Kerosene lights

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2005: Kerosene lights
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Sanders on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 01:06 pm:

Anyone know which which sidelights and tail light would be correct for my "23 touring. Do the brackets bolt on the bottom windshield stanchion bolts?
Another newbie question 101, Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken - SAT on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 01:36 pm:

It depends. Is the car "electric equipped"? (Starter, Generator, Battery)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 02:48 pm:

Click on these links:
Typical 1916-23 tail light:
http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/tl10.htm

Typical 16 - 26 side light:
http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sl11a.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie in Houston on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 03:09 pm:

Bob, only the non-electric equiped cars were factory equiped with kerosene side and tail lights in 1923. The mounting would be were you said it would be.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Sanders on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 03:20 pm:

The car is electric equipped.
Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Mullin on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 03:35 pm:

Bob,

Was your car equipped with the starter from the factory, or was it added later? A 1923 without a starter / generator would have had kerosene dash and tail lights as standard equipment.

Many of us like the quaint appearance of the kerosene lights regardless of whether the car came with a starter or not. Probably only important if you want your car judged.

Tom


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Sanders on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 04:11 pm:

Tom- I don't know the original set up of the car. I just like the look of the sidelights. I am looking for the set but I want to make sure I buy the right ones.
Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph Wayne Rudzik on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 05:31 pm:

Bob,
Kerosene lamps were used with the magneto powered headlights in case you had a power surge and fried your bulbs. The idea was that the sidelights would provide enough light to get you home. There was an ear molded to the windshield post to hold the lamps.
Electric, or battery, headlight cars did not have the ear molded to the windshield post and no sidlights. If, however,the customer wanted the sidelights the dealer would put them on and use a bracket that bolts to the windshield post to hold the lamps.
I put a set of lamps on my '20 touring because we had a set of nos lamps and my wife likes them. You can get the brackets from any of the vendors.
Hope this helps ya.

Joe R.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Sanders on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 05:56 pm:

Thanks Joe...now I'm off to find a set.
Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 06:00 pm:

Bob,

Note, the photo on your profile appears to show a really nice high cowl touring. Even if produced in 1923 it would normally be considered a 1924 model year. And from that angle, I cannot see if the door hinges indicate it is a 1924 or a 1925 model. But either way, if you are going for a "correct year" tail light you may want to consider the Ford-O. See page 321 of Bruce McCalley's book "The Model T Ford" or also: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/tl11.htm

Note if that is the picture of your car, and if the windshield mounts have not been changed out, it was originally an electric starter equipped car. Rationale: the car in the picture does not have the windshield brackets that have the side lamp brackets.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Sanders on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 06:35 pm:

Thanks Hap, I will get a photo of the hinges to you. I am placing the 23 date due to the engine number. Didn't know any other way to date it at the time. Would sure like to have the correct date.
Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph Wayne Rudzik on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 09:35 am:

Bob,
The car is probably still original with the newer body and the engine dated for '23. Remember, Ford did not have clear changover dates and would use up the items he paid for.
My '26 roadster is young enough to be a '26, but came with the earlier spindles. My '20 touring has one cast and one of the new stamped steel support brackets at the back seat area.
This isn't bad, though. My '86 Ranger is a transition truck with the older fuel filter and the young teens at O'Realy's keep giving me the one the "computer" demands, the later juice can.
Hope this helps ya.

Joe R.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 07:57 am:

Clarification: Willie sent me an e-mail with the following related item:
“ I have a question on a 1923 windshield with built on mounting brackets. Have you ever seen these brackets? I have seen a lot of earlier windshields with the built on brackets, but I have never any as new as 1923?????”

Response to Willie:

Good question. It turns out that when Ford went to the slant windshield design, they eliminated having two different styles of windshield brackets -- one for starter cars without side lights and one for non-starter cars with side lights. Instead they created a side light bracket that would fit either side and that was held on by the same bolts that held the windshield bracket to the car. Apparently they fielded it in Canada when those cars received the slant windshields and one man tops back in 1920 (3 years before the USA production) but I do not have clear documentation that nothing else was used prior to 1921. So there may have been a one – off or limited run of something else in Canada. Ford used the smaller assembly line in Canada to explore ideas. Such as the flat belt driven Generator so they could have the right hand steering. That one didn’t last long before they modified the steering bracket.

From Bruce’s “Comprehensive Model T Encyclopedia” the price list section for USA:



Below is a picture of a 1921 Canadian Roadster that was an original non-starter car (starter was later added) from Kevin Mowle’s “Only in Canada Article” in the “Vintage Ford”:



And below is a picture from the 1925 touring featured in the article from the Vintage Ford that covered a very original non-starter 1925:



Clearly Ford USA (also Canada) produced tourings and roadsters without the starting equipment and that would have had the oil lamps on the front and rear. On page 466 of Bruce McCalley's "The Model T Ford" they show that 95,026 non-starter equipped tourings were produced in Calendar year 1924 compared with 602,266 starter equipped tourings. So approximately 16% of the tourings in Calendar year 1924 were sold that way. I picked 1924 Calendar year as it would only include the cars with the slant windshields. The 1923 numbers would include some of the earlier straight windshield cars and the 1925 Calendar year would have included a few of the 1926 models.

IMPACT on previous comments: You can add or subtract the side lamps on a slant windshield open car just by adding or removing the brackets. Note, original comment to Bob that if his windshield mounts had not been changed it would have been a starter car, should be changed to say if the side lamp brackets had not been removed sometime in the past, then it was a starter car. Other items to check -- does it have the Mag horn, Mag lights, then probably non-starter etc. Also the amp meter etc. But if you are building a car up -- you could easily make it correct all one way or the other.

Respectfully updated,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


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