearances correctly.
thanks
john


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Erfert - Flagstaff, AZ on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 06:54 pm:

Hap, great picture and information. I am at this point still not sure what I have but the seat frame for the front seat is all metal. There is a 1923 Canadian Touring in our club and I will see if they have pictures of before they covered it with upholstery.
Alex, awsome pictures and they have solved some of my problems of how the metal seat frame goes, as mine was bent and not attached to anything. This is great.
Leon, I will e-mail you and we can talk about the diagrams or drawings. Thanks everyone.
Dick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 07:25 pm:

Hi Hap

That car was my great, great grandfathers and has been in the family since new. It will oneday be mine...it is currently in my Aunts care. I was the major driver/worker in its restoration...but being a complete car having done less than approx 10,000 KMS since new it was a very easy project and very complete (Unlike my 1912 I am working on)

Just wish I could find our family's Model C but still no luck....


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